CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: footey on November 12, 2008, 10:37:25 PM
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I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but reading the news accounts and box scores, our bench seems unable to do much of anything, especially on offense. Aside from one nice game from Tony Allen the bench has really been anemic. Doc or Danny should consider some kind of shake up if this trend continues. I know that it sounds like sour grapes after winning 8/9, but surely you have been wondering the same thing out there, Celtic fan.
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I feel the same way. Besides Powe our bench is horrible. But not just our bench Rondo looks awful offensively speaking; I thought he worked on that jumper. PP has bailed out this team two straight games, something has to give.
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Rajon Rondo can't score to save his life. How is he going to be an MIP candidate if his shooting touch is worse than last year.
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I think the bench is scoring more per game as well as a higher percentage of the points this year than last year.
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Tommy Heisohn always say that opposing point guards can't keep up with Rondo because he's top 3 quickest in the league. If thats true why he only scoring 7 ppg. He needs to penetrate the way he did in the NBA Finals.
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i think our bench is good with certain types of teams and struggles with others...
we seem to have a tough time scoring against these long athletic teams.... particularly TA.
when he drives to the hoop, these teams like IND, TOR and ATL are collapsing on him, and when Eddie isn't hitting his three's, TA is basically in trouble because he can't beat three guys off the dribble....
that's why i would love to see the Cs pick up another shooter at the SF position....then you can have the option of playing Pierce with Eddie and another sniper to prevent the kind of collapsing defense that can cause us problems..
Baby and Powe i am actually very happy with at this point.
i'm actually happy with the whole bench, but i think we need to add another shooter to the repertoire...
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Tommy Heisohn always say that opposing point guards can't keep up with Rondo because he's top 3 quickest in the league. If thats true why he only scoring 7 ppg. He needs to penetrate the way he did in the NBA Finals.
For one thing they are playing off of him, taking away the drive. But I also suspect he is hurt. Although he played better tonight, over the last few games he has looked a lot like he did last year when he was being hampered by a leg injury. He was still able to play, but was missing the explosiveness that he has when he is completely healthy, making it much harder for him to attack the hoop, which in turn made him hessitant.
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i'm actually happy with the whole bench, but i think we need to add another shooter to the repertoire...
Agreed. In general I am happy with the bench. If I could add one thing right now it would be better shooting -- Pruitt could maybe bring this?
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No.
TA is significantly better than last year and mixes with the starters.
Powe looks better.
BBD looks better.
House isn't shooting well and he needs to improve. The biggest part of his value is hitting 3's to open things up for the guys above.
We'll need to add a guy or two (or find them on our own roster), but the foundation is strong and has the potential to be even better than last year.
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i'm actually happy with the whole bench, but i think we need to add another shooter to the repertoire...
Agreed. In general I am happy with the bench. If I could add one thing right now it would be better shooting -- Pruitt could maybe bring this?
i'd like Gabe to get some minutes.....i'd also like to see Walker get some too, but what i would really like and doesn't need to be soon or anything is a guy who can stroke it from the wing spots...
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Tommy Heisohn always say that opposing point guards can't keep up with Rondo because he's top 3 quickest in the league. If thats true why he only scoring 7 ppg. He needs to penetrate the way he did in the NBA Finals.
For one thing they are playing off of him, taking away the drive. But I also suspect he is hurt. Although he played better tonight, over the last few games he has looked a lot like he did last year when he was being hampered by a leg injury. He was still able to play, but was missing the explosiveness that he has when he is completely healthy, making it much harder for him to attack the hoop, which in turn made him hessitant.
yep Globe and hearld have been reporting since last week that Rondo has a "undisclosed" injury.
All Doc would say is "he's banged up a bit, nothing he can't play through"
I suspect that ankle he twisted that sat him the last 4 games of the preseason myself.
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Right now I think the bench is inconsistent, rather than bad.
There's a good deal of talent on those backup units with Leon Powe, Tony Allen and Eddie House ... plus Glen Davis as a solid role player and defender.
I think the team needs time, especially Tony, to (1) mature as players (2) get accustomed to their new roles.
Eddie House is the only true veteran player on that bench rotation, the rest are young players. Leon Powe is in his third year but really only has half a season of experience. Glen Davis is beginning his second season. Tony Allen is in his fifth year but his career has been stopped regularly by injury, and his roles have changed considerably over time, so overall he's still trying to establish himself as an NBA player. This is a young bench who are still finding their niche and consistency.
In terms of roles changing - Tony Allen has the biggest adjustment and that's fairly clear, now a relied upon member of the second unit and first wing off the bench, big step up from last season. House has the second biggest now that he's the only veteran around without Posey, more responsibility to step into. Then you have Leon who is getting far more touches in the low post and being used as a go-to offensive player rather than a finisher. Leon is also still learning on the defensive end. Lots of change. Glen Davis is playing a similar role to last season.
You also have the changes from Tony Allen to Posey. Having a slasher versus a three point shooter. Having a 6-4 guard versus a 6-8 combo forward. Lot of changes.
To conclude, I think the bench needs time and will as both a unit and as individuals (Tony/Powe) continue to improve throughout the season.
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The bench is terrible...lets be honest
Sam Cassell, Brian Scalabrine, Patrick O Bryant, Gabe Pruitt, Bill Walker, JR Giddens...all guys who cant contribute to this team
I just dont see how having 6 worthless players on the bench is a good thing
Tony allen sucks people...You know it, I know it..hes inconsitent, unreliable and you cringe everytime hes on the court in an important situation
we got eddie house backing up rondo, now I love eddie to death but hes not even a PG, and our only true PG did not get better- LETS BE HONEST his shot might actually be worse
Even the guys who do contribute off the bench are average at best
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I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but reading the news accounts and box scores, our bench seems unable to do much of anything, especially on offense. Aside from one nice game from Tony Allen the bench has really been anemic. Doc or Danny should consider some kind of shake up if this trend continues. I know that it sounds like sour grapes after winning 8/9, but surely you have been wondering the same thing out there, Celtic fan.
Chuckle. You really should read the other TA thread. He's halfway to Springfield.
Seriously, the bench doesn't suck. It isn't particularly good, it most certainly isn't deep and it's certainly missing two critical elements for a title run - a quality backup 5 who can matchup with the bigger, more athletic centers in the league, and a perimeter shooter. Pretty expected, frankly, after the horrid summer Danny had. A slasher doesn't replace a perimeter shooter.
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I don't think Rondo is a good offensive scored. He can make those passed and dishes at the right time, but offensively on the scoring side, hes not much of a threat.
I believe our bench is not the best, even though we lost Posey, we still have some dept.
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A slasher doesn't replace a perimeter shooter, nor is there a need for there to be a replacement. It's a different look and it brings DIFFERENT elements that are just as important.
Our bench has been playing better than it was last year, and yet we won a title with it.
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does our bench suck?
No, but they are inconsitant at the moment. I mean, how soon we forget, the bench WAS our road trip. They looked fine then, but the last two games, everyone has been down.
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Does the bench suck? Just the other day everyone was saying we had the the best bench in the league.
You can't have stellar games every game.
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I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but reading the news accounts and box scores, our bench seems unable to do much of anything, especially on offense. Aside from one nice game from Tony Allen the bench has really been anemic. Doc or Danny should consider some kind of shake up if this trend continues. I know that it sounds like sour grapes after winning 8/9, but surely you have been wondering the same thing out there, Celtic fan.
Could not agree less if it were possible. A few games ago people were saying how cohesive our bench was. Gorman was all over the TV saying this team could be even better because of how well the bench is playing. In more than a few games thus far our starters have not started so well and our bench has come in and picked up the slack and erased deficits and/or extended leads. BBD's post defense has been tremendous on big men. Powe has been for the most part outhustling bigger guys every night. House, while his shot hasn't come around yet(and really, is there anyone foolish enough to believe he's gonna continue to shoot 22% from 3 for the year??) he's been playing solid defense and bringing the ball up the floor and getting the team into the offense without incident(something considered to be an issue coming into this year). Hey sometimes players have bad games. Paul pierce has bad games. But yeah, with all due respect, watch the games. Boxscores don't always do the player's performances justice.
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Does the bench suck? Just the other day everyone was saying we had the the best bench in the league.
You can't have stellar games every game.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Exactamundo. Fighting the urge to issue knee-jerk reactions is hard. One thing though I'd like to see that I saw a bunch durin preseason is Pruitt on the floor in stretches with Eddie House. House had a terrific preseason shooting the rock not JUST being relegated to kickouts as been the case for the most part this season thus far. In the preseason, House was coming off more curls and screens and picks set for him to get his offense going. There's no reason you can't run a play to look for Eddie House's offense. Basically allow him to play both guard spots during the game.
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Anyone that says the bench sucks has just been looking at box scores, which is why this thread was started. True, they've been inconsistent offensively. But they've done exactly what you want your bench to do. Give the team a spark and keep it close for when the starters come back in. Doc was able to keep KG on the bench until 5 minutes left in the 4th. Powe and Davis have improved a lot from last year on the defensive end to give Doc the trust in them to get the job done on that end while KG and Perk are out. I don't think he had that same confidence last year. And it's just like the starters. They're not always on offensively, but as long as they're play tough defense and rebounding and limit turnovers, they're always in the game.
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That's true, as I stated, it was based on the box scores, which showed feeble offensive contributions from the bench the last several games. Obviously if the bench has been playing great defense, I miss that in the box scores.
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I think the problem with our bench is not that it sucks, quite the opposite it is a very good bench, but it is very young. With the exception of Eddie House and Sam Cassell and Brian Scalabrine, of which the latter two barely play and are really players number 14 and 15 on this roster, our bench consists of an inconsistent 5th year pro who really is a third year pro if counting the fact that he missed most of two years due to injury, two third year pros, two second year pros, and two rookies.
That's a lot of youth who are being counted on to be role players and get on the floor and provide consistent results within an inconsistent time frame. It's very difficult to ask of young players and yet due to the talent and intelligence of our young bench players the Celtics have been able to succeed. But, like all young people, they will be inconsistent.
Couple that with the fact that since March of last year Eddie House has been in a terrible regular season slump, and we should expect strings of great games followed by strings of not so great games.
This, for me, is where I believe Danny went wrong this off season. I would have preferred consistent experienced pros where you would know what to expect most games and not some of the inconsistent youth with low risk, high upside potential.
But we have to go forward with what we have and are lucky to have the best, most defensive efficient starting five in the league and one of the by products of a youthful, inconsistent bench is there will be days where the starters will need to carry this team and play extra minutes. Hopefully it won't burn out the starters and the youth will develop.
I'm encouraged by what I see and hope that the bench will play more like the group from the first 7 games and less like the bunch that has played the last two games.
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The bench does not suck, but they are not perfect either.
I really like the Powe-Davis combination down low. Both guys play with a lot of energy, beat the heck out of the oponent physically, and show flashes on offense (Powe's post game and Baby's 15 footer). At the very least, O'Bryant is 6 fouls on the Howard's/Ming's/Bynum's of the playoffs.
Our backup pointguard position is pretty secure for the short and long term between Cassell and Pruitt.
The wings are set for the long term between Walker and Giddens, but the short term issues are troubling. Allen is effective offensively in spurts, but lacks consistency and and outside shot. His liabilities defending small forwards and big guards (length)are more than offset by his tenacity.
I get the feeling that the old Scal-Allen-House combination will be shipped to a team looking to dump an expensive wing before the season ends.
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The bench does not suck, but they are not perfect either.
I really like the Powe-Davis combination down low. Both guys play with a lot of energy, beat the heck out of the oponent physically, and show flashes on offense (Powe's post game and Baby's 15 footer). At the very least, O'Bryant is 6 fouls on the Howard's/Ming's/Bynum's of the playoffs.
Our backup pointguard position is pretty secure for the short and long term between Cassell and Pruitt.
The wings are set for the long term between Walker and Giddens, but the short term issues are troubling. Allen is effective offensively in spurts, but lacks consistency and and outside shot. His liabilities defending small forwards and big guards (length)are more than offset by his tenacity.
I get the feeling that the old Scal-Allen-House combination will be shipped to a team looking to dump an expensive wing before the season ends.
doubt they give eddie a 2 year extension just to toss him into a trade latter, sam ewith TA.
You trade bait is the rooks, pruitt, scal and baby IMO. scal and baby are probley the only one in thier other teams want as of now.
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alright folks! long time lurker first time poster. i decided to pop my cherry in this thread b/c I agrued w/myself about this very topic last night. i think the bench right now is pretty much league average but has great upside (atleast 6-9). This bench needs three things to succeed:
1) Come playoff time they need a vetran post presence. McDyess is available now but looks like he's heading back to Detroit. PJ may be available. Then there are buy-out/mid-winter trad guys . Out of the potentially avaialbe group I like Jeff Foster. Hibbert is behind him and if they fall out of contention early he may be available. It might take one of the Giddens/Walker/Pruit/BBD crew to get it done but 3 of them don't play and the other is addition by subbtraction.
2) They need a shooter. Floor spacing was key to the bench's success last year. Doc has tried to do this w/Ray, Eddie and TA this year it some nights it works but most it doesn't. They need a sniper. I would love to see Korver/Barbosa/Kapono join the green but that's not happening. Danny needs to find the 03 Kevin Millar of outside shooters.
3) A big reason why they need another shooter is Tony is incapable of playing w/in himself. Last year when Doc would spread the floor w/Posey & House and have PP slash the ball would get kicked out and swung to the open man. This year when TA slashes either an off balance shot is thrown up or he dribbles too much trying to find his out and the shot clock winds down (happened 3 times last night). He needs to understand that he is a defense first player that can score rather than a scorer that plays defense. If he doesn't what is his value on the trade market? Can we get a vet big for him and can Walker/Giddens slide into his role by then?
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sorry about how poorly written that was. i was too excited to post for the first time here and got sloppy!
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i've watched all the games so far and i disagree. I think our bench has been strong especially on the defensive side. Our bench is playing better defense than our starters. We've been behind in almost every game right off the bat, and when Doc goes to the bench they usually hold them and we start chipping away. Just look at the last 5 games or so....it seems we've been behind by at least 10 before they even go to the bench and then we come back late in the second quarter. I think Powe and T.A. have been playing great. House started off really poor but he's turned it on the last few games and has hit some key jumpers. Big Baby has also impressed me with his hustle and jump shots. I'm really not sure what you expect from the bench...but i think they are better than what we had last year (even with Posey).
My biggest concern is players getting in foul trouble...especially Perkins. I swear he has 3 to 4 every game by halftime. It drives me nuts.
Hopefully we can convince McDyess to come for some backup!
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On Paper, our bench is flat out terrible....But yes they really get down and dirty defensively - as good or better than anyone in the league. But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
we either need to make some kind of move, or get one of the 6 guys that isnt contributing at all right now, pull their head out of their butt and get em going....Bill Walker? Gabe Pruitt? POB? ...these guys need to be worked into the rotation..at least one of them
And Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. is with Patrick O Bryant? did we sign him to rot on the bench or what?
Darius Miles is looking good right about now...sorry but I guarantee you he'd contribute more than Scal, POB 2 rookies and a guy that cant decide whether or not he can play or wants to coach (Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. IS GOING ON WITH CASSELL)
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On Paper, our bench is flat out terrible....But yes they really get down and dirty defensively - as good or better than anyone in the league. But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
we either need to make some kind of move, or get one of the 6 guys that isnt contributing at all right now, pull their head out of their butt and get em going....Bill Walker? Gabe Pruitt? POB? ...these guys need to be worked into the rotation..at least one of them
And **** is with Patrick O Bryant? did we sign him to rot on the bench or what?
Darius Miles is looking good right about now...sorry but I guarantee you he'd contribute more than Scal, POB 2 rookies and a guy that cant decide whether or not he can play or wants to coach (**** IS GOING ON WITH CASSELL)
we signed him (pob) as a prospect.
sam is more valuable on the bench, if he suits, pruitt sits.
pruitt and walker will work in, this is pretty par for the course with doc, young guys, even those looking good at practice, don't play early. and when they do start to get minutes, its little blips.
also, as a heads up, i'd watch the masked profanities, thier against TOS. ;)
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sorry about how poorly written that was. i was too excited to post for the first time here and got sloppy!
Welcome aboard. +1 TP.
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Benches can only be so good for so long. You are only going to get young players (rookies, 2nd and 3rd year players) or veterans who are on the downside of their careers to comprise a team's bench. When a player does step up, like Posey, one of the Celtics' top bench players last year, then money becomes an issue. So one, a top tier player is not going to want 15-20 minutes coming off the bench and two, a bench player who shows that maybe he deserves more than 15-20 minutes is either going to want to play more or get paid more.
Fortunately for the Celtics, they have players on the bench who are accustomed to a role of being a bench player. They don't demand the ball and will play within a team concept because, for the most part, I think they're happy to be getting paid to play basketball. It's a long season and the Celtics have only lost one out of their first 7 or 8 games. The success of the Celtics still falls on the starting 5 and how well the bench can keep games close while the starters rest. Things aren't that much different from last year and those that remain from last year's bench have a championship year under their belts....so not too much to worry about.
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Does our bench suck?
Yeah, but it also sucked last year. However, I feel our bench right now is better than it was at the same time last year. Our bench can score a whole lot better than last years, and is basically the same defensively. Consider me one of the guys who doesn't miss Posey all that much. With that said we definitely need a SF to cut down on Pierce's minutes.
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Benches can only be so good for so long. You are only going to get young players (rookies, 2nd and 3rd year players) or veterans who are on the downside of their careers to comprise a team's bench. When a player does step up, like Posey, one of the Celtics' top bench players last year, then money becomes an issue. So one, a top tier player is not going to want 15-20 minutes coming off the bench and two, a bench player who shows that maybe he deserves more than 15-20 minutes is either going to want to play more or get paid more.
Fortunately for the Celtics, they have players on the bench who are accustomed to a role of being a bench player. They don't demand the ball and will play within a team concept because, for the most part, I think they're happy to be getting paid to play basketball. It's a long season and the Celtics have only lost one out of their first 7 or 8 games. The success of the Celtics still falls on the starting 5 and how well the bench can keep games close while the starters rest. Things aren't that much different from last year and those that remain from last year's bench have a championship year under their belts....so not too much to worry about.
Good observation. TP for you.
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Does our bench suck?
Yeah, but it also sucked last year. However, I feel our bench right now is better than it was at the same time last year. Our bench can score a whole lot better than last years, and is basically the same defensively. Consider me one of the guys who doesn't miss Posey all that much. With that said we definitely need a SF to cut down on Pierce's minutes.
You dont miss Posey, yet we definetly need a SF to cut down on Pierce's minutes?
one or the other man..without Posey paul has to play the most minutes on this team, and if he doesnt we wont win
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Does our bench suck?
Yeah, but it also sucked last year. However, I feel our bench right now is better than it was at the same time last year. Our bench can score a whole lot better than last years, and is basically the same defensively. Consider me one of the guys who doesn't miss Posey all that much. With that said we definitely need a SF to cut down on Pierce's minutes.
You dont miss Posey, yet we definetly need a SF to cut down on Pierce's minutes?
one or the other man..without Posey paul has to play the most minutes on this team, and if he doesnt we wont win
I'd liek to see what our two backup small forwards have, thats for sure. Even if it's the dreaded (by me) air intangibles, some of these games, we need to see what they provide in backup minutes.
Play walker 4-6 minutes now in some games doc, im begging you.
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I think that the Celtic's slow starts, and Pierce catching fire in the second half has more to do with his minutes being the way they are.
Anyways, the minutes will work themselves out... just as they did last season. We went through this for the entire last season, something that ended up being a meaningless discussion. Do we need to go through it once again?
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I agree, Walker could use some playing time. Even though I do like the wins, we can't wear the TRUTH down to early.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
Couldn't have said better myself.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
If he keeps winning the way we are like last year, I won't see a problem w/ it. Long as he does the right job come June.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
i like that he has a set rotation, i don't like that he has no one in it over 6'9.
I'm not killing the guy, i like doc, bt considering pierce is being forced to play 38+ a night because we have no back up SF, you don't think it would be a good idea to at least see what we have at that position?
saying something other than "doc is awesome!!!" does not constitue him "not being able to win with celtics fans"
I like the man, i can still discuss his decisions.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
i like that he has a set rotation, i don't like that he has no one in it over 6'9.
I'm not killing the guy, i like doc, bt considering pierce is being forced to play 38+ a night because we have no back up SF, you don't think it would be a good idea to at least see what we have at that position?
I think the coach of the team can determine quite well what he has at that position in practice. That he isn't playing Walker and Giddens and Pruitt speaks volumes for where the coaches believe those players are in being able to help this team right now. I don't need for Doc to put out inexperienced rookies and projects to prove to me that they aren't ready yet. I trust his judgment in this.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
i like that he has a set rotation, i don't like that he has no one in it over 6'9.
I'm not killing the guy, i like doc, bt considering pierce is being forced to play 38+ a night because we have no back up SF, you don't think it would be a good idea to at least see what we have at that position?
Considering the way Pierce was handled last season. Considering how many minutes he ended up playing once the season was over. Considering how we've been playing from behind often this early in the season. Considering that Pierce has been our main hot hand in the second half of the games, I think Pierce is playing this much so far for reasons other than lacking a SF.
Though, I'm with you in thinking that it would be a good idea to see what we have at that position, but it's early in the season, there's no real need to find out what we have there currently. I think a couple good starts from our main unit will enable Doc to see what we have, until then, he might need to rely on his rotation to get us through.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
i like that he has a set rotation, i don't like that he has no one in it over 6'9.
I'm not killing the guy, i like doc, bt considering pierce is being forced to play 38+ a night because we have no back up SF, you don't think it would be a good idea to at least see what we have at that position?
Considering the way Pierce was handled last season. Considering how many minutes he ended up playing once the season was over. Considering how we've been playing from behind often this early in the season. Considering that Pierce has been our main hot hand in the second half of the games, I think Pierce is playing this much so far for reasons other than lacking a SF.
Though, I'm with you in thinking that it would be a good idea to see what we have at that position, but it's early in the season, there's no real need to find out what we have there currently. I think a couple good starts from our main unit will enable Doc to see what we have, until then, he might need to rely on his rotation to get us through.
right, and nick, im not advocating some sort of crazy 15 minute a night stretchs for walker and pruitt against contenders, but considering we've had a few wins by double digits, your telling me that its attacking doc's judgment by not wondering why walker and pruitt couldnt get 2-5 minutes in the thunder game? or the pistons once it was clear they were waving the towel?
also, questioning something is not "attacking doc!" unless doc has earned the same status of "NON-BELIVER!!! BURRRRNNN HIMMMM!!!" that terry has earned over on son of sam horn with regards to anything other than terry's awesome, how can he become more awesome! threads. :)
I think doc is a very good coach, and the best one this team could have. All i'm saying is it would be nice to see them for a few minutes during garbage time.
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I find it ironic and rather humorous that last year at this time Doc was getting killed for playing 11 deep and yet this year when he has a set 9 man rotation, people are asking for Doc to expand the rotation and put rookies and projects in. Poor guy. He'll never win amongst Celtic fans.
i like that he has a set rotation, i don't like that he has no one in it over 6'9.
I'm not killing the guy, i like doc, bt considering pierce is being forced to play 38+ a night because we have no back up SF, you don't think it would be a good idea to at least see what we have at that position?
Considering the way Pierce was handled last season. Considering how many minutes he ended up playing once the season was over. Considering how we've been playing from behind often this early in the season. Considering that Pierce has been our main hot hand in the second half of the games, I think Pierce is playing this much so far for reasons other than lacking a SF.
Though, I'm with you in thinking that it would be a good idea to see what we have at that position, but it's early in the season, there's no real need to find out what we have there currently. I think a couple good starts from our main unit will enable Doc to see what we have, until then, he might need to rely on his rotation to get us through.
right, and nick, im not advocating some sort of crazy 15 minute a night stretchs for walker and pruitt against contenders, but considering we've had a few wins by double digits, your telling me that its attacking doc's judgment by not wondering why walker and pruitt couldnt get 2-5 minutes in the thunder game? or the pistons once it was clear they were waving the towel?
also, questioning something is not "attacking doc!" unless doc has earned the same status of "NON-BELIVER!!! BURRRRNNN HIMMMM!!!" that terry has earned over on son of sam horn with regards to anything other than terry's awesome, how can he become more awesome! threads. :)
I think doc is a very good coach, and the best one this team could have. All i'm saying is it would be nice to see them for a few minutes during garbage time.
Where did I say attack or accuse anyone of such a deed?
I said I found it ironic and humorous that people are doing the exact opposite of what they were doing last year at this time. I said I think the coach of the team can determine quite well what he has at that position in practice.
Where was I saying attack? I think you are over assuming my point here. I don't advocate putting players 10-12 into any lineup until they have earned the right to play and Doc has determined that they haven't earned that right yet by observing these players in practice. That's all I amsaying. I trust his judgment there. That's all.
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
and thus why i said thats killing doc. why does what they were saying have anything to do with me asking if he could work rookies into his rotation?
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
and thus why i said thats killing doc. why does what they were saying have anything to do with me asking if he could work rookies into his rotation?
I'm confused. Where did I say you were doing it specifically? If I remember right you were one of the people helping me defend Doc last year, weren't you?
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
and thus why i said thats killing doc. why does what they were saying have anything to do with me asking if he could work rookies into his rotation?
I'm confused. Where did I say you were doing it specifically? If I remember right you were one of the people helping me defend Doc last year, weren't you?
ya, i don't even know what were trying to show each other at this point with qoutes, I think somehow i got it turned around and were saying i was killing doc or soemthing hehe.
I dunno what were even talking about to be honest heh.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
and thus why i said thats killing doc. why does what they were saying have anything to do with me asking if he could work rookies into his rotation?
I'm confused. Where did I say you were doing it specifically? If I remember right you were one of the people helping me defend Doc last year, weren't you?
ya, i don't even know what were trying to show each other at this point with qoutes, I think somehow i got it turned around and were saying i was killing doc or soemthing hehe.
I dunno what were even talking about to be honest heh.
TP for being as equally confused as I was. But I think we will eventually see Pruitt and Walker in extreme blowouts. But even that Detroit game didn't have the feel of being a certain win late when Doc put the bench in and the regular bench had the lead whittled down to 10 points late. But it will happen.
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probabley true, if so my bad, but you said people were "killing doc" with regards to this issue last year, i don't think talking about coaching decisions is "killing" anyone.
Saying things like "doc is a horrid coach" or "doc can't figure out what a rotation is, never mind have one!" is killing doc.
wondering why players, yes even 10-12, can't see the floor for 2-3 measily minutes in games that are already decided for a bit of game time when your talking them both up in the media is not.
Come on crownsy, you were here last year. That's exactly what people were saying. Over and over again. Many, many attacks on Doc last year got extremely personal. He was killed last year for having a long bench, and the Celtics were winning by a much wider margin than this year.
and thus why i said thats killing doc. why does what they were saying have anything to do with me asking if he could work rookies into his rotation?
I'm confused. Where did I say you were doing it specifically? If I remember right you were one of the people helping me defend Doc last year, weren't you?
ya, i don't even know what were trying to show each other at this point with qoutes, I think somehow i got it turned around and were saying i was killing doc or soemthing hehe.
I dunno what were even talking about to be honest heh.
TP for being as equally confused as I was. But I think we will eventually see Pruitt and Walker in extreme blowouts. But even that Detroit game didn't have the feel of being a certain win late when Doc put the bench in and the regular bench had the lead whittled down to 10 points late. But it will happen.
TP on hold as i already gave ya one in the current events section, timers still out heh. but right back at yea. And i agree, just like to see them sooner rather than later.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
I'm not thinking just 9 games, I'm thinking as long as Doc has been coaching the Celts.
...and I'd take one of these rookies over Scal any day.
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But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
You are aware Tony Allen is the leading scorer off the bench on a good shooting %, he gets to the line a good amount for a bench player and he is hitting his FT's at an 87% rate while having been very good on defense. He also turns the ball over less than Powe and he has the ball in his hands alot while playing 20 mpg, which is the most of anybody else off the bench. So what exactly about him sucks, please tell me because i think most Celts fans will agree with me when i say TA has been pretty good this year, even when he hasnt scored much over the last 2 games he hasnt got down and turned it over 4 or 5 times like he used to, he kept playing good D and stayed within himself.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
Last night Doc made the statement of he wanted Pierce and the rest of the starters to play high minutes the first 15games of the season for a couple reasons.One is to get into season shape,two was the first 15 games are ones we need to get because other teams are working out their kinks and getting use to one another.He feels the beginning games set a tone in a way around the league.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
I'm not thinking just 9 games, I'm thinking as long as Doc has been coaching the Celts.
...and I'd take one of these rookies over Scal any day.
I'd take Pruitt, Walker and Giddens over Scal any day too but Doc might be sending a message their way that minutes are to be earned not given. If these guys see Scal in front of them it could motivate then to work harder at practice and hone their skills sharper.
Of course, Doc could just favor vets but he did play Leon, Baby, and Rondo extensively last year.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
Last night Doc made the statement of he wanted Pierce and the rest of the staters to play high minutes the first 15games of the season for a couple reasons.One is to get into season shape,two was the first 15 games are ones we need to get because other teams are working out their kinks and getting use to one another.He feels the beginning games set a tone in a way around the league.Besides not using rookies or new guys are not a part of Doc's thought process or system anyhow.
TP, to qoute carson "I did not know that"
good stuff, makes sense :)
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
Last night Doc made the statement of he wanted Pierce and the rest of the staters to play high minutes the first 15games of the season for a couple reasons.One is to get into season shape,two was the first 15 games are ones we need to get because other teams are working out their kinks and getting use to one another.He feels the beginning games set a tone in a way around the league.Besides not using rookies or new guys are not a part of Doc's thought process or system anyhow.
TP, to qoute carson "I did not know that"
good stuff, makes sense :)
said it in his postgame interview thanks :)
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But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
You are aware Tony Allen is the leading scorer off the bench on a good shooting %, he gets to the line a good amount for a bench player and he is hitting his FT's at an 87% rate while having been very good on defense. He also turns the ball over less than Powe and he has the ball in his hands alot while playing 20 mpg, which is the most of anybody else off the bench. So what exactly about him sucks, please tell me because i think most Celts fans will agree with me when i say TA has been pretty good this year, even when he hasnt scored much over the last 2 games he hasnt got down and turned it over 4 or 5 times like he used to, he kept playing good D and stayed within himself.
Tony cant shoot, hes not a good ball handler, hes not a very smart basketball player..his defense is overrated considering he's always prone to making a key mistake in big situation..his slashing is out of control and you can easily take it away from him in meaningful games and hes extremly inconsistent...and even if tony looks better so far this year that doesnt take very much.
all that being said, I still root for the guy, its just hard sometimes....is it really that hard for you to admit?
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But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
You are aware Tony Allen is the leading scorer off the bench on a good shooting %, he gets to the line a good amount for a bench player and he is hitting his FT's at an 87% rate while having been very good on defense. He also turns the ball over less than Powe and he has the ball in his hands alot while playing 20 mpg, which is the most of anybody else off the bench. So what exactly about him sucks, please tell me because i think most Celts fans will agree with me when i say TA has been pretty good this year, even when he hasnt scored much over the last 2 games he hasnt got down and turned it over 4 or 5 times like he used to, he kept playing good D and stayed within himself.
Tony cant shoot, hes not a good ball handler, hes not a very smart basketball player..his defense is overrated considering he's always prone to making a key mistake in big situation..his slashing is out of control and you can easily take it away from him in meaningful games and hes extremly inconsistent...and even if tony looks better so far this year that doesnt take very much.
all that being said, I still root for the guy, its just hard sometimes....is it really that hard for you to admit?
Not really, its always easy for me to root for him because he plays hard and a hardnosed style. I can understand how he frustrates people, he frustrates me but to say he sucks is flat out wrong, he is not a good shooter but his ballhandling is MUCH better this year, hence why he is only turning it over 1.22 times in 20 minutes a game despite being the primary ballhandler when he is in with House. Also, his drives arent really out of control this year, he has taken some dumb, ugly layups but getting there hasnt been the problem and he has been good at setting up Powe for layups and alot of FT's. Sure he is prone to some mistakes on defense but so far this year he has minimized them and has been a force on defense bewteen man to man and forcing turnovers with his help defense.
As long as he stays under control he is a very nice weapon off the bench because he gives something that not many bench players give, the ablity to blow past anyone and draw fouls which is huge. A good sign for the rest of the season is how good of chemistry that Tony/Powe/House have shown together, theres a reason most of the season the 2nd unit has got the Celts back into the game after the starters have feel behind. So yeah i dont think TA is a star or close to it but he is a good player off the bench as long as his mind is right which it seems to be so far this year.
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But cmon guys Tony allen is a disaster and Leon Powe/BBD/House are our best players off the pine with 6 guys that cant offer the team anything.
You are aware Tony Allen is the leading scorer off the bench on a good shooting %, he gets to the line a good amount for a bench player and he is hitting his FT's at an 87% rate while having been very good on defense. He also turns the ball over less than Powe and he has the ball in his hands alot while playing 20 mpg, which is the most of anybody else off the bench. So what exactly about him sucks, please tell me because i think most Celts fans will agree with me when i say TA has been pretty good this year, even when he hasnt scored much over the last 2 games he hasnt got down and turned it over 4 or 5 times like he used to, he kept playing good D and stayed within himself.
Tony cant shoot, hes not a good ball handler, hes not a very smart basketball player..his defense is overrated considering he's always prone to making a key mistake in big situation..his slashing is out of control and you can easily take it away from him in meaningful games and hes extremly inconsistent...and even if tony looks better so far this year that doesnt take very much.
all that being said, I still root for the guy, its just hard sometimes....is it really that hard for you to admit?
alot of that is persoanl opnion and not in fact based on any kind of objective anyalsis. all that being said, I'm not a TA booster, but he's been good so far this year for a bench guy. Is that really so hard for you to admit?
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Look, I think Tony is fine in the regular season...and he's played a few good games and a few bad ones
Come playoff time he's just not trustworthy IMO and cant be on the floor in big situations, and I find it hard to believe anyone thinks differently about that...you want TA on the floor in a tight playoff game/series?
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Look, I think Tony is fine in the regular season...and he's played a few good games and a few bad ones
Come playoff time he's just not trustworthy IMO and cant be on the floor in big situations, and I find it hard to believe anyone thinks differently about that...you want TA on the floor in a tight playoff game/series?
Nobody knows that yet, but i think itd be more than fair to give him this season to see how he plays as the first option off the bench for a championship level team before we say we cant trust him in the playoffs. Last year would i have trusted him? No because his injury was in his head and easily got down on himself but he seems very confident this year knowing he is going to play alot and that the rest of the team really trusts him.
IMO i think for us to win a title we need him to be at his best so ill give him the benefit of the doubt. If he starts turning the ball over alot and let it get in his head again then itll be a different story, but the Tony we have seen so far this year i have no problem playing 15 mpg in the playoffs.
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Look, I think Tony is fine in the regular season...and he's played a few good games and a few bad ones
Come playoff time he's just not trustworthy IMO and cant be on the floor in big situations, and I find it hard to believe anyone thinks differently about that...you want TA on the floor in a tight playoff game/series?
ask me when we get to one, im not in the habit of making snap judgments after 9 games.
but, this TA that's playing right now? sure.
TA from last year? nope.
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To paraphrase Rick Pitino in Roy's sig:
The negativity round here sucks.
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I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but reading the news accounts and box scores, our bench seems unable to do much of anything, especially on offense. Aside from one nice game from Tony Allen the bench has really been anemic. Doc or Danny should consider some kind of shake up if this trend continues. I know that it sounds like sour grapes after winning 8/9, but surely you have been wondering the same thing out there, Celtic fan.
Our bench is fine - talent wise.
Production wise - we're not getting enough out of them. Specifically...
Eddie House - he's missing both uncontested and contested 17 footers and 3-balls, very frustrating
Tony Allen - had a fantastic game in Detroit (i was in attendance in the 3rd row) but hasn't been able to get to the line consistently on a nightly basis
Leon Powe - is easily our most consistent bench player
Big Baby - is still a work in progress but he's getting better at rotating and is showing good development with his jumper
I think that's where were at right now with our bench. If Eddie was hitting at a higher clip and Tony got to the line more often I don't think we'd have such an overraction to our bench's lack of production.
That's my 2 cents.
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my take on the subject...
Eddie House is a pure shooter, thats what he does. we'll take him having a cold hand as long as he can run the second offense, which he HAS been doing so far. He's missed some open threes but he's getting open three's...they'll fall eventually.
Tony Allen had an amazing night in detroit becuase paul was in EARLY foul trouble. the past few games after we haven't needed offense from tony allen we've needed defense, so he plays his role and shuts down the other teams best scorer at the end of the game.
Leon Powe can get to the line EVERY TIME if he wanted to...which is awesome for getting his defenders in foul trouble. But he's got to improve on his free throw shooting. Literally thats the only flaw.
Big Baby- nice to see the midrange jumper opening up, and its also nice to see that here in boston we can appreciate a basketball player that does the small things EX: does an amazing job boxing out and putting a body on people (thats right plural) he may not get the rebound be he's getting it for the team, very good understanding of the way the game works esspecially for a big man. if BBD can become a more efficiant shooter he good be our secret weapon off the bench. also very good defensively
Gabe Pruitt- can run the offense and has really good scoring ability. but hasn't played so doesn't matter
Bill Walker- still trying to do too much when he gets out on the floor, but to his credit he only plays for the last three minutes in blowout wins, so why not try to make the highlight reel
JR Giddens- i'm excited to see him play once he catches up on the offense. from watching him with NM he's a really good scorer, and a nasty defender.
POB- lazy and making me look bad on the board for sticking for him.
Scal- don't hate
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To paraphrase Rick Pitino in Roy's sig:
The negativity round here sucks.
I don't see much negativity, rather a lot of bipolarism. A few days ago the bench was extraordinary and was winning us the games, now it sucks.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle: it's not a top-notch bench, it doesn't have the Lakers' one quality, nor the depth of Indiana or the quality and depth of Houston. On the other hand, there are far worse benches on the league. For the regular season, this bench, including the guys who are out of the rotation, is more than enough. For the play-offs, I'm not so sure. PO basketball has a premium on consistency, heady play, experience and size, and this bench has some flaws.
As for Bill Walker, what do people want to see now that they didn't see in the pre-season?
but, this TA that's playing right now? sure.
TA from last year? nope.
Which TA played the last 2 games?
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The bench does not suck.
It is not a playoff ready bench. I think there needs to be some player adjustments.
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The bench does not suck.
It is not a playoff ready bench. I think there needs to be some player adjustments.
TP Wide Load you've been saying it for months. It's not a bad bench and it will do for now. We will most likely see an addition or two come playoff time.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
I'm not thinking just 9 games, I'm thinking as long as Doc has been coaching the Celts.
...and I'd take one of these rookies over Scal any day.
I'd take Pruitt, Walker and Giddens over Scal any day too but Doc might be sending a message their way that minutes are to be earned not given. If these guys see Scal in front of them it could motivate then to work harder at practice and hone their skills sharper.
Of course, Doc could just favor vets but he did play Leon, Baby, and Rondo extensively last year.
I came to the same conclusion when I thought about it earlier, but still. At least let Gabe get that burn he's been here for a year and from all indications he's put in the work.
As for him playing Rondo, Leon, and Powe he really didn't have much of a choice. Leon proved he deserved time by producing almost every time he was on the floor. Rondo was our only point guard and it was his job to lose from the start. Baby was one of the few big men we had last season.
I think Doc will play young guys if they show they can be productive in a real game with meaningful minutes. The problem is that its almost impossible for a guy to get those meaningful minutes and be productive.
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the bench is merely okay... i still would much rather have posey over tony allen. the problem doesn't have to do with our bench but rather the slow starts we always have.
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As long as Scal is on the active roster. As long as Scal gets in the occasional game when it's not a blow out, I can never completely trust Doc's rotations.
When it comes to Doc's rotations I sometimes wonder. Is it the young players not being ready or the vets being favored?
Lets take a breath here. It IS only game 9 and in 5 of the games, i wouldn't have wanted a rookie anywhere near the floor (clev, Det, Atl, Hou, bucks)
so, doc hasent exactly had a lot of time to even do the 2-4 minutes a game for walker and pruitt im advocating. not sure we can say anything about his "trust" level. we needed those games, and thus needed our core bench.
Last night Doc made the statement of he wanted Pierce and the rest of the staters to play high minutes the first 15games of the season for a couple reasons.One is to get into season shape,two was the first 15 games are ones we need to get because other teams are working out their kinks and getting use to one another.He feels the beginning games set a tone in a way around the league.Besides not using rookies or new guys are not a part of Doc's thought process or system anyhow.
TP, to qoute carson "I did not know that"
good stuff, makes sense :)
said it in his postgame interview thanks :)
TP for mentioning what Doc said. It makes a ton of sense. Doc didn't want his starters to report to camp early and the bench played a ton of minutes in the preseason so he using the first 15 games or so to overextend the starters minutes if need be to establish a good rhythm and for the reasons you mentioned.
If Doc stays true to his word and starts to shorten the minutes for the starters then games 15 through 40 are going to be crucial for the bench players to prove they are worthy of playing a role for the stretch run beyond the trade deadline. I think or at least I'm hoping you'll see Walker, Pruitt, POB, Scal get some spot meaningful minutes during this time.
Getting back to the subject line. If you take away the last 2 games the bench has played very well. In fact after the starters have come out flat in most of these games the bench has gotten them back in games. If you think about it if wasn't for our bench we could have a couple extra losses. They hardly suck at all.
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To paraphrase Rick Pitino in Roy's sig:
The negativity round here sucks.
I don't see much negativity, rather a lot of bipolarism. A few days ago the bench was extraordinary and was winning us the games, now it sucks.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle: it's not a top-notch bench, it doesn't have the Lakers' one quality, nor the depth of Indiana or the quality and depth of Houston. On the other hand, there are far worse benches on the league. For the regular season, this bench, including the guys who are out of the rotation, is more than enough. For the play-offs, I'm not so sure. PO basketball has a premium on consistency, heady play, experience and size, and this bench has some flaws.
As for Bill Walker, what do people want to see now that they didn't see in the pre-season?
but, this TA that's playing right now? sure.
TA from last year? nope.
Which TA played the last 2 games?
your right, first 7 games don't count.
i forgot that we only judge players by the last 15 minutes here on the blog. ::)
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Look, I think Tony is fine in the regular season...and he's played a few good games and a few bad ones
Come playoff time he's just not trustworthy IMO and cant be on the floor in big situations, and I find it hard to believe anyone thinks differently about that...you want TA on the floor in a tight playoff game/series?
He plays great defense. We play reasonably well with him on the floor. His turnovers are down. I can live with it.
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Look, I think Tony is fine in the regular season...and he's played a few good games and a few bad ones
Come playoff time he's just not trustworthy IMO and cant be on the floor in big situations, and I find it hard to believe anyone thinks differently about that...you want TA on the floor in a tight playoff game/series?
He plays great defense. We play reasonably well with him on the floor. His turnovers are down. I can live with it.
Bottom line...lets get McDyess in here to anchor it up a little more!
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TA has great defense but he is soooooooo sloppy and out of control on offense most of the time. Where's Posey? :-[
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posey? powe and tony's defense + houses shooting more than makes up for our "devestating loss"
the problem with our bench is that we need for POB to step up and stop wasting a roster spot.
and Pruitt needs to play.
now is the time to be testing these players, doc has been playing the bench like we're in the playoffs (which is good to see) but how are these guys gonna gel and form together if they're just watching? i understand walker and JR are rookies and rookies don't need to play on a defending championship team that is bassically all back. but pruitt has atleast warranted a shot becuase of his preseason performance.
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Why do people keep complaining about TA's sloppyness when it has barely been an issue, if an issue at all, this season?
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posey? powe and tony's defense + houses shooting more than makes up for our "devestating loss"
This "Player A + Player B = Player C" stuff is bogus.
This just shows that you have to play two guys instead of one, which means you have to sit someone else.
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I don't see our bench working out throughout the whole season as is. With our bench now, it forces our starters to play more minutes, and Eddie House to throw up more shots. If We keep losing to sorry teams this year, we have a chance of losing homecourt in the playoffs, and we all know how well our Celts play on the road in the post season...Cleveland is the biggest threat in the East, with a close 2nd behind Detroit, And the Lakers will own the West this year, probably taking the title of most season wins in the league. We need a bench upgrade ASAP, even if it is Marbury and or Bonzi Wells.
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Why do people keep complaining about TA's sloppyness when it has barely been an issue, if an issue at all, this season?
i agree that it is not so much sloppiness or inconsistency (the two most common tags put on him) that is the problem for TA.
I think he just matches up better against some teams than he does others.
teams that are long and athletic are able to collapse on his drives and basically take him out of the game offensively.
but then you have more straight up D teams like DET and he goes to town...
the problem i see is that we don't have another option on nights when TA is not a good matchup...
i also wouldn't mind still having a guy like Pollard around with a little more height to come in in certain situations and fight like hell for 5 mins...knock a few bodies around.
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posey? powe and tony's defense + houses shooting more than makes up for our "devestating loss"
This "Player A + Player B = Player C" stuff is bogus.
so is overrating a bench player from last year to a ridiculous degree.
james posey= chuck norris, and this is coming from a guy with posey high on his binky list.
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To paraphrase Rick Pitino in Roy's sig:
The negativity round here sucks.
I don't see much negativity, rather a lot of bipolarism. A few days ago the bench was extraordinary and was winning us the games, now it sucks.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle: it's not a top-notch bench, it doesn't have the Lakers' one quality, nor the depth of Indiana or the quality and depth of Houston. On the other hand, there are far worse benches on the league. For the regular season, this bench, including the guys who are out of the rotation, is more than enough. For the play-offs, I'm not so sure. PO basketball has a premium on consistency, heady play, experience and size, and this bench has some flaws.
As for Bill Walker, what do people want to see now that they didn't see in the pre-season?
but, this TA that's playing right now? sure.
TA from last year? nope.
Which TA played the last 2 games?
your right, first 7 games don't count.
i forgot that we only judge players by the last 15 minutes here on the blog. ::)
Tony Allen's problem is that he's very inconsistent. He had a big game in Detroit, a couple of solid games, a couple of underwhelming games, a couple of terrible games... some plays he made recently are game-changers. Do you remember the last possession of the 1st half in the game vs. Atlanta? That kind of mistake can seal or change the momentum in a elimination game and he makes way too many of those. His inconsistency will be a very big handicap during the play-offs, especially if he's our only swingman on the bench. Hopefully he'll change till then.
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With the exception of House it sure sucked last night, and has sucked pretty bad all week. Last night Denver's bench totally dominated the Celtics, as much with attitude as anything else.
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I haven't been able to watch the last few games, but reading the news accounts and box scores, our bench seems unable to do much of anything, especially on offense. Aside from one nice game from Tony Allen the bench has really been anemic. Doc or Danny should consider some kind of shake up if this trend continues. I know that it sounds like sour grapes after winning 8/9, but surely you have been wondering the same thing out there, Celtic fan.
We knew this before the season started that our bench was quite nearly not deep enough, but wasn´t addressed due to lack of cap space or owners not wanting to go more into the luxury tax.
Our starting team is not going to keep up this pace (8-2) for the rest of the season, but if they do there is always playoff to look at which will be just simply too much for them. We simply MUST trade people from the bench and shake things up. Talking about shaking things up, I cant believe we are not using O´Bryant or any of the other two rookies! What have we got to loose in giving them minutes here and there??? If they play badly then they are just giving starters a time for a bit of a rest or keeping other bench players on their toes to add the competitiveness.
But what I have seen so far, we are a weaker team since last year and perhaps with people happy with the one ring they got. We do need to make a trade that includes getting rid of Scalabrine´s salaries so we could get in half decent PF/SG/PG
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I thought we were supposed to win now? I'm not satisfied with one ring and I know none of you are. We NEED to make some moves on the bench, because we will not win again with what we have now! I hope Doc's not happy with making the playoffs and losing in the ECF/Finals or maybe choking even earlier. I love Scal but he's a waste of cap space I know somebody in the league would take him. This is his final year right? Well the big 3 will be another year older when he's finally gone and our chances to win again get even slimmer.
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Except for Eddie House's performance last night, this bench has sucked for three straight games. One game happens. Two games is a four man slump or con be chalked up to being tired. Three games is a trend. I don't like bad trends.
Leon is becoming a black whole and far three games in a row has been out worked and out athleticized under the glass.
Baby is what he is. He'll throw his body around, create rebounds for other, make an occasional outside shot and play good defense. He looks better when the players he plays with are playing well. He doesn't look so good when those players surrounding him are playing like crap because he is incapable of making players around him better.
Eddie was one last night but if his shot isn't falling, like most of the rest of the season, he's pretty much adding nothing to this team.
And then there's my favorite Tony Allen. For 7 games Tony could do no wrong. But has he done anything right in three games? His was yanked of the floor by Doc for two straight games after making boneheaded plays. Obviously Doc is only giving Tony a short rope and Tony needs to rescue himself with it or hang himself with it. The last three games Tony's done a good job of tying a hangman's noose.
And the rest of the bench I am assuming is just not good enough to have either earned the minutes to player or they just aren't good period. Either way, it's not good.
So does the bench suck. No, I think they are slumping a bit and maybe got a little to big for who they really are and some reality hit them in the face. This group needs to way outwork anyone they play and they haven't been doing that. Allowing a 9-1 rebound advantage go to 20 -12 the other way while the second unit primarily made up the team at the time is disgraceful. So is scoring an average of about 13 PPG and getting 6 RPG over a three game stretch.
Let's pick it up guys, you're better than that.
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Except for Eddie House's performance last night, this bench has sucked for three straight games. One game happens. Two games is a four man slump or con be chalked up to being tired. Three games is a trend. I don't like bad trends.
Leon is becoming a black whole and far three games in a row has been out worked and out athleticized under the glass.
Baby is what he is. He'll throw his body around, create rebounds for other, make an occasional outside shot and play good defense. He looks better when the players he plays with are playing well. He doesn't look so good when those players surrounding him are playing like crap because he is incapable of making players around him better.
Eddie was one last night but if his shot isn't falling, like most of the rest of the season, he's pretty much adding nothing to this team.
And then there's my favorite Tony Allen. For 7 games Tony could do no wrong. But has he done anything right in three games? His was yanked of the floor by Doc for two straight games after making boneheaded plays. Obviously Doc is only giving Tony a short rope and Tony needs to rescue himself with it or hang himself with it. The last three games Tony's done a good job of tying a hangman's noose.
And the rest of the bench I am assuming is just not good enough to have either earned the minutes to player or they just aren't good period. Either way, it's not good.
So does the bench suck. No, I think they are slumping a bit and maybe got a little to big for who they really are and some reality hit them in the face. This group needs to way outwork anyone they play and they haven't been doing that. Allowing a 9-1 rebound advantage go to 20 -12 the other way while the second unit primarily made up the team at the time is disgraceful. So is scoring an average of about 13 PPG and getting 6 RPG over a three game stretch.
Let's pick it up guys, you're better than that.
I agree with it all except for Eddie adding nothing when his shot isn't falling. He is a very aggressive defender that creates havoc. He brings a huge amount of energy to the team when he is out there which is IMO the #1 thing that we don't have right now and is costing us. He has a much more rounded game than Rondo does. If the man could handle the ball then HE'D be the starting PG on this squad.
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Doc promised us a better showing in Milwaukee from the bench when asked the question after the Denver lost.I will have to give him the benefit of the doubt until after the game .As a previous poster stated it becomes a trend after a certain amount of games when you suck.TP for that statement Nick.
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posey? powe and tony's defense + houses shooting more than makes up for our "devestating loss"
This "Player A + Player B = Player C" stuff is bogus.
so is overrating a bench player from last year to a ridiculous degree.
I think "overrating" is pretty subjective, since it depends on how you "rate" a player, and everyone has his own set of values when it comes to evaluating a player.
Posey may be overrated, but not to a ridiculous degree, imo.
Posey is the epitome of a "glue guy", a type of player that is as rare as good big men, although with lesser impact. If you can get someone like that for the MLE, you take it.
I don´t say "Bring Posey back", because I know that´s not going to happen.
What I say is "Bring someone in to replace what Posey gave us", because we don´t have that right now and I think we´ll need it.