Lebron’s Histrionics

[celticsclay]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?  I think we get the point I was making.

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

This doesn't track for me - if we figure Be Like Mike came out in 1991, Space Jam came out in 1996, and Jordan's last ring came in 1998, you think all the kids born in the late 80's and early 90's who are dyed in the wool Jordan GOATers are going to die off in 20-30 years?

What's your explanation for a mass extinction event for people in their late 50's and early 60's?

Lol this is a pretty hilarious response to a silly point. Tommy point.

[Roy H.]

Pharmies or working out/sleeping/eating right. Staying up late to gamble he does not.

In my mind, it's probably all of the above.  Lebron reportedly spends $1 million per year working on his body.  My guess is that a percentage of that might include a few designer "supplements".  Of course, I feel the same way about Tom Brady, which I know is a very taboo topic in Boston.  I just don't think that clean living adds 10 years to somebody's prime, even among the best of the best.

I personally wouldn't be opposed to leagues allowing monitored PED use, particularly for recovery purposes.  They're modern medicine and can be safe and effective if used properly.  But, I do suspect that a lot of athletes' longevity is a result of dabbling with drugs that are legally prohibited.

except we don't really see players playing longer.  In fact they play less games, less minutes, and generally the same amount of years.  Every generation seems to have a player or a few that are quite simply genetic freaks of nature.  You had Wilt (didn't get the years, but was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen), you had Kareem, you had Malone, you had Duncan/Kobe/KG, and you have Lebron.  Those guys just took care of themselves and were professional off the floor as well as on it (when it comes to fitness).  That helps a great deal, but even then you just have to have the right genetics and a certain amount of luck to avoid the devastating injury.   

I have no idea if Lebron is using, but I suspect most players are and have been since the dawn of performance enhancing drugs, but only a handful end up with the longevity and skill necessary to play at a high level for 20 years.

None of those guys were putting up the same performance at 38 as they were at 28.  Guys don't get better in their late 30s.  That's not being a "genetic freak", that's Lance Armstrong level absurdity.

[celticsclay]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

It’s interesting to me that Kobe — largely a ball-hogging chucker accused of rape — seems to be embraced more than Lebron.

Yeah, and that was even before his premature death. 

Personally, I think he's one of the most overrated greats of all time & was a bit of a snake but that's just me.

I'm sure once we're years removed from Lebron's retirement, he'll get more shine.

I think kobe was getting a lot of credit for supporting woman’s athletics and how involved he was in his daughters lives. I’m sure plenty of these players are doing the same but is was particularly under the spotlight and I think his daughters were also becoming role models. Doesn’t discount any of the negative things, particularly the rape charge, just why his reputation kind of improved.

[Moranis]

Pharmies or working out/sleeping/eating right. Staying up late to gamble he does not.

In my mind, it's probably all of the above.  Lebron reportedly spends $1 million per year working on his body.  My guess is that a percentage of that might include a few designer "supplements".  Of course, I feel the same way about Tom Brady, which I know is a very taboo topic in Boston.  I just don't think that clean living adds 10 years to somebody's prime, even among the best of the best.

I personally wouldn't be opposed to leagues allowing monitored PED use, particularly for recovery purposes.  They're modern medicine and can be safe and effective if used properly.  But, I do suspect that a lot of athletes' longevity is a result of dabbling with drugs that are legally prohibited.

except we don't really see players playing longer.  In fact they play less games, less minutes, and generally the same amount of years.  Every generation seems to have a player or a few that are quite simply genetic freaks of nature.  You had Wilt (didn't get the years, but was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen), you had Kareem, you had Malone, you had Duncan/Kobe/KG, and you have Lebron.  Those guys just took care of themselves and were professional off the floor as well as on it (when it comes to fitness).  That helps a great deal, but even then you just have to have the right genetics and a certain amount of luck to avoid the devastating injury.   

I have no idea if Lebron is using, but I suspect most players are and have been since the dawn of performance enhancing drugs, but only a handful end up with the longevity and skill necessary to play at a high level for 20 years.

None of those guys were putting up the same performance at 38 as they were at 28.  Guys don't get better in their late 30s.  That's not being a "genetic freak", that's Lance Armstrong level absurdity.

Lebron is no where near the defender he was 10 years ago.  He doesn't have the stamina either and takes a lot more games off.  Offensively he is no where near as efficient either.  Sure he is scoring 30, but he is doing it on 23 shots, which is basically the most in his career (he had 23.1 in his 3rd year).  Lebron is doing amazing things, no doubt, but he is no where near the player he was at his peak.   

[bdm860]

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

I don't think most really care about all-time career records, or let it sway their opinions much (most of the time anyway), as it's more about longevity than greatness (though there is some overlap between the two).


There's very few people that claim Kareem is the greatest despite holding the scoring record, most MVPs, most All-Star appearances, 6 titles, etc.

I don't think most people consider Stockton the greatest point guard of all time, despite the seemingly insurmountable assist and steals records.

I will say there seems to be exceptions for Wilt (seemingly ridiculous single season records) and Russell (titles).

In baseball, I don't think most people thought of Hank Aaron as the greatest ever despite having the home run (before the juiced ball era), RBI, extra base hits, and total bases records.

There was a quiz with the 2017 rookies (unfortunately video seems to be set to private now but you can read our reactions to it), where most of them didn't know who the NBA all time points leader was (with most of the wrong answers saying Wilt based off my own comment).

Sure us basketball nerds know them, and will use them to debate each other, but it's not what most people are using to form their opinion of greatness.



Jordan also has those special asterisks to his career, much like Babe Ruth, that actually help the legend.

What if Babe Ruth didn't spend his first 6 years as a pitcher?  What if the baseball played 162 games during his time?

What if Jordan didn't retire the first 2 times?  What if Jordan didn't have to deal with hand checking?

The "what ifs" just make the legends even more compelling. 



It seems like records don't determine greatness, but greatness determines if you get to use the records in a debate. Ha.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

I don't think most really care about all-time career records, or let it sway their opinions much (most of the time anyway), as it's more about longevity than greatness (though there is some overlap between the two).


There's very few people that claim Kareem is the greatest despite holding the scoring record, most MVPs, most All-Star appearances, 6 titles, etc.

I don't think most people consider Stockton the greatest point guard of all time, despite the seemingly insurmountable assist and steals records.

I will say there seems to be exceptions for Wilt (seemingly ridiculous single season records) and Russell (titles).

In baseball, I don't think most people thought of Hank Aaron as the greatest ever despite having the home run (before the juiced ball era), RBI, extra base hits, and total bases records.

There was a quiz with the 2017 rookies (unfortunately video seems to be set to private now but you can read our reactions to it), where most of them didn't know who the NBA all time points leader was (with most of the wrong answers saying Wilt based off my own comment).

Sure us basketball nerds know them, and will use them to debate each other, but it's not what most people are using to form their opinion of greatness.



Jordan also has those special asterisks to his career, much like Babe Ruth, that actually help the legend.

What if Babe Ruth didn't spend his first 6 years as a pitcher?  What if the baseball played 162 games during his time?

What if Jordan didn't retire the first 2 times?  What if Jordan didn't have to deal with hand checking?

The "what ifs" just make the legends even more compelling. 



It seems like records don't determine greatness, but greatness determines if you get to use the records in a debate. Ha.

There are certainly a lot of "what ifs" or "potential asterisks" in sports: juiced baseballs vs. dead baseballs, modern athletic training methods and nutrition knowledge, the NFL now having a 17-game regular season instead of 16-game, more teams now, and on and on. This stuff certainly feeds the debate machine! As long as everyone recognizes that my opinions are the correct ones.

[Moranis]

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

I don't think most really care about all-time career records, or let it sway their opinions much (most of the time anyway), as it's more about longevity than greatness (though there is some overlap between the two).


There's very few people that claim Kareem is the greatest despite holding the scoring record, most MVPs, most All-Star appearances, 6 titles, etc.

I don't think most people consider Stockton the greatest point guard of all time, despite the seemingly insurmountable assist and steals records.

I will say there seems to be exceptions for Wilt (seemingly ridiculous single season records) and Russell (titles).

In baseball, I don't think most people thought of Hank Aaron as the greatest ever despite having the home run (before the juiced ball era), RBI, extra base hits, and total bases records.

There was a quiz with the 2017 rookies (unfortunately video seems to be set to private now but you can read our reactions to it), where most of them didn't know who the NBA all time points leader was (with most of the wrong answers saying Wilt based off my own comment).

Sure us basketball nerds know them, and will use them to debate each other, but it's not what most people are using to form their opinion of greatness.



Jordan also has those special asterisks to his career, much like Babe Ruth, that actually help the legend.

What if Babe Ruth didn't spend his first 6 years as a pitcher?  What if the baseball played 162 games during his time?

What if Jordan didn't retire the first 2 times?  What if Jordan didn't have to deal with hand checking?

The "what ifs" just make the legends even more compelling. 



It seems like records don't determine greatness, but greatness determines if you get to use the records in a debate. Ha.

There are certainly a lot of "what ifs" or "potential asterisks" in sports: juiced baseballs vs. dead baseballs, modern athletic training methods and nutrition knowledge, the NFL now having a 17-game regular season instead of 16-game, more teams now, and on and on. This stuff certainly feeds the debate machine! As long as everyone recognizes that my opinions are the correct ones.

segregation, rampant cheating during certain eras, and plenty of others.  That is what makes it so hard, but also so much fun to debate such silly things.

[Big333223]

Lebron's hissy fit was one of a person unaccustomed to not getting absolutely everything he wants from the refs at all times.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Kobe would have said something to the ref, and then would have taken 16 shots in OT.

I guess I could see Dwight doing this.  He's always been a clown.

But, the "picture this" exercise is funny.  It cracks me up trying to envision Tim Duncan carrying on like that.

Perhaps the best one to picture carrying on like that is John Stockton - TP to whomever can beat picturing that 🤣

[GreenlyGreeny]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

TP

How is Lebron so unaware.

He's got a bubble of enablers and yes men surrounding him.  That includes the league office.

Don’t forget about the members of the Communist Party in China who own the slave labor producing all the LeBron merchandise that generates profits for LeBron and his enablers. LeBron’s lovely little world of “social justice.”

[GreenlyGreeny]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

It’s interesting to me that Kobe — largely a ball-hogging chucker accused of rape — seems to be embraced more than Lebron.

As Lennon once put it, “everybody loves you when you’re six foot in the ground”? 🤷‍♂️

And it’s quite the coincidence that Kobe died the day after LeBron surpassed him on the all-time scoring list. Extremely low odds of that happening, but happen it did.

[GreenlyGreeny]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?  I think we get the point I was making.

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

First and foremost, LeBron’s Finals record of 4-6 will always keep him from being considered GOAT. You can’t lose 50% more Finals series than you won and be considered GOAT. And one of the four wins was in the bubble 🤪 LeBron lost just as many Finals series as MJ won. Yikes. Hard to see that being overlooked in 25+ years…you think people would be calling Tom Brady the GOAT if his Super Bowl record was 4-6 instead of 7-3? Especially if in that alternate universe some other QB from the late 20th century was 6-0 in the Super Bowl (maybe in that alternate universe, Marino played with a running game and a defense lol or Montana stayed injury-free and won two more rings without a defeat instead of Steve Young winning his ring)? No way.

Don’t worry: Unlike Kareem, LeBron will almost certainly not be the all-time scoring leader for nearly 40 years. Without real defense and medical advancements to come in the next 10-15 years, it’s almost certainly the case the next all-time scoring leader is already playing basketball somewhere—perhaps even in the NBA. Future HOFers who are only starting puberty today may turn pro at 18 and play until they’re 48-52, perhaps even longer. Before 2050, 50 will eventually be the new 40 in professional basketball. And after that dude breaks LeBron’s record, LeBron will eventually be best remembered in the history books as being the guy after the guy who followed MJ—the one who tragically died in a helicopter accident. Yes, in 75 years Kobe will be more famous among basketball fans than LeBron because of that tragedy. And MJ and Bill will still be as famous as Babe Ruth and Cy Young are today. Sorry, LeBron 🤷‍♂️

[GreenlyGreeny]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?  I think we get the point I was making.

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

I'm sure that's your hope.

Babe Ruth has been dead for nearly 75 years, hasn't played in over 85 years and you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a handful of people still alive who actually saw him play and is still generally regarded as the GOAT in his sport.   
'
So that theory might not necessarily come true.

This. Most everybody who follows baseball knows who Babe Ruth and Cy Young are. I bet less than half under age 40 know who Ty Cobb is, though. In 75 years as it relates to basketball, I strongly suspect MJ will still be the equivalent of Babe Ruth, Bill Russell the equivalent of Cy Young, and then LeBron and others will be in the Ty Cobb-like category. There’s really only epically legendary (remembered over 75 years after their death) placement for one or two players. MJ and Russell are those guys for the foreseeable future. LeBron is not going to touch them because of that 4-6 record in the Final, questionable physical abnormalities, etc.

[GreenlyGreeny]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?  I think we get the point I was making.

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

Perhaps, but six rings speak loudly, and Jordan would probably have seven or eight rings if he hadn't taken time away from the game.

Lebron has had the most prolific career in NBA history.  That doesn't make him the GOAT, it just means he's been good longer than anybody else.  And, it's an open question regarding how much of that longer peak has been aided by pharmaceuticals.

Does 11 rings not ring louder (Kareem has 6 rings also, more MVP's, more finals appearances, and better career stats - why is he disregarded as well)?  And people started calling Jordan the greatest ever after he retired in 1993.  Look at the statue outside the United Center.  The ring argument is the only one that can be made at this point because Lebron dwarfs Jordan in statistical achievement.  I don't think that ring argument will hold up as well once the people that grew up in the Jordan era age out of relevancy.  And 50 years from now, whoever is the next great best player in the world will hold more sway than that old guy Lebron their grandpa's talk about.  That is the way it always works.

Baseball is the oldest and that’s not how it works.

Hockey is not working that way. Gretzky has not played in almost a quarter century and nobody disputes his status as GOAT.

I suspect basketball is going to surprise you when you’re an old man. MJ and Russell are the 1-2 guys per century type. They’re to basketball what Gretzky and Gordie Howe are to hockey, or Babe Ruth and Cy Young to baseball. They will not fade. LeBron? Well, he’s just another Ty Cobb or Bobby Hull or Johnny Unitas (Johnny-Come-Lately 🤣)

[Kernewek]

“[Tonight’s] game was decided by the players. In Boston, the game was decided by the refs.”

He is such a ----.

Still climbing that hill huh.  Unbelievable.

I mean, couldn't the argument be made, that BY MAKING THE CALL the refs would be deciding the game, not the players?

He's a tool.  And people wonder why Jordan is so beloved for the most part while Lebron is a lightning rod. 

This is part of the reason.  Whiny crap like this.

Is Jordan beloved?  Every report I've ever read about him was about how much of a an a hole he was, how most of his teammates despised him, how he basically has no friends from his time in the sport, etc.  The media definitely has created a mystique and legend about Jordan more than any other player, but I don't think beloved is the right word to use with Jordan.  Magic is beloved, Jordan is not.

Yeah, he is.  I guarantee if you polled NBA fans, you'd find much more positive feedback on Jordan than Lebron.  Any off the court stuff has pretty much had a negligible impact on the perception of Jordan by the general public. 

The so called "heir apparents" Kobe & Lebron have been much more polarizing among the general public

I have no doubt fans have a more positive view of Jordan than Lebron, but that doesn't make Jordan beloved.  I just don't think it is the correct word.

Most popular?

Revered?  Adulated?  I think we get the point I was making.

I mean, its really just semantics.  Regardless, Jordan is held is higher regard than Lebron.   I'm not sure there is anything Lebron can do at this point to reverse that.

I'm guessing that in 25 or 30 years when all of the people that grew up on the altar of Jordan are no longer living, you are going to see a significant shift on the debate as to who is better.  It will be very hard to argue against the sport's all time leading scorer who also happened to retire in the top 4 of assists, top 10 of steals, top 25 (or so) in rebounds, and top 75 (or so) in blocks with all of the Finals appearances, similar MVP's, etc. I don't think it will be a debate at all.  People will just say Lebron is better and won't get push back.

This doesn't track for me - if we figure Be Like Mike came out in 1991, Space Jam came out in 1996, and Jordan's last ring came in 1998, you think all the kids born in the late 80's and early 90's who are dyed in the wool Jordan GOATers are going to die off in 20-30 years?

What's your explanation for a mass extinction event for people in their late 50's and early 60's?

It is more a media thing and those guys are in their 50's (or older now).  They may not be dead but they probably won't be journalists either.  You can look at the talking head shows right now, most of the Jordan is better talking heads are the older ones, while the younger ones are team Lebron (so to speak).  As the older talking heads retire and move on, I think you will see a pretty significant shift.  Just as you did in the 90's when the Wilt/Bill guys started to age out and the new press was all team Jordan (Kareem really got shafted as by the time his career was ending the Jordan hype was in full swing).

You may be right in terms of James becoming the new measuring stick for great players (and I don't really have a problem with that, he was the best player in the league for 15 years or so), but I think Jordan is too much of a cultural institution in ways that LeBron won't hit to see him put in the background as much as some other all timers.