Poll

Two part quesiton:  Do you think Trump has done anything wrong (pick one of first 3 choices)?  Part 2 is what do you think of this alleged informant (pick one of the last 2 choices)

Trump willfully removed White House documents, including some classified, and tried to conceal them from the Achieves and the FBI
34 (45.9%)
Trump was careless with White House documents but did not willfully do anything wrong
3 (4.1%)
Trump did not do anything wrong at all, he is being framed and the FBI probably planted documents
6 (8.1%)
This alleged informant who recognized that Trump was concealing confidential White House documents did the right thing to report it to the FBI and should be considered a courageous patriot
31 (41.9%)
The informant should have been loyal to Trump and should have protected Trump even if Trump was willfully and unlawfully withholding documents
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Donald Trump and White House Records  (Read 17954 times)

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Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2022, 12:40:26 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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If it turns out there's more to the situation then "he took some documents and left them in boxes in his house" then I don't think its going matter if he declassified them. I already don't think its going to matter, because "I declassified stuff then didn't tell anybody" is such a gigantic leap of nonsense, but even IF you bought that if it turns out he's been selling nuclear secrets to the suadi's, or letting them look through his stuff in exchange for hosting their golf league, then no serious person is gonna care about his half baked excuses.

Read something interesting as well today that the main thrust may have been just to get the documents back in secure locations, and that arrests or prosecution may be low on the list for the DOJ.

That seems likely, and somewhat unsurprising really, despite how little play it's getting.

Sure, anything's possible. But I will say this: In order to get a search warrant my understanding is you need to establish probable cause a crime is being committed. The warrant lists those potential violations. If you say "a crime is being committed" then you go in find exactly what you're looking for (assuming they did), but then decide... not to do anything about it, then boy that's a bad look for a law enforcement organization.

You'd basically be saying "yep, Trump is above the law."

But maybe in the end they just don't feel like they have a case, for whatever reason. But if so I hope its because they couldn't make a case, rather than they just decided not to.
It is very, very unlikely that Trump will be charged over this.  It would have to be a slam dunk case to go after a former president which I don't see based on what's know so far.  Trump can just claim he told his people to declassify the documents.  It's not on him to make sure they did so properly.  I'd bet they can find instances of it occurring under previous presidents.   
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Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2022, 12:46:25 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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If it turns out there's more to the situation then "he took some documents and left them in boxes in his house" then I don't think its going matter if he declassified them. I already don't think its going to matter, because "I declassified stuff then didn't tell anybody" is such a gigantic leap of nonsense, but even IF you bought that if it turns out he's been selling nuclear secrets to the suadi's, or letting them look through his stuff in exchange for hosting their golf league, then no serious person is gonna care about his half baked excuses.

Read something interesting as well today that the main thrust may have been just to get the documents back in secure locations, and that arrests or prosecution may be low on the list for the DOJ.

That seems likely, and somewhat unsurprising really, despite how little play it's getting.

Sure, anything's possible. But I will say this: In order to get a search warrant my understanding is you need to establish probable cause a crime is being committed. The warrant lists those potential violations. If you say "a crime is being committed" then you go in find exactly what you're looking for (assuming they did), but then decide... not to do anything about it, then boy that's a bad look for a law enforcement organization.

You'd basically be saying "yep, Trump is above the law."

But maybe in the end they just don't feel like they have a case, for whatever reason. But if so I hope its because they couldn't make a case, rather than they just decided not to.
It is very, very unlikely that Trump will be charged over this.  It would have to be a slam dunk case to go after a former president which I don't see based on what's know so far.  Trump can just claim he told his people to declassify the documents. It's not on him to make sure they did so properly.  I'd bet they can find instances of it occurring under previous presidents.   

I will remind people: Nobody is under any obligation to just believe the lie told by the guy who lies about almost literally everything. And secondly, yes it kind of IS on him.

But also, not all the crimes being investigated even hinge on whether the documents were classified or not. Obstructing an investigation for example is a crime whether the stuff the FBI was after was classified or not.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2022, 12:46:35 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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If it turns out there's more to the situation then "he took some documents and left them in boxes in his house" then I don't think its going matter if he declassified them. I already don't think its going to matter, because "I declassified stuff then didn't tell anybody" is such a gigantic leap of nonsense, but even IF you bought that if it turns out he's been selling nuclear secrets to the suadi's, or letting them look through his stuff in exchange for hosting their golf league, then no serious person is gonna care about his half baked excuses.

Read something interesting as well today that the main thrust may have been just to get the documents back in secure locations, and that arrests or prosecution may be low on the list for the DOJ.

That seems likely, and somewhat unsurprising really, despite how little play it's getting.

Sure, anything's possible. But I will say this: In order to get a search warrant my understanding is you need to establish probable cause a crime is being committed. The warrant lists those potential violations. If you say "a crime is being committed" then you go in find exactly what you're looking for (assuming they did), but then decide... not to do anything about it, then boy that's a bad look for a law enforcement organization.

You'd basically be saying "yep, Trump is above the law."

But maybe in the end they just don't feel like they have a case, for whatever reason. But if so I hope its because they couldn't make a case, rather than they just decided not to.
It is very, very unlikely that Trump will be charged over this.  It would have to be a slam dunk case to go after a former president which I don't see based on what's know so far.  Trump can just claim he told his people to declassify the documents.  It's not on him to make sure they did so properly.  I'd bet they can find instances of it occurring under previous presidents.   

I think you guys are missing the point on this. From the subpoena, it was clearly a raid to gather evidence for 3 charges. For 2 of the three charges it doesn't even matter if the documents were still classified or not. That argument really has no bearing on whether he is guilty or not for two of the potential charges.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #123 on: August 13, 2022, 12:48:22 PM »

Online nickagneta

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If it turns out there's more to the situation then "he took some documents and left them in boxes in his house" then I don't think its going matter if he declassified them. I already don't think its going to matter, because "I declassified stuff then didn't tell anybody" is such a gigantic leap of nonsense, but even IF you bought that if it turns out he's been selling nuclear secrets to the suadi's, or letting them look through his stuff in exchange for hosting their golf league, then no serious person is gonna care about his half baked excuses.

Read something interesting as well today that the main thrust may have been just to get the documents back in secure locations, and that arrests or prosecution may be low on the list for the DOJ.

That seems likely, and somewhat unsurprising really, despite how little play it's getting.

Sure, anything's possible. But I will say this: In order to get a search warrant my understanding is you need to establish probable cause a crime is being committed. The warrant lists those potential violations. If you say "a crime is being committed" then you go in find exactly what you're looking for (assuming they did), but then decide... not to do anything about it, then boy that's a bad look for a law enforcement organization.

You'd basically be saying "yep, Trump is above the law."

But maybe in the end they just don't feel like they have a case, for whatever reason. But if so I hope its because they couldn't make a case, rather than they just decided not to.
It is very, very unlikely that Trump will be charged over this.  It would have to be a slam dunk case to go after a former president which I don't see based on what's know so far.  Trump can just claim he told his people to declassify the documents.  It's not on him to make sure they did so properly.  I'd bet they can find instances of it occurring under previous presidents.   
Thing is, under the statutes cited, whether the documents were declassified or not might not make any difference.

Quote
But in any case, such a claim would not settle the matter. For one thing, two of the laws that a search warrant executed at Mar-a-Lago this week referred to — Sections 1519 and 2071 of Title 18 of the United States Code — make the taking or concealment of government records a crime regardless of whether they had anything to do with national security.

ADVERTISEMENT
For another, laws against taking or hoarding material with restricted national-security information, which generally carry heavier penalties than theft of ordinary documents, do not always line up with whether the files are technically classified.

That is because some criminal laws enacted by Congress to protect certain national-security information operate separately from the executive branch’s system of classifying documents — created by presidents using executive orders — as “confidential,” “secret” or “top secret.”

In particular, a third law the warrant references was Section 793, which carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison per offense. Better known as the Espionage Act, it was enacted by Congress during World War I, decades before President Harry S. Truman issued an executive order creating the modern classification system for the executive branch.

As a result, the Espionage Act makes no reference to whether a document has been deemed classified. Instead, it makes it a crime to retain, without authorization, documents related to the national defense that could be used to harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/politics/declassified-documents-trump.amp.html

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #124 on: August 13, 2022, 12:49:03 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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If it turns out there's more to the situation then "he took some documents and left them in boxes in his house" then I don't think its going matter if he declassified them. I already don't think its going to matter, because "I declassified stuff then didn't tell anybody" is such a gigantic leap of nonsense, but even IF you bought that if it turns out he's been selling nuclear secrets to the suadi's, or letting them look through his stuff in exchange for hosting their golf league, then no serious person is gonna care about his half baked excuses.

Read something interesting as well today that the main thrust may have been just to get the documents back in secure locations, and that arrests or prosecution may be low on the list for the DOJ.

That seems likely, and somewhat unsurprising really, despite how little play it's getting.

Sure, anything's possible. But I will say this: In order to get a search warrant my understanding is you need to establish probable cause a crime is being committed. The warrant lists those potential violations. If you say "a crime is being committed" then you go in find exactly what you're looking for (assuming they did), but then decide... not to do anything about it, then boy that's a bad look for a law enforcement organization.

You'd basically be saying "yep, Trump is above the law."

But maybe in the end they just don't feel like they have a case, for whatever reason. But if so I hope its because they couldn't make a case, rather than they just decided not to.
It is very, very unlikely that Trump will be charged over this.  It would have to be a slam dunk case to go after a former president which I don't see based on what's know so far.  Trump can just claim he told his people to declassify the documents.  It's not on him to make sure they did so properly.  I'd bet they can find instances of it occurring under previous presidents.   

I think you guys are missing the point on this. From the subpoena, it was clearly a raid to gather evidence for 3 charges. For 2 of the three charges it doesn't even matter if the documents were still classified or not. That argument really has no bearing on whether he is guilty or not for two of the potential charges.

There's an argument it doesn't matter for any of the charges. Even the espionage act doesn't specifically mention classified documents, only ones related to national security.

Its really just an example of how stupid this whole thing is. If your best defense is a defense that MIGHT NOT EVEN MATTER then you might be in trouble.

I gotta say it' always fascinating to watch how fox news works. Anytime there's some right wing scandal the first week is always a rapid cycling of dumb/wrong/nonsense excuses that they feel obliged to cycle through until they find the one that sticks the best.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 12:54:07 PM by keevsnick »

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2022, 03:31:19 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
“As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different,” the statement read.

It continued: “President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents, including classified documents, to the residence. He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.

This seems like an odd policy.  Wasn’t Mar-a-lago converted to a secure site, at least part of it?

A President can work from home without making everything declassified.

Meanwhile:

Quote
One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2022, 03:45:54 PM »

Online byennie

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Quote
“As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different,” the statement read.

It continued: “President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents, including classified documents, to the residence. He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.

This seems like an odd policy.  Wasn’t Mar-a-lago converted to a secure site, at least part of it?

A President can work from home without making everything declassified.

Meanwhile:

Quote
One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

Legalities aside, I'm just always stricken by how everything becomes a loophole to benefit Trump, and we're supposed to be ok with it.

What's that? I can't take state secrets home?
...
Well what if I just declassify everything, all the time, so that I can?

Nevermind whether any of it is in the best interest of anyone other than the man who prefers to hang out in Florida. Nevermind whether those documents SHOULD be declassified.

So exhausted by the Trump standard being: is he technically a convictable felon?

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2022, 03:46:42 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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Quote
“As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different,” the statement read.

It continued: “President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents, including classified documents, to the residence. He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.

This seems like an odd policy.  Wasn’t Mar-a-lago converted to a secure site, at least part of it?

A President can work from home without making everything declassified.

Meanwhile:

Quote
One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

That and the initial claim of planting evidence leads me to way more questions than answers about this, and that’s despite me being quite skeptical of this being a big deal initially.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2022, 04:00:52 PM »

Online byennie

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Quote
“As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different,” the statement read.

It continued: “President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents, including classified documents, to the residence. He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.

This seems like an odd policy.  Wasn’t Mar-a-lago converted to a secure site, at least part of it?

A President can work from home without making everything declassified.

Meanwhile:

Quote
One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

That and the initial claim of planting evidence leads me to way more questions than answers about this, and that’s despite me being quite skeptical of this being a big deal initially.

Yep. Trump's entire existence seems to be a legal loophole that usually works, because of his money, fame, followers, and lack of morals. Just invent whatever ludicrous excuse exists in the moment, and even better if it'll fan the flames of outrage.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2022, 04:31:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
“As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different,” the statement read.

It continued: “President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents, including classified documents, to the residence. He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.

This seems like an odd policy.  Wasn’t Mar-a-lago converted to a secure site, at least part of it?

A President can work from home without making everything declassified.

Meanwhile:

Quote
One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

That and the initial claim of planting evidence leads me to way more questions than answers about this, and that’s despite me being quite skeptical of this being a big deal initially.

Yep. Trump's entire existence seems to be a legal loophole that usually works, because of his money, fame, followers, and lack of morals. Just invent whatever ludicrous excuse exists in the moment, and even better if it'll fan the flames of outrage.

One of my exes is a NJ tax AAG, and she went up against Trump’s attorneys several times.  He was manipulative and frivolous even back then (2003 or so).


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #130 on: August 14, 2022, 02:13:44 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Former President Donald Trump attempted to convey a cryptic message to Attorney General Merrick Garland following the FBI raid of his Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida, a report says.

According to The New York Times, Trump wanted Garland to know that he had been speaking with people around the country and that they were enraged by the FBI search.

"The country is on fire. What can I do to reduce the heat?" was the message Trump wanted to be conveyed to Garland, a person familiar with the exchange told the paper.


Seems like a Rorschach test.  Is that a threat, a negotiation or a step toward healing?



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #131 on: August 14, 2022, 02:38:34 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Quote
Former President Donald Trump attempted to convey a cryptic message to Attorney General Merrick Garland following the FBI raid of his Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida, a report says.

According to The New York Times, Trump wanted Garland to know that he had been speaking with people around the country and that they were enraged by the FBI search.

"The country is on fire. What can I do to reduce the heat?" was the message Trump wanted to be conveyed to Garland, a person familiar with the exchange told the paper.


Seems like a Rorschach test.  Is that a threat, a negotiation or a step toward healing?
Negotiation and/or threat. Trump cares not about healing.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #132 on: August 14, 2022, 03:04:40 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Donald has nothing to really complain about …peanuts

Our government  just sent  87K new IRS agents up the public’s wazoo

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #133 on: August 14, 2022, 03:10:01 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Donald has nothing to really complain about …peanuts

Our government  just sent  87K new IRS agents up the public’s wazoo

We’ll see. We have a decent representation here on CS.  It will be interesting to see how many posters/lurkers are impacted by 87k new agents.  Also will be interesting to see if 87k new agents either find tax fraud and return that $$ to America or reduce tax fraud just by having publicly increased their numbers.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #134 on: August 14, 2022, 03:30:46 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Donald has nothing to really complain about …peanuts

Our government  just sent  87K new IRS agents up the public’s wazoo

It's not a problem. If your household makes less than 400K a year, then you have nothing to worry about. If your household makes more than 400K a year, then you should stop complaining and just pay your taxes.