Dejounte Murray rumors...

[Who]

They’re building around him. He’s a young all-star. They’re not giving him up for some picks.

Quite the contrary, according to most reports.  Apparently he doesn't fit in their rebuilding timeline.  They don't have much of anything else that justifies paying him a max in a few years.

He really does have the necessary skill set we need.  Right off the bat, he would compliment our system and the J's, and matches the age timeline for sustained success. 

I know its difficult to think of "breaking up the core", I struggle with that as well.  But for the right player, you'd have to really consider it.  Tbh, I would consider moving some combination of Smart, Nesmith, PP, Theis, Grant and picks for him. 

When it comes to Smart, we know what he is.  He plays tough D, has a knack for timely Tommy Points that matter in critical times, and is limited on offense and as a penetrator which, to me, severely hinders our offense allowing defenses to disrespect him and focus on the J's.  He's also nearly 3 years older than Dejounte.  While he is a team player, he does have a strong personality that can easily fall into "hero mode" at the worst times.  Also, how much longer will his body hold up playing the way that he does?

For SA, he would bring leadership and toughness to a young team that values defense.  He would be on a team friendly deal as well.  And from what I believe, Pop respects/appreciates what he brings to the table.

Well, I do see some rumors now that they’d accept a “Jrue Holiday-like package”. I have to say I’m surprised, and that I’m not sure I believe it. He’s a 25-year old all-star, a 2-way point guard with plus length. That’s really hard to get. Maybe they’ll be able to draft another player like that with one of the future firsts they could get, but that’s not likely, especially if they trade with a team that has realistic finals aspirations and a young core.

One other point: when the Pels trade Jrue he was on the other side of 30. The younger Murray has more value.

The above is true, but contracts matter too.  Holiday was making enough money that the Bucks knew they could extend him before free agency.  Murray has a bargain contract the next two years, but then he’s going to hit free agency.  The Spurs may be uncertain they can keep him, and the team trading for him has no assurances either.

If you know you’re getting Murray for 6-7 years, sure, those draft picks work.  If he bolts after two years, you’re going to regret that move.

Are you worried that if we got him we couldn't keep him? I really can't see how 24 year olds Tatum and Williams, and 25 year olds Brown and Murray wouldn't stay together. That is a monster core for almost a decade.

I was responding to someone wondering why San Antonio would be looking to trade Murray, and why the asking price would be comparable to Jrue.  The Spurs may have a good idea they can’t keep him, which is why they’re open to a trade now.  Further, other teams probably have a good idea if Murray has his sights set on a couple of destinations when he hits free agency, and may also want a discount as a result.

I don’t know if any of this is true, but the simple matter is that Murray has his most trade value this summer, and it will decline as he gets closer to free agency.

It looks to me like they are well aware that his inability to score efficiently or provide adequate spacing off the ball makes Dejounte Murray a difficult player to build around. That he isn't worth making a long term building block or franchise talent.

And that they don't believe he can fix his shot.

Because if you believe in he can fix his shot and even be a below average but near average shooter, why the heck would you move him? He is too bloody talented & young to trade unless you do not believe in his ability to improve that ugly shot.

League averages are .461/.354

Murray is at .462/.327

Again, Keldon Johnson, who is 22, is their second best offensive player by a mile. He would be open more here, to say the least.

He can improve his 3 point shot, but aren't you overselling his shooting issues a bit? He's pretty great at everything else, and we want a complementary star, not a primary option. We already have two elite scorers.

It could just be that they know he will keep them mediocre and that he might not stay long term. They need to find a #1 option, which is very hard when you win 35 games.

Trading him for picks will drop them very quickly into the bottom, where they have a chance to get a franchise player and they still have the extra picks. I'm sure they don't like where things are going down there.

Derrick White whose shooting has been criticized so much on here over the last few months was a better shooter for SAS than Dejounte Murray was for SAS.

Dejounte Murray played with DeMar DeRozan for the last few seasons. That gave Murray a big time scorer to play off of. It did not help Murray's scoring efficiency.

Earlier in his career, Murray had both DeRozan and Aldridge to play off of. His shooting efficiency was not better.

There is no evidence to suggest his scoring efficiency will improve dramatically when paired with better scorers because in the past when Murray has been paired with better scorers his efficiency was exactly the same.

Part of the reason SAS has to play so many small lineups that hamper their defense & rebounding is in order to put enough shooting around the floor to make up for the fact that their PG cannot shoot.

That is how DeRozan ended up at PF to begin with because of the problems SAS had in trying to allow them to co-exist and both be effective. They have continued those compromised lineups after DeRozan left in order to hide to how limiting Murray's lack of shooting is for the rest of the team.

His overall scoring efficiency is so bad because (1) he relies to heavily on midrange jump-shots (2) he struggles to make 3 point shots so he doesn't get a bump there (3) he hardly ever gets to the foul line so no easy points. For his career, his TS% is about 51% which is about 5 full percentage points below league average which is about as far below league average as a 61% TS% shooter is above average.

Even at his higher number of 53.3% this season after a hot finish to the season, he is still 3 full percentage points below average of 56.6% which is about as far below average as Steph Curry is above average at 60%.

He is not just poor in terms of scoring efficiency. He is very very bad. Russell Westbrook is probably the only high volume shot taker in the league who is worse at scoring efficiency than Dejounte Murray.

[nickagneta]

Is DeJonte Murray just Russell Westbrook lite?

[Who]

Is DeJonte Murray just Russell Westbrook lite?

He could be.

He doesn't have as much of an ego as Westbrook. He was a 15ppg 6-7apg guy when DeRozan was there. I do think Murray is more willing to take a back seat than Westbrook is which is a major issue for Westbrook these days. Plus Murray will give everything he has on defense and is an All-League level defender unlike Westbrook who mails it in on that end of the floor.

The thing with Westbrook though was that he was at or slightly above league average scoring efficiency when he was at his peak. Murray is still nowhere close to that.

[Who]

If Murray was at league average in scoring efficiency, his value would be similar to Jayson Tatum. 20ppg 9apg 8reb 2spg all-league defense. Murray would be a superstar.

If Murray was below league average but competitive, his value would be similar to Jaylen Brown.

Murray at his current way below league average, his value is on a par with a 30yo Jrue Holiday. And this is only because (1) he played on a lousy team and padded his stats by taking lots of shots and having the ball in his hands all the time (2) having his best year in scoring efficiency largely due to a hot shooting streak to end the season (last 20 or so games).

Take those two elements away and what would be Dejounte Murray be worth? A Derrick White trade package?

Then again, if Murray can maintain and further improve on last year's scoring efficiency and get it up to 54% or preferably 55%, he could be a steal for what SAS is demanding.

[Sophomore]

I won’t re-paste the long Murray thread above. It’s accurate but I think it paints the most negative picture possible.

His TS% last year was 53%. That’s below average. But he also averaged 9.2 assists a game against only 2.6 turnovers, which is elite, especially on a team without a lot of great offensive players to pass to. He’s high usage and when you factor in the shots he creates, he ends up with a very healthy 22 PER.  For comparison, Marcus is at 13.6.

Also, I think it’s reasonable to put more weight on last year than his first few years in the league. He’s 25, coming into his prime, and he’s much improved by the eye test. It’s reasonable to think he will keep getting better.

Last thing, which is probably influenced too much by the games I saw him play - he killed the Celtics. Down the stretch, in close games, he made winning plays again and again on both ends. Got pretty much wherever he wanted on the floor and ended one game by stripping Kemba and going the length of the court for a layup. He looked like a composed, winning player.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

His trajectory reminds me a bit of Brandon Knight, a player who succeeded at a high level when he could be the focal part of an offense, but struggled when he didn't have the ball every time down the court.

[Who]

I would feel better about Murray's 53.3% TS% if it was consistent over the course of last season. I would buy into development and encouragement.

But that he was at 51.3% for the first 47 games of the season in line with his career averages before finishing the season on a 21 game hot streak of 57.4% to get him to 53% ... makes me wonder whether that 53% is even dependable or will he just revert back to 51% again in the future.

[gouki88]

I would feel better about Murray's 53.3% TS% if it was consistent over the course of last season. I would buy into development and encouragement.

But that he was at 51.3% for the first 47 games of the season in line with his career averages before finishing the season on a 21 game hot streak of 57.4% to get him to 53% ... makes me wonder whether that 53% is even dependable or will he just revert back to 51% again in the future.

What about the flip?

[Dchuck]

At this point, objectively speaking, we can only view him statistically with the players and system he’s played in during his tenure in SA…ie playing with players like Rozan, Aldridge etc.

However, that view is in a vacuum, at a different stage in his career and development, completely different from our scheme and player capabilities. 

I still contend, his skill set would benefit the team at large, the J’s and his development as well. After all he is still only 25 yrs old.

Obviously, we dont know what the chemistry would be, but his talent, imo, is worth the risk of what could be.

[Who]

I would feel better about Murray's 53.3% TS% if it was consistent over the course of last season. I would buy into development and encouragement.

But that he was at 51.3% for the first 47 games of the season in line with his career averages before finishing the season on a 21 game hot streak of 57.4% to get him to 53% ... makes me wonder whether that 53% is even dependable or will he just revert back to 51% again in the future.

What about the flip?

Agreed. That is why I am not completely against it. Still only 25yo.

[gouki88]

I would feel better about Murray's 53.3% TS% if it was consistent over the course of last season. I would buy into development and encouragement.

But that he was at 51.3% for the first 47 games of the season in line with his career averages before finishing the season on a 21 game hot streak of 57.4% to get him to 53% ... makes me wonder whether that 53% is even dependable or will he just revert back to 51% again in the future.

What about the flip?

Agreed. That is why I am not completely against it. Still only 25yo.

Plus, a 3.54:1 assist:turnover ratio (or 9.2:2.6) is spectacular. He also generates nearly as many steals as turnovers.

[nickagneta]

I could see trading for Murray, but then people screaming about the 3 first rounders being an overpay when Dejounte has a first year where he shoots 43% from the field and 31% from three while playing great everywhere else. The anger in the game threads when White and Murray are in the backcourt together missing threes because they are both below average three point shooters would be off the charts.

[Csfan1984]

I could see trading for Murray, but then people screaming about the 3 first rounders being an overpay when Dejounte has a first year where he shoots 43% from the field and 31% from three while playing great everywhere else. The anger in the game threads when White and Murray are in the backcourt together missing threes because they are both below average three point shooters would be off the charts.

Probably same situation for Beal when he can't switch defend and is in a slump.

[slamtheking]

I could see trading for Murray, but then people screaming about the 3 first rounders being an overpay when Dejounte has a first year where he shoots 43% from the field and 31% from three while playing great everywhere else. The anger in the game threads when White and Murray are in the backcourt together missing threes because they are both below average three point shooters would be off the charts.

good to see you understand how things work here.

white was still an overpay.  would have gotten more production in the finals from JRich and Romeo. 

[nickagneta]

I could see trading for Murray, but then people screaming about the 3 first rounders being an overpay when Dejounte has a first year where he shoots 43% from the field and 31% from three while playing great everywhere else. The anger in the game threads when White and Murray are in the backcourt together missing threes because they are both below average three point shooters would be off the charts.

good to see you understand how things work here.

white was still an overpay.  would have gotten more production in the finals from JRich and Romeo.

Maybe you missed that my post was mocking and sarcastic, like your first line probably is, or maybe not. I understand where bad takes come from. I understand the ridiculousness of the game thread reactions. I don't agree with them.