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The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« on: March 08, 2022, 09:12:08 AM »

Online Roy H.

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... according to Hoopshype.

1.  Lebron James
2. Bill Russell
3.  Michael Jordan
4. Chris Paul
5. Kevin Garnett
6.  Larry Bird
7. Steph Curry
8. Robert Parish
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Paul Pierce ...
60. Isaiah Thomas

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-draft-the-best-players-ever-at-each-position/

Any disagreements?  It's cool that five of the top ten listed are retired by the Celtics.


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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2022, 09:22:26 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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interesting the same draft produced what they consider the best players at 9 and 10

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2022, 09:25:44 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2022, 09:29:59 AM »

Online Roy H.

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interesting the same draft produced what they consider the best players at 9 and 10

Yep.  That particular draft is one of the clearest in my memory.  I had no idea who Dirk was, but I really, really wanted Paul Pierce.  I was ecstatic when we drafted him.

It's funny that in a draft with multiple Hall of Famers (Dirk, Pierce, Vince) and some really solid players in the top-10 (Bibby, Raef, Jamison, Jason Williams) that the #1 pick was Kandi.  Clippers doing Clippers things.



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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2022, 09:33:28 AM »

Online Roy H.

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.


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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2022, 09:42:23 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.
agreed.  very much a recency-bias/Lebron-lovefest.   Saw Lebron at the top and immediately thought of Magic at once and shamefully didn't consider Kareem or Shaq. 

Looked up Wilt's draft spot noticing he was the most glaring omission but found he was a territorial pick.

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2022, 10:11:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Lebron and Jordan are pretty widely regarded as the top 2 players ever and since they weren't in the same draft slot, it is pretty easy to slot them into their actual draft position.  Russell is pretty easy at 2 as really only West and Durant could you even consider (and they aren't as good as Bill).  Pick 4 is the first time there is a question.  Hard to really differentiate between someone like Chris Paul and Bob Cousy since they played in vastly different eras.  And while I think many have put Paul ahead of Westbrook, it is Russ that has the MVP.  5 is also in question as you have KG and Barkley along with Wade and Pippen.  That is perhaps the most interesting debate that exists.  Bird and Curry are no brainers at 6 and 7.  And while Parish seems out of place on the list, his main competition are Sam Jones, Detlef Schrempf, and Jack Sikma so I can't say Parish didn't have the better career.  Dirk is the correct choice at 9, but Hondo, McGrady, and even Amar'e and Marion are all interesting choices and probably all better than Parish.  Similarly, Pierce is the easy choice at 10, though Paul George does still have some time to catch him. 

11 and 12 are no brainers with Reggie Miller and Dr. J, but 13 is interesting.  Hoopshype chose Kobe, but Karl Malone isn't exactly a slouch as he does have more MVP's, scored more points, etc.  Drexler at 14 and Giannis at 15 also are no brainers even with guys like Nash and Kawhi coming in at 15 along with Giannis.  Looking at the rest of the list there are quite a few no brainers, though some pretty interesting discussion points on some of the people with lesser careers.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2022, 10:13:10 AM »

Offline Moranis

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.
agreed.  very much a recency-bias/Lebron-lovefest.   Saw Lebron at the top and immediately thought of Magic at once and shamefully didn't consider Kareem or Shaq. 

Looked up Wilt's draft spot noticing he was the most glaring omission but found he was a territorial pick.
He was also the 3rd pick and pretty much everyone would put Jordan ahead of him.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 10:59:03 AM by Moranis »
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2022, 10:47:03 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
13 is interesting.  Hoopshype chose Kobe, but Karl Malone isn't exactly a slouch as he does have more MVP's, scored more points, etc

Malone vs. Kobe.  Kobe has the five titles.  That's the tipping point in determining greatness.

But man...  If I'm starting a team, I think I'm taking Mailman.  I think he has become one of the most underrated players of all-time.


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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 11:05:28 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.
agreed.  very much a recency-bias/Lebron-lovefest.   Saw Lebron at the top and immediately thought of Magic at once and shamefully didn't consider Kareem or Shaq. 

Looked up Wilt's draft spot noticing he was the most glaring omission but found he was a territorial pick.
He was also the 3rd pick and pretty much everyone would put Jordan ahead of him.
and pretty much everyone would be wrong then.  I'd take Wilt over Jordan and not think twice. 

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2022, 11:06:44 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Lebron and Jordan are pretty widely regarded as the top 2 players ever and since they weren't in the same draft slot, it is pretty easy to slot them into their actual draft position.  Russell is pretty easy at 2 as really only West and Durant could you even consider (and they aren't as good as Bill).  Pick 4 is the first time there is a question.  Hard to really differentiate between someone like Chris Paul and Bob Cousy since they played in vastly different eras.  And while I think many have put Paul ahead of Westbrook, it is Russ that has the MVP.  5 is also in question as you have KG and Barkley along with Wade and Pippen.  That is perhaps the most interesting debate that exists.  Bird and Curry are no brainers at 6 and 7.  And while Parish seems out of place on the list, his main competition are Sam Jones, Detlef Schrempf, and Jack Sikma so I can't say Parish didn't have the better career.  Dirk is the correct choice at 9, but Hondo, McGrady, and even Amar'e and Marion are all interesting choices and probably all better than Parish.  Similarly, Pierce is the easy choice at 10, though Paul George does still have some time to catch him. 

11 and 12 are no brainers with Reggie Miller and Dr. J, but 13 is interesting.  Hoopshype chose Kobe, but Karl Malone isn't exactly a slouch as he does have more MVP's, scored more points, etc.  Drexler at 14 and Giannis at 15 also are no brainers even with guys like Nash and Kawhi coming in at 15 along with Giannis.  Looking at the rest of the list there are quite a few no brainers, though some pretty interesting discussion points on some of the people with lesser careers.
shameful lack of regard for older players.  top 2 are Russell and Wilt.  period.  Greatest team player and winner in NBA history and the greatest individual talent in NBA history. 

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2022, 11:17:47 AM »

Online bdm860

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Would have be an interesting if they listed runner-ups for the 2nd rounders, while not every position has them, there's definitely some guys worthy of a shout out (Monta Ellis, Antonio Davis, Cliff Robinson, Carlos Boozer, etc.)

A lot of success at #15.  Giannis, Nash, Kawhi, Big Al.  Lol one of these is not like the others.

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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2022, 11:18:11 AM »

Offline CelticsWhat35

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interesting the same draft produced what they consider the best players at 9 and 10

Yep.  That particular draft is one of the clearest in my memory.  I had no idea who Dirk was, but I really, really wanted Paul Pierce.  I was ecstatic when we drafted him.

It's funny that in a draft with multiple Hall of Famers (Dirk, Pierce, Vince) and some really solid players in the top-10 (Bibby, Raef, Jamison, Jason Williams) that the #1 pick was Kandi.  Clippers doing Clippers things.

Same here.  I was actually hoping Vince would fall to us and never even thought about Pierce as a viable option, since most mocks I saw at the time had him in the top #5, even as high as #2

Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2022, 11:44:27 AM »

Online bdm860

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.
agreed.  very much a recency-bias/Lebron-lovefest.   Saw Lebron at the top and immediately thought of Magic at once and shamefully didn't consider Kareem or Shaq. 

Looked up Wilt's draft spot noticing he was the most glaring omission but found he was a territorial pick.
He was also the 3rd pick and pretty much everyone would put Jordan ahead of him.
and pretty much everyone would be wrong then.  I'd take Wilt over Jordan and not think twice.


While Wilt put up the most amazing numbers ever, he definitely has some negatives going against him.  Here's somethings mentioned in Bill Simmon's Book of Basketball (and reading it all reminds me a lot of Russell Westbrook - amazing stats, obsession with getting his stats, played with great teammates, but lack of team success).

Quote
Also, if you’re scoring at home: Russell played with four members of the NBA’s Top 50 at 50 (Havlicek, Cousy, Sharman and Sam Jones); Wilt played with six members (Baylor, West, Greer, Cunningham, Arizin and Thurmond). And Russell’s teammates from 1957 to 1969 were selected to twenty-six All-Star games, while Wilt’s teammates from 1960 to 1973 were selected to twenty-four. Let’s never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain. Thank you.

Quote
Wilt was continually obsessed with a bizarre streak—for whatever reason, he wanted to make it through his entire basketball career without fouling out, so he’d stop challenging shots with four or five fouls even if he was hurting his team in the process. I’m not making this up. (Seriously, I’m not making this up.) (Wait, you don’t believe me? Here’s what John Havlicek wrote in Hondo: “Wilt’s greatest idiosyncrasy was not fouling out. He had never fouled out of a high school, college or professional game and that was the one record he was determined to protect. When he got that fourth foul, his game would change. I don’t know how many potential victories he may have cheated his team out of by not really playing after he got into foul trouble.”)

Quote
Suddenly Wilt was passing up easy shots to set up teammates, checking the scorer’s table multiple times per game, complaining if he felt like he hadn’t been credited for a specific assist, lambasting teammates for blowing his passes and taking an inordinate amount of delight in leading the league in ’68 (a record he bragged about more than any other).

Quote
When things finally fell apart on the ’65 Warriors, legendary L.A. Times columnist Jim Murray wrote, “[Wilt] can do one thing well—score. He turns his own team into a congress of butlers whose principal function is to get him the ball under a basket. Their skills atrophy, their desires wane. Crack players like Willie Naulls get on the Warriors and they start dropping notes out of the window or in bottles which they cast adrift. They contain one word: ‘help.’

Quote
When San Fran shopped him in ’65, the Lakers were intrigued enough that owner Bob Short asked his players to vote on whether or not he should purchase Chamberlain’s contract. The results of the vote? Nine to two … against. Nine to two against!

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Re: The Top Players At Every Draft Position...
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2022, 12:32:59 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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#8 is dubious, definitely not a great spot to find yourself historically.

Maybe some of the more seasoned members of the forum would know better but I might consider Tom Chambers or Detlef Schrempf ahead of Robert Parish.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

Definitely not Detlef.  Parish vs. Chambers could be debated, I guess, but Parish was a 9x All-Star with four championships and is a Top-75 player.

I think the most debatable spot is probably #1.  So many greats were taken there.  Kareem, Magic, Shaq, etc., etc.
agreed.  very much a recency-bias/Lebron-lovefest.   Saw Lebron at the top and immediately thought of Magic at once and shamefully didn't consider Kareem or Shaq. 

Looked up Wilt's draft spot noticing he was the most glaring omission but found he was a territorial pick.
He was also the 3rd pick and pretty much everyone would put Jordan ahead of him.
and pretty much everyone would be wrong then.  I'd take Wilt over Jordan and not think twice.


While Wilt put up the most amazing numbers ever, he definitely has some negatives going against him.  Here's somethings mentioned in Bill Simmon's Book of Basketball (and reading it all reminds me a lot of Russell Westbrook - amazing stats, obsession with getting his stats, played with great teammates, but lack of team success).

Quote
Also, if you’re scoring at home: Russell played with four members of the NBA’s Top 50 at 50 (Havlicek, Cousy, Sharman and Sam Jones); Wilt played with six members (Baylor, West, Greer, Cunningham, Arizin and Thurmond). And Russell’s teammates from 1957 to 1969 were selected to twenty-six All-Star games, while Wilt’s teammates from 1960 to 1973 were selected to twenty-four. Let’s never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain. Thank you.

Quote
Wilt was continually obsessed with a bizarre streak—for whatever reason, he wanted to make it through his entire basketball career without fouling out, so he’d stop challenging shots with four or five fouls even if he was hurting his team in the process. I’m not making this up. (Seriously, I’m not making this up.) (Wait, you don’t believe me? Here’s what John Havlicek wrote in Hondo: “Wilt’s greatest idiosyncrasy was not fouling out. He had never fouled out of a high school, college or professional game and that was the one record he was determined to protect. When he got that fourth foul, his game would change. I don’t know how many potential victories he may have cheated his team out of by not really playing after he got into foul trouble.”)

Quote
Suddenly Wilt was passing up easy shots to set up teammates, checking the scorer’s table multiple times per game, complaining if he felt like he hadn’t been credited for a specific assist, lambasting teammates for blowing his passes and taking an inordinate amount of delight in leading the league in ’68 (a record he bragged about more than any other).

Quote
When things finally fell apart on the ’65 Warriors, legendary L.A. Times columnist Jim Murray wrote, “[Wilt] can do one thing well—score. He turns his own team into a congress of butlers whose principal function is to get him the ball under a basket. Their skills atrophy, their desires wane. Crack players like Willie Naulls get on the Warriors and they start dropping notes out of the window or in bottles which they cast adrift. They contain one word: ‘help.’

Quote
When San Fran shopped him in ’65, the Lakers were intrigued enough that owner Bob Short asked his players to vote on whether or not he should purchase Chamberlain’s contract. The results of the vote? Nine to two … against. Nine to two against!
no doubt he had some negatives.  doesn't negate the point that he's the most talented individual player to have played.

Anyone I've personally had a discussion with concerning who's the best basketball player (or top 5, best team, etc..), almost all of them have put Jordan as #1 and a handful have put Lebron as #2. 
Their reasoning was what I consider to be faulty. 
-Some claimed Jordan's 6 titles make him the greatest while remaining ignorant of Russell's 11 in 13 years while having to win them with Wilt in the league.  Jordan didn't win titles until Bird and Magic were well past their primes.  When pointing that out to them, most admitted begrudgingly I had a point.  A couple refused to acknowledge basketball existed pre-1984 when Jordan was drafted.
-Those claiming Lebron as #2 proclaim his all-around skill as unseen in the NBA.  I point out Wilt was a better scorer and rebounder.  was an excellent passer and defender - nothing that would take a backseat to Lebron.  Then piling on the ability of Bird to outscore Lebron, outpass Lebron, out rebound Lebron --generally being the smartest guy on the court always a step ahead of the competition.  Bird won 3 titles while having to compete against a beast of a team in Philly in the East as well as having to compete against a stacked Lakers team through the decade.  That's not including Magic's all-around incredible game and ability to elevate the games of his teammates as well as his ability to step up and be 'the man' in crunch time.  5 titles for Magic.
-Those proclaiming Jordan and Lebron as the greatest athletes to have played, I offer Russell's world class athleticism in track and field.  Don't recall Jordan or Lebron hitting that level of athleticism outside of basketball but Russell did.  They very well may have been good enough to do it but we'll never know while Bill did manage to include that with his basketball endeavors.
-Those proclaiming Jordan and Lebron are the greatest scorers couldn't really defend that against Wilt's accomplishments.  Closest thing to a rebuttal was that there were no great centers to defend Wilt but that's pretty weak considering he still has to make the shots and a high percentage of them to get those scoring figures.
-Those proclaiming Jordan and Lebron are the greatest 2-way players fail to recognize the league protection afforded them that became prominent in Jordan's title years.  Jordan and Lebron have not had to worry about fouling out of games.  They've gotten away with so many fouls that would be called on anyone else.  The story of Wilt shying away from fouling out lends credence to the idea that Wilt was not a recipient of heavily biased star calls that the latter two have enjoyed.  Any disbelievers only need to see the number of streaks Lebron has had of games where he wasn't called for any fouls.  Anyone watching those games knows Lebron has gotten away with hacks, hits to the body, etc... that no other player would get away with.   Subject Jordan and Lebron to the same rules as everyone else and their defensive reputations would take a hit.  Same goes for their offense, particularly Lebron.  Travels, pushes, offensive fouls called as defensive fouls, etc...   Again, if they were officiated the same as other players, their stats would take a hit.

I stand behind my opinion that Russell and Wilt are the 2 top players in league history.  Any measuring stick used to justify Jordan or Lebron at the top doesn't hold up when also applied to Russell and Wilt.