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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Phantom255x on July 16, 2017, 12:43:58 PM

Title: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Phantom255x on July 16, 2017, 12:43:58 PM
And this is coming from someone WHO LOVED BRADLEY, and when it came for trade rumors and what not, I was always hoping we could somehow keep AB while trading Crowder among others (and I love Crowder and his contract too). It's definitely sad to see Bradley leave especially considering he was the last link to the Big 3 Team from 2008-2012.

But while it definitely hurts to lose Bradley after all this time, especially for just Marcus Morris.... it seems like a lot of people forgot that we added Gordon Hayward.

Avery Bradley is an elite defender in the league, and one of the better two-way players in the game (don't let his absence in the All-NBA Defense Teams affect your stance on that, because that was BS). A guy who could score 16-18 PPG and play elite defense is someone who is a great player, and frankly a tad bit underrated in an era and league where it seems like scoring and average PPG is an "indicator" of how well you play.

But Gordon Hayward is a legit all-star, who has played many years in a tough Western Conference, and while his defense may not be Bradley-level, it is still above average (actually, still VERY GOOD and a bit underrated). Hayward also has the size to match up well against other forwards on defense, AND offense (hello Lebron! Time to actually try on defense more.)

IN THE MOST RECENT POSTSEASON, Gordon Hayward averaged 26 PPG/7 RPG/4 RPG. I know it's really 24/6/3, BUT don't forget, Hayward left one game really early due to food poisoning (after just 9 minutes) and so he only scored 3 points that game. Take that "food poison game" out and it's really 26/7/4. Also, Hayward played A LOT of the 4 in the postseason and his defense reportedly took a huge step forward during the playoffs. But of course, against the Warriors... you need like 4-5 all stars to have a chance against them lol. Still, Hayward also had a huge Game 7 against LAC on the road (scoring and defense) and carried them to the win in the 4th as well, allowing them to advance.

All those Crowder, Bradley bricks (even on open looks) are shots Hayward is capable of making in his sleep (easy). Hayward is someone who can legitimately take over games, something you can't say of Bradley. While Hayward becomes the #2 guy on THIS Celtics team, he's someone you'd much rather have than Bradley in games where Isaiah struggles, and you need someone else to step up and score late in games.

Again, I'll miss Bradley a ton, and I didn't mean to trash on AB with this thread, but I'm just saying, YES, we did get a lot better with the addition of Hayward, and my guess is, we keep IT+Smart as a result, and still have the trade assets to pull off a trade for another star in the future (or hope any or all of Brown/Tatum/Zizic/2018 BKN Pick become all-stars as well).
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: smokeablount on July 16, 2017, 01:07:16 PM
Huge upgrade. Having a big time #2 scorer is huge and Hayward is a playmaker for teammates and can rebound, putting up decent numbers with Gobert & Favors on the floor. Also, Smart/Brown as a pair are capable fill-ins.

Hayward may not add more than 3-5 regular season wins, but in the playoffs he adds so much value.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Vermont Green on July 16, 2017, 01:13:15 PM
No doubt that I know Bradley's game way better than I know Hayward's game but I give it a moderate upgrade.  For sure it will be important to have the added offense, especially with uncertainty with Thomas due to his injury but Bradley did more of the little things (defense, rebounding) than I think most give him credit for.

One factor in favor of Hayward that I don't think gets enough attention is durability.  Hayward has a better record of staying available to play.  Bradley gets hurt a lot.

I see Hayward as about the same as Clay Thompson.  Definitely an important piece and one the defense will have to adjust to (which will open up some other things) but I don't not see him as a "take the game over" type of player.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: td450 on July 16, 2017, 01:13:50 PM
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: 2short on July 16, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
Offensively Hayward is huge.  Better scorer, passer.  He's a good defender.
Bradley is a great defender, good shooter, great guy  :'(

It's an upgrade.  I think rozier will step into Bradley's role nicely.  Avery's size and lack of really good ball handling was problem.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: JBcat on July 16, 2017, 01:23:15 PM
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.

This is true regarding Bradley's defense on PGs, but I look at the playoffs and Wall and Irving still went off.  So I do question how much his loss of D on PGs will hurt us.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on July 16, 2017, 01:25:53 PM
Your mistake is thinking it's AB vs. Hayward. No one thinks that's a comparison (if they do why are you listening? That's crazy). We could have kept him to play with Hayward so Hayward had nothing to do with AB. The team wanted to get bigger and moving AB made us bigger and we don't have to worry about paying him. Moving AB killed multiple birds with one stone. We got bigger, open playing time for JB/Tatum at the 2, don't have to pay a lot or lose AB and hopefully size next to him hides IT4 more. They had to choose IT4 over AB because their pairing needed more size and you're not paying both the money they deserve,  one had to go. You have to choose IT4 over AB, no matter how much I hate that AB had to go because IT4 can't defend a chair, it was easily the right decision.


Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: smokeablount on July 16, 2017, 01:26:01 PM
No doubt that I know Bradley's game way better than I know Hayward's game but I give it a moderate upgrade.  For sure it will be important to have the added offense, especially with uncertainty with Thomas due to his injury but Bradley did more of the little things (defense, rebounding) than I think most give him credit for.

One factor in favor of Hayward that I don't think gets enough attention is durability.  Hayward has a better record of staying available to play.  Bradley gets hurt a lot.

I see Hayward as about the same as Clay Thompson.  Definitely an important piece and one the defense will have to adjust to (which will open up some other things) but I don't not see him as a "take the game over" type of player.

Yeah I forgot to mention durability, where Hayward excels, because the difference between Hayward on this years team vs the team last year without AB is huge.

I also do think if Smart slims down some, he can replace AB more effectively than we could replicate what Hayward offers offensively. I also think Hayward does some little things better, like he's a better rebounder, passer, lengthier defender of wings, etc.   
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: slamtheking on July 16, 2017, 01:27:42 PM
moderate upgrade IMHO.   would have been a huge upgrade if we moved Crowder instead of AB. 
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: SHAQATTACK on July 16, 2017, 01:30:22 PM
Hayward will bring better IQ every play , passing , ball handling ,  steady scoring and he can actually STAY on the freak n court for 10 games and no get some bad injury and miss 3-6 weeks in rehab every season.

Bradley defense of many top guards will,be missed . 

For me the overall balance is tipped pretty heavy in favor of Haywards game.   


You think Utah would trade Hayward for Bradley staright up ......not likely ....one is clearly the superior overall player and IQ
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: td450 on July 16, 2017, 01:39:21 PM
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.

This is true regarding Bradley's defense on PGs, but I look at the playoffs and Wall and Irving still went off.  So I do question how much his loss of D on PGs will hurt us.
Wall had a rough series against us. Check out his numbers. He just took a lot of shots.

Irving did go off. His strategy against Bradley was to force a switch, and LeBron and Love did a great job of setting the picks and burning our defense whenever we overcommitted to Irving. I think the only way to do better with that is for us to have quicker, more aggressive bigs.

I'd still rather have Bradley on Irving than anyone else in the league.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: jpotter33 on July 16, 2017, 01:40:51 PM
AB's defense was actually pretty subpar (for him) for most of last year, along with Crowder's D. He stepped it up defensively in the playoffs and actually had several phenomenal defensive games guarding Butler, but on the whole I think AB's D was at times overrated around the league. I have no doubt that he's the best on-ball defender in the league, but that's only part of defense. He was actually pretty mediocre in help/off-ball D many times.

Other areas where he really hurt us include his severe lack of BBIQ and his lack of ball handling and passing abilities. Those are two huge upgrades that we needed badly in the starting unit. And his subpar size also was a check against him.

If we start Brown at the 2 with Hayward at the 3, overall we're much bigger with much better BBIQ, ball handling, passing, playmaking, scoring, and overall balance than we were last year.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 16, 2017, 01:54:45 PM
I agree folks are overrating Bradley sometimes in terms of raw defensive ability. However, his particular value lied in the fact that you can line him up next to Thomas and have him guard either guard. Can't do that with Hayward.

I also think that they are clearly overrating Hayward right now, though. Time will tell.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: jpotter33 on July 16, 2017, 01:57:14 PM
I agree folks are overrating Bradley sometimes.

However, I also think that they are clearly overrating Hayward right now.


Time will tell.

Lol this is the epitome of "Kozean" philosophy - pessimism and cynicism to the end!  :P
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: IDreamCeltics on July 16, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....

Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 16, 2017, 02:08:28 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan.
Yes, it's entirely plausible that Hayward might end up being more like the 2013-2015 version of himself for the remainder of his career. That's possible low value for a max contract, but still a marked improvement over Jae Crowder.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: A Future of Stevens on July 16, 2017, 02:13:32 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....

So you think that a 27 year old who averaged 22 pts on very good splits "peaked?" Even considering he didn't fit well in the system he was in? Our system fits his strengths much better, but yea, I guess he peaked already
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: JBcat on July 16, 2017, 02:31:31 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan.
Yes, it's entirely plausible that Hayward might end up being more like the 2013-2015 version of himself for the remainder of his career. That's possible low value for a max contract, but still a marked improvement over Jae Crowder.

It is a little bit of a worry, but even so if you look at talent in verses talent out via trades and FA this offseason Hayward, Morris, Baynes, Theis should be an improvement over Bradley, Johnson, KO, Zeller, and JJ. 

Then you factor in Bradley's flight risk next year, or possibly overpaying him and Kelly for that matter what we did locking in Hayward for up to 4 years and locking in Morris on a cheap contract for 2 years is a no brainer.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Ilikesports17 on July 16, 2017, 02:34:46 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....

So you think that a 27 year old who averaged 22 pts on very good splits "peaked?" Even considering he didn't fit well in the system he was in? Our system fits his strengths much better, but yea, I guess he peaked already
Are we gonna act like it's unusual to peak at 27?

That's like the most common age to peak lol
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: PAOBoston on July 16, 2017, 02:41:35 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....
Crowder is a top 10 SF?? You can't be serious. He's a good 3 and D guy. No more.

Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: RJ87 on July 16, 2017, 02:58:47 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....
Crowder is a top 10 SF?? You can't be serious. He's a good 3 and D guy. No more.

Welcome to CelticsBlog where Jae Crowder is a top 10 SF but Gordon Hayward has already peaked.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: jambr380 on July 16, 2017, 03:10:37 PM
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....
Crowder is a top 10 SF?? You can't be serious. He's a good 3 and D guy. No more.

Welcome to CelticsBlog where Jae Crowder is a top 10 SF but Gordon Hayward has already peaked.

TP - this topic is derailing quickly.

I said 'huge upgrade', but may have just been caught up in the moment. It is probably somewhere in between moderate and huge. We basically were able to replace [the strengths of] two players (AB and KO) with one all-star player in Hayward.

I expect the difference to be similar to Horford taking over for Sullinger. Hayward should have better stats than Horford, but having a SG/SF out there that can do it all is going to be a revelation to all of us. As good as AB was, it was pretty disappointing have a starting guard on the roster who couldn't effectively pass or dribble.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: green_bballers13 on July 16, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
Gordo is the 6th best SF, with a bunch of the heavy hitters (Lebron, Kawhi, Durant) ahead of him.

At a weaker position (SG), Bradley probably is around the 9th best player. Here are guys I'd rather have:

Harden, Thompson, Butler, Derozan, McCollum, Middleton, Booker, and Beal.

Smart has some of Bradley's defensive abilities, with a more imposing body. I think Smart's lack of offense to date might keep him here on a discount.

I liked Bradley, but I'm ok with him leaving if it means we got Hayward. 
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: GreenWarrior on July 16, 2017, 03:20:51 PM
I think Celtics fans are blinded by this teams success and simply can't see the forest through the trees.

this team got as far as they could with Bradley. in the end how did his great defense look? I seem to recall he got smoked. so maybe this supposed downgrade defensively isn't quite as bad as people want to make it out to be.

maybe Bradley's defense suffered in the ECF because he raised the level of his offense it wore him out. now we have a guy that is just plain better offensively and even if he's average defensively in general it likely won't be any worse than Bradley's in the ECF.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on July 16, 2017, 03:24:41 PM
Love AB...but he's a injury waiting to happen every season...Shoulder/Achilles/Hip/etc.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: nickagneta on July 16, 2017, 03:25:55 PM
I'm going to say huge upgrade because trading Bradley did two things:

1.  Open up space to sign Hayward
2.  Bring in Marcus Morris.

So this whole thing of comparing Bradley to Hayward should be more like, who would you rather have Bradley or Hayward and Morris. To me its clear I would rather have Hayward, who is a better player than AV, and Morris who is a pretty good player in his own right and on a sweet cost controlled contact.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Big333223 on July 16, 2017, 03:29:46 PM
I love Avery Bradley but I feel very confident he's peaked. He's just never going to be the kind of player that you can throw the ball to and say "Go get us a bucket." He's not that kind of talent. He has gotten to where he's gotten to through incredible hard work but I think this is his ceiling.
 
Hayward is no superstar but he is an all star. He was the #1 option on a 51 win team. I can't imagine Bradley ever being the #1 option on a playoff team. Having a second guy on a team who can create his own shot and create for others but who can also spot up and mvoe away from the ball the way Bradley did, is going to be huge.

And I'm not even worried about the defense because I think Hayward makes the C's more versatile on that end. Plus, I think his presence gives IT a little more energy on the defensive end to be a nuisance where he can be.

So, yeah, huge upgrade.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on July 16, 2017, 03:32:40 PM
The only reason that Bradley got traded, was because of his expiring contract...If he still had 2-3 years on it, no way Danny trades him.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: BaronV on July 16, 2017, 03:34:24 PM
I'm going to say huge upgrade because trading Bradley did two things:

1.  Open up space to sign Hayward
2.  Bring in Marcus Morris.

So this whole thing of comparing Bradley to Hayward should be more like, who would you rather have Bradley of Hayward and Morris. To me its clear I would rather have Hayward, who is a better player than AV, and Morris who is a pretty good player in his own right and on a sweet cost controlled contact.

Not to mention, Boston gets multiple years of those guys.  AB was on the last year of his contract, and was due for a big payday.  So they essentially traded one year of AB for 2 years of Morris, and 4 years of Hayward. 
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Dino Pitino on July 16, 2017, 03:58:51 PM
Hayward is, if anything, underrated because he is in the same tier as George and Butler per 100 possessions. Bradley might be getting underrated, too, but per 100 he is still a tier below those three, plus the 20 or so more missed games.

http://bkref.com/tiny/DnYiF
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Eja117 on July 16, 2017, 04:06:21 PM
Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Ilikesports17 on July 16, 2017, 04:18:00 PM
Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.
55+ wins and a 7 game ECF would be a very very big improvement in my eyes.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Surferdad on July 16, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
If Celtics push Cavs to Game 7, there's no reason to think they won't win.  Cavs have not done much so far this off-season, and LeBron is year older.  He has needed more rest in recent seasons.  This could be a case where the C's depth wins out in the end.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: max215 on July 16, 2017, 04:36:35 PM
Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.
55+ wins and a 7 game ECF would be a very very big improvement in my eyes.

Same, which is what I think will happen and why I voted "huge upgrade." And to the original topic, it is most certainly true that Bradley is being overrated and Hayward underrated. Bradley is overrated, because the eye test largely belies his actual impact; year in and year out, impact statistics just don't think much of Bradley. At some point, you have to put some stock into that. As for Hayward, people on here just haven't seen that much of him. He's likely a top-15 player and was as good, if not better than Paul George last season.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Rosco917 on July 16, 2017, 04:52:29 PM
They don't play the same position. Bradley was a real SG, he could defend the position, and score pretty well. Bradleys main fault, besides being injured too often, and not being a very good passer, is he really wasn't a go to scorer, he just couldn't consistently find his shot. He needs to be setup to excel.

Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: CelticsElite on July 16, 2017, 05:16:00 PM
Its huge. Ring chasers should be calling soon to take the minimum to come here.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Dino Pitino on July 16, 2017, 05:17:31 PM

Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.

I wonder if maybe Hayward isn't our leading scorer next season, averaging something like 26-28, compared to something like 24-25 from Isaiah but with 10-ish assists, etc.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Boris Badenov on July 16, 2017, 05:47:44 PM

Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.

I wonder if maybe Hayward isn't our leading scorer next season, averaging something like 26-28, compared to something like 24-25 from Isaiah but with 10-ish assists, etc.

I expect him at 20-22 and IT at 22-24.

Hayward is probably at his peak, but his game should age about as well as Pierce's so I think he's got 4-5 years of All Star play left.

I think Hayward is a massive upgrade over Bradley offensively. He's far more versatile than AB.

Beyond that GH should make everyone around him more efficient offensively. He's a threat from everywhere on the floor. This will take a ton of pressure off IT and create better looks for him, Horford, and all the rest.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: mobilija on July 16, 2017, 06:45:11 PM
Replace Bradley with Hayward on last years Jazz team. How much better or worse are they?
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: mr. dee on July 16, 2017, 07:24:21 PM
People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: crimson_stallion on July 16, 2017, 07:45:05 PM
I don't see the upgrade others are claiming. 

If it was just a case of losing Bradley and adding Hayward then sure, that would be a pretty significant upgrade.  Still not a HUGE upgrade, but a very significant one. 

But I don't believe you can look at our team this year vs last year as simply a case of Hayward vs Bradley.  There have been a lot of changes which I think are going to hurt the team a LOT - possibly enough to offset any gain Hayward gives us over Bradley.

Firstly, this team's horrendous rebounding has given us major issues for some 2 years running now, and after the moves this offseason we have just gotten a LOT worse in that area.  We have lost Bradley, Olynyk , Jerebko, Amir and Zeller.  That's 5 of our top 6 rebounders gone.  In return we've picked up Zizic (who may or may not be even capable of producing), Morris (who can't rebound to save his life), Hayward (a woefully mediocre rebounder for his size), Baynes (who probably wont get more than 20 MPG), and Theiss who looks to me like he will be utterly useless and probably won't contribute at all.

Secondly, chemistry is almost certainly count to suffer.  We lost Bradley, the longest tenured guy on this roster.  We've also lost Olynyk and Jerebko - nice solid backup guys who knew there role, played their role well, and never tried to do too much.  We've instead added Hayward (who I think will fit in fine offensively) but we've also added Baynes (who has zero offensive ability and terrible hands), Morris (who wouldn't know what team offense is if it slapped him in the face) and a handful of guys who have never played an NBA game thus far an will take time to adjust. I am seriously concerned about how long it will take for our chemistry to start to gel, and I'm not sure if we will ever have the same offensive capability with this unit as we had earlier.  Even Amir, for all his limitations, was an extremely efficient finisher around the basket, an intelligent passer, and a strong offensive rebounder who could also step out and hit the occasional three.   He didn't do much, but he helped on the offensive end more than people may realize while he was on the court.

As for the Bradley/Hayward chance...Bradley was the perfect guy for the SG spot given he had the quickness and length to defend both guard spots, had the defensive toughness to cover for Isaiah's limitations, and had the consistent outside shooting to help create space for Isaiah.  We've lost him now and I assume Hayward will replace him in the lineup at SG.  That's fine on the offensive end, but I shudder to think of how bad Hayward is going to be defensively with Horford (instead of Gobert) there to back him up in the middle, and with Isaiah Thomas (instead of George Hill) alongside him at the PG spot.  Hill can take care of his own man defensively, so before Hayward only had to worry about his own man.  He didn't even have to worry about that much because when his man got by him, he had Gobert covering his back.  this year he will need to cover his man AND help on IT's man - and there will be no 7'1" shotblocker in the middle to cover up for his mistakes.  So based on sheer "sum of parts" Hayward is definitely a better individual talent.  But Bradley's overall contributions as a three way player (offense, defense, rebounding) might eclipse Hayward's contributions as what is pretty much a one dimensional play who isn't very good at anything other than scoring.

Based on the significant drop off that I'm expect on both offense (due to chemistry) and defense (due to both chemistry and sheer defensive talent) I'm going to go out on a limp and say it's entirely possible that Boston, as a team, may well regress this year.

But I do believe that 2 years from now (once our young guys have some experience and start breaking out) we could become very, very good.

To me this year's moves were a very clear case of sacrificing one year in order to make us stronger in the future.  I don't love that idea because I feel like we are legit one or two pieces away from competing with Golden State, and I would have liked to strike now while the opportunity is there...

But I get the move.  Horford and IT don't have that much prime left in them, so if we went all in right now I'd say we probably only have window or 2-3 years.  I can see why Danny would prefer to sacrifice some success in those 2 years for a good decade of success.   

But at the same time I feel disappointed because it feels like we are wasting Horford and IT's best years on the hope that Brown and Tatum will become future superstars and help carry this team, and I feel that's a bit risk. 
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: incoherent on July 16, 2017, 08:06:52 PM
Avery missed 28 games last season.  The Celtics won those games at a 70% rate going 19-8.

Yes, people are overrating Avery.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: bopna on July 16, 2017, 08:08:53 PM
Hayward is getting better every yr and that is something to take into consideration..he will be a perennial all star in the mediocre East. AB has already reached his max potential in his last yr with us and KO is just still going to be as inconsistent as he always was.
Have we improved by leaps and bounds absolutely...IT himself will be more effective this yr IMO with the arrival of GH. Not to mention that Brown is eager to improve and Tatum will also contribute right off the bat. Rozier has improved each yr and so has Smart.

To be honest we cannot judge these Cs anymore when we were mangled by the Cavs. The improvement across the board will now make Lebron pee in his shorts. Lets remember he is 33 now and GH is just about to enter his prime and so does IT...

We can take the Cavs now in a seven game series...now would we win well maybe maybe not but atleast we aint gonna be blown off.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: crimson_stallion on July 16, 2017, 08:08:56 PM
People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time. 
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: PAOBoston on July 16, 2017, 08:15:03 PM
Analytics troglodyte here.

Is there a site I can utilize to see the Cs defensive efficiency with/without Bradley on the court and, in particular, the efficiency when both Bradley/IT are on the floor together as opposed to say someone else and IT?
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Surferdad on July 16, 2017, 09:16:59 PM
With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
Already discussed here on CB:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=92573.0
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: mr. dee on July 16, 2017, 09:32:20 PM
People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time.

Draws charges, set screens, pass, rebounds and makes clutch plays on both ends. I don't know how is that a one-dimensional player. Can't shoot =/= offensive liability. Smart is the more versatile defender than Bradley, better ball-handler and passer.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: SHAQATTACK on July 16, 2017, 09:41:37 PM
He'll be sitting on the bench hurt within 20 games at Detroit .

does not matter what your capable of ,  your not helping the team sitting on the bench healing up 1/3 of the season.

I don't think AB can keep up the torrid defense he is inown for much longer, he has too many injuries and age is becomming a factor.   

His shooting can improve , but defense intensity falls with age , and thats been his real calling card.


Smart is much more valuable on a team of stars .  He phsical presence and willingness to do the dirty work , and come up with big plays is what this team will need.

Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: max215 on July 16, 2017, 09:53:26 PM
Analytics troglodyte here.

Is there a site I can utilize to see the Cs defensive efficiency with/without Bradley on the court and, in particular, the efficiency when both Bradley/IT are on the floor together as opposed to say someone else and IT?

http://on.nba.com/2pprr7D

You can play around with all the settings to isolate different groupings.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: crimson_stallion on July 16, 2017, 10:16:08 PM
People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time.

Draws charges, set screens, pass, rebounds and makes clutch plays on both ends. I don't know how is that a one-dimensional player. Can't shoot =/= offensive liability. Smart is the more versatile defender than Bradley, better ball-handler and passer.

Correction...

* Seemingly leads the league in fines as a result of stupid flops
* Frequently picks up stupid and unnecessary offensive fouls, leading to turnovers
* Rebound well for a guard, but not as well as Bradley did last year
* Loses as many games with bad clutch plays (turnovers/fouls/bad shots) as he wins with good clutch plays
* Equal to Bradley at best as a ball handler (if you think he's a better ball handler you are dreaming)
* Can't finish at the basket and can't shoot, so opposing defense can ignore his presence on offense 90% of the time

He is a better passer then Bradley, I'll give you that.

As for defensive versatility, you must have forgotten the dominant defensive job Bradley did on Jimmy Butler in the playoffs this year, along with the similarly impressive defensive jobs he'd done on guys like Steph Curry and Dwyane Wade in the past.  That's a 6'8"/ 230 lbs SF, a 6'5" / 220 lbs SG and a 6'3" / 190 lbs PG - all dominant superstars - who have all been shut down on multiple occasions by Bradley.  I'd say that is a pretty impressive show of offensive versatility, wouldn't you?

Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: celtics2030 on July 17, 2017, 01:32:22 AM
Smart is a big defensive playmaker

He is versatile and can get into peoples skin


But he still gets roasted on defense. He cant keep up all game with quick talented players. Not too many can.

Bradley is a better defender than Smart is. I don't know where people think otherwise. Probably because Bradley is also an offensive player while Smart is ****e in that category.

With that said. On this team, Smart will be maximized. He wont get as many minutes though.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Greyman on July 17, 2017, 02:17:39 AM
Undoubtedly Hayward is the better overall player and the question I have to ask is, how much better does he make the team? You can't lose a player like AB and not suffer on defence. I think Hayward adds more than what we lose in AB in most respects, though I still have a nagging concern over how the group will work together. AB was a team player and he brought a style of defence the team will miss. If its three steps forward and two steps back you are still moving forward.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: gouki88 on July 17, 2017, 02:24:37 AM
Undoubtedly Hayward is the better overall player and the question I have to ask is, how much better does he make the team? You can't lose a player like AB and not suffer on defence. I think Hayward adds more than what we lose in AB in most respects, though I still have a nagging concern over how the group will work together. AB was a team player and he brought a style of defence the team will miss. If its three steps forward and two steps back you are still moving forward.
I'm not sure how true this will be. AB's defence in '16-'17 was a step back from what we've come to expect, likely due to his increased offensive output. He only really came back to what we are used to in the post season.

I think it's more 3 steps forward and 1 step back  ;D
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: mctyson on July 17, 2017, 03:47:20 AM
The two players are the same age, the same level of experience, and basically achieved the same amount of success in the league.  Their shooting percentages are almost identical.  Hayward is taller, scores more and gets to the line more, which is really the big difference between them.

So I don't think anyone is overrating Bradley (he is a very good player) or underrrating Hayward.  They aren't that different right now.  What we can't rate yet for Hayward is his ceiling on this team, which we know for AB.  We are relying on the difference between them increasing over time.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: LilRip on July 17, 2017, 04:59:10 AM
Huge upgrade. Hayward is a legit all star and is now the best player on this team, IMO. IT will probably score more but Hayward is going to be huge for us this year. Mind you, I like AB and defense is my favorite thing to watch in this game. But yeah, the difference in impact between the two players is huge.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Granath on July 17, 2017, 07:41:48 AM
The two players are the same age, the same level of experience, and basically achieved the same amount of success in the league.  Their shooting percentages are almost identical.  Hayward is taller, scores more and gets to the line more, which is really the big difference between them.

So I don't think anyone is overrating Bradley (he is a very good player) or underrrating Hayward.  They aren't that different right now.  What we can't rate yet for Hayward is his ceiling on this team, which we know for AB.  We are relying on the difference between them increasing over time.

Er, no.

They haven't had the "same amount of success". One is a 22 point scorer who is an All Star and the other is 16 and is not.

Literally every part of Avery's offensive game is bettered by Hayward. It's not just FT shooting and usage. When you say that it makes me question whether you've ever watched a game. Avery - and I think everyone knows I love the guy - is a complimentary piece who cannot create his own shot. He's a spot up sniper who thrives on being fed open looks from long range and he's good at putting those away. Hayward is a shot creator who consistently thrives on creating for him and others. So for them to have the same shooting percentages shows that Hayward is a far more disruptive offensive force given their vastly different roles on offense. He's also a much better creator for other players as witnessed by his superior assist numbers and has been shown over the years to be a superior rebounder. There's not one area on offense that Hayward doesn't significantly improve upon and they are exceptionally different offensive players.

Defensively, Bradley has the edge. He's a lockdown defender who can drive the opposition nuts. We're going to miss that from time to time unless Smart takes that role. But Hayward offers better positional flexibility, length and is quite good on that end of the court as well. As a result, even though Bradley is the better defender, the overall team defense may not suffer much (if at all) with Hayward on the court.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Phantom255x on July 17, 2017, 10:35:08 AM
Lol wow, I make the post, come back, and "Huge Upgrade" is winning by a ton.  :P

Didn't expect that margin of vote difference between 1st and 2nd.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 10:43:48 AM
With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: tankcity! on July 17, 2017, 10:54:35 AM
With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.

Or start Smart....I think this team is way better defensively. Bradley was not good at defense last year. I mean the stats bare it out. My eyes tell me the same thing. I just remember him getting burned by Bradley Beal and John Wall. Bradley WAS  a great defender, but he didn't demonstrate it this year.

Also Irving was effective. Butler was effective until Rondo got hurt. By the way, we did double and collapse on Butler in the playoffs. Talk about overrating a player, sheesh.

It's like people forget we weren't good on D last year. IT was a part of the problem, and will continue to be a part of the problem.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 11:27:46 AM
With the way so many players on the roster can play multiple positions, Celtics have an opportunity now switch everything on defense.  This is the way the league is going.  "Positionless" basketball is not so much about offense, it's defense.  Bradley didn't fit into that.
But Thomas did? And does? If you want to keep Thomas you need to have a 2.guard that can defend both PGs and SGs. That pretty much means that we'll either start Brown and bench Crowder, or suffer defensively.

Or start Smart....I think this team is way better defensively. Bradley was not good at defense last year. I mean the stats bare it out. My eyes tell me the same thing. I just remember him getting burned by Bradley Beal and John Wall. Bradley WAS  a great defender, but he didn't demonstrate it this year.

Also Irving was effective. Butler was effective until Rondo got hurt. By the way, we did double and collapse on Butler in the playoffs. Talk about overrating a player, sheesh.

It's like people forget we weren't good on D last year. IT was a part of the problem, and will continue to be a part of the problem.
Whether Bradley was a great defender last year was immaterial. The main issue here is you could put him on the likes of Irving and Wall, and not expect him to get his pants pulled down. Sure, maybe he wasn't the second coming of Gary Payton -- but he was a better option than Thomas, and we will need to see how our starting SG this year will fare to render judgement.

As it is, it seems that we have 3 options: (1) start Hayward at SG and have suboptimal defense, (2) play Crowder at PF and have VERY suboptimal rebounding, and (3) start Brown/Smart and put Crowder on the bench. Regardless of whether you find Bradley over- or underrated, neither of these scenarios is a clear upgrade.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: RockinRyA on July 17, 2017, 11:33:10 AM
Smart is a big defensive playmaker

He is versatile and can get into peoples skin


But he still gets roasted on defense. He cant keep up all game with quick talented players. Not too many can.

Bradley is a better defender than Smart is. I don't know where people think otherwise. Probably because Bradley is also an offensive player while Smart is ****e in that category.

With that said. On this team, Smart will be maximized. He wont get as many minutes though.

If you get past your Smart hatred you will see that Bradley gets roasted on defense as well. Take for example against Washington, it was clear that Beal was feasting on Bradley and when Smart got on him had a hard time scoring. In the same way that Smart had a rougher time with Wall than Bradley.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 12:04:13 PM
I think if we have a starting unit of:

IT
Brown
Hayward
Morris
Horford

And then bring in off the bench, in order, Smart, Baynes, Crowder, Tatum, Rozier and make the substitution pattern such that either IT or Gordon or both are on the court at all times. We will be a slightly better defensive team than last year and much better offensive team.

Unfortunately, unless Horford, Morris, Hayward and Brown can all average above 6 rebounds a game while getting 5 a game from Baynes, we are once again going to get killed on the boards.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on July 17, 2017, 12:27:04 PM
I think if we have a starting unit of:

IT
Brown
Hayward
Morris
Horford

And then bring in off the bench, in order, Smart, Baynes, Crowder, Tatum, Rozier and make the substitution pattern such that either IT or Gordon or both are on the court at all times, we will be a slightly better defensive team than last year and much better offensive team.

Unfortunately, unless Horford, Morris, Hayward and Brown can all average above 6 rebounds a game while getting y a game from Baynes, we are once agaun going to get killed on the boards.

I doubt Crowder will come off the bench but that's the lineup I would try (early enough to change if needed).
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: tstorey_97 on July 17, 2017, 12:38:35 PM
I think if we have a starting unit of:

IT
Brown
Hayward
Morris
Horford

And then bring in off the bench, in order, Smart, Baynes, Crowder, Tatum, Rozier and make the substitution pattern such that either IT or Gordon or both are on the court at all times, we will be a slightly better defensive team than last year and much better offensive team.

Unfortunately, unless Horford, Morris, Hayward and Brown can all average above 6 rebounds a game while getting y a game from Baynes, we are once agaun going to get killed on the boards.

I doubt Crowder will come off the bench but that's the lineup I would try (early enough to change if needed).

Good with this, but, my guess is Stevens starts Baynes a la Johnson last year. In the above this puts Morris off the bench somewhere.

And yes, Crowder and his agent need him to start and this maybe our "drama" for this season. worse problems than having to decide which hard working team player needs the start on a given night.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: DooVoo on July 17, 2017, 02:48:38 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. There is no more traditional 1-5 anymore. Get use to it.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 02:53:08 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. There is no more traditional 1-5 anymore. Get use to it.
Why, because Brad S said so? Did someone send the memo to the other 29 teams so that they would kindly not field SGs and PFs against us this season?

P.S. Also, you're missing a category. It's supposedly Ballhandlers-Swings-Wings-Bigs.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: saltlover on July 17, 2017, 02:57:48 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. There is no more traditional 1-5 anymore. Get use to it.
Why, because Brad S said so? Did someone send the memo to the other 29 teams so that they would kindly not field SGs and PFs against us this season?

They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 03:08:54 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: saltlover on July 17, 2017, 03:14:36 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 03:17:50 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Ok, we'll put Horford on Thompson, and Morris will have to stay with Love... somehow this rearrangement doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: saltlover on July 17, 2017, 03:23:47 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Ok, we'll put Horford on Thompson, and Morris will have to stay with Love... somehow this rearrangement doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

I'm actually very interested to see Morris on Love, for one.  But more importantly, your positional hangup completely misses the goal of having three guys on the court at the same time who can defend LeBron, which will somewhat limit the Cavs go-to LeBron PnR plays, and keep his defenders a bit fresher.

You don't beat the Cavs in the playoffs by stopping Love or Thompson.  You beat them by stopping LeBron.  And that's what the revolving door of 6'6" to 6'9" defenders gives you a chance to do.  If Love beats you, you tip your cap.  The game plan should always be make someone other than LeBron beat you.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: chilidawg on July 17, 2017, 03:23:51 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Ok, we'll put Horford on Thompson, and Morris will have to stay with Love... somehow this rearrangement doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Get's me all warm and tingly.  It's a big improvement over having Amir out there.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 04:03:05 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Ok, we'll put Horford on Thompson, and Morris will have to stay with Love... somehow this rearrangement doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

I'm actually very interested to see Morris on Love, for one.  But more importantly, your positional hangup completely misses the goal of having three guys on the court at the same time who can defend LeBron, which will somewhat limit the Cavs go-to LeBron PnR plays, and keep his defenders a bit fresher.

You don't beat the Cavs in the playoffs by stopping Love or Thompson.  You beat them by stopping LeBron.  And that's what the revolving door of 6'6" to 6'9" defenders gives you a chance to do.  If Love beats you, you tip your cap.  The game plan should always be make someone other than LeBron beat you.
So why not just field 5 guys that can guard LeBron on switches? Where does it stop?
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: saltlover on July 17, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
They're welcome to send all the 6'4" SGs and stiff 6'10" PFs they like, and we'll see who wins.
Yes, I can't wait to watch Hayward trying to stay with Bradley Beal and Morris banging it out with Tristan Thompson. It will be grand.  8)

Tristan Thompson was very much a center last year, and given that the Cavs haven't changed much of their roster, should be again this year.

And I can't wait to see Bradley Beal hang with Gordon Hayward, also.
Ok, we'll put Horford on Thompson, and Morris will have to stay with Love... somehow this rearrangement doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

I'm actually very interested to see Morris on Love, for one.  But more importantly, your positional hangup completely misses the goal of having three guys on the court at the same time who can defend LeBron, which will somewhat limit the Cavs go-to LeBron PnR plays, and keep his defenders a bit fresher.

You don't beat the Cavs in the playoffs by stopping Love or Thompson.  You beat them by stopping LeBron.  And that's what the revolving door of 6'6" to 6'9" defenders gives you a chance to do.  If Love beats you, you tip your cap.  The game plan should always be make someone other than LeBron beat you.
So why not just field 5 guys that can guard LeBron on switches? Where does it stop?

I would not be surprised to see that lineup at least for small bits.  Smart-Brown-Hayward-Crowder-Morris is a perfectly reasonable lineup, especially considering the Cavs run LeBron as a de facto center sometimes.

So it probably stops at 6 guys who can guard LeBron, since that's against the rules.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 17, 2017, 04:20:42 PM
I would not be surprised to see that lineup at least for small bits.  Smart-Brown-Hayward-Crowder-Morris is a perfectly reasonable lineup, especially considering the Cavs run LeBron as a de facto center sometimes.

So it probably stops at 6 guys who can guard LeBron, since that's against the rules.
Meh, when did that stop anyone?
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: JHTruth on July 17, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
AB's defense was actually pretty subpar (for him) for most of last year, along with Crowder's D. He stepped it up defensively in the playoffs and actually had several phenomenal defensive games guarding Butler, but on the whole I think AB's D was at times overrated around the league. I have no doubt that he's the best on-ball defender in the league, but that's only part of defense. He was actually pretty mediocre in help/off-ball D many times.

Other areas where he really hurt us include his severe lack of BBIQ and his lack of ball handling and passing abilities. Those are two huge upgrades that we needed badly in the starting unit. And his subpar size also was a check against him.

If we start Brown at the 2 with Hayward at the 3, overall we're much bigger with much better BBIQ, ball handling, passing, playmaking, scoring, and overall balance than we were last year.

AB actually had a negative DBPM last year during the season. I'm not an advanced stat fanatic or anything but shouldn't that number have been better for such a supposedly elite level defender? I'm not hating on AB, just suggesting maybe the reality of AB doesn't match the perception of AB among Celtics fans and that's why the front office was comfortable letting him walk?
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Ed Hollison on July 18, 2017, 10:17:38 AM
I loved Bradley when he was here, but I also believe he is overrated, including defensively.

Alex Kungu on Celticsblog covered this in depth a few months ago:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2017/6/1/15714662/boston-celtics-2017-season-roster-review-did-avery-bradley-play-his-last-game-in-green
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 18, 2017, 10:30:41 AM
AB's defense was actually pretty subpar (for him) for most of last year, along with Crowder's D. He stepped it up defensively in the playoffs and actually had several phenomenal defensive games guarding Butler, but on the whole I think AB's D was at times overrated around the league. I have no doubt that he's the best on-ball defender in the league, but that's only part of defense. He was actually pretty mediocre in help/off-ball D many times.

Other areas where he really hurt us include his severe lack of BBIQ and his lack of ball handling and passing abilities. Those are two huge upgrades that we needed badly in the starting unit. And his subpar size also was a check against him.

If we start Brown at the 2 with Hayward at the 3, overall we're much bigger with much better BBIQ, ball handling, passing, playmaking, scoring, and overall balance than we were last year.

AB actually had a negative DBPM last year during the season. I'm not an advanced stat fanatic or anything but shouldn't that number have been better for such a supposedly elite level defender? I'm not hating on AB, just suggesting maybe the reality of AB doesn't match the perception of AB among Celtics fans and that's why the front office was comfortable letting him walk?
Given that "Box Score Plus Minus" actually loves, well, anything that goes in the box score -- no, it's not surprising at all. Shutdown perimeter defenders do not typically produce a discernible box score effects, and if you pop open the career DBPM leaders, you'll see it exclusively dominated by players that fill up the DRPG and BLK categories.

I think a defensive stat that doesn't place Gary Payton in the top 250 and ranks Rasho Nesterovic ahead of Bruce Bowen is rather worthless.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_career.html
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Phantom255x on July 18, 2017, 01:57:09 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

I mentioned this in the original post, but Hayward played A LOT of the 4 during the postseason and it worked very well for him and the Jazz (he averaged 24/6/4 in playoffs).

Obviously that changes here, and he may play a little bit of the 2, mostly 3.

But I think we'll see short spurts of Crowder/Hayward/Horford playing the 4 as well when Morris goes to the bench (or Morris shifts to the 3).

Idk man.. there's a lot of versatility and potential rotations. I'll leave CBS to decide on all that lol.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: The One on July 18, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
I went with HUGE.

Shot maker - shot creator - facilitator - ball handler...these are the things "Commissioner Gordon" can do very well.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: kozlodoev on July 18, 2017, 02:20:42 PM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

I mentioned this in the original post, but Hayward played A LOT of the 4 during the postseason and it worked very well for him and the Jazz (he averaged 24/6/4 in playoffs).

Obviously that changes here, and he may play a little bit of the 2, mostly 3.

But I think we'll see short spurts of Crowder/Hayward/Horford playing the 4 as well when Morris goes to the bench (or Morris shifts to the 3).

Idk man.. there's a lot of versatility and potential rotations. I'll leave CBS to decide on all that lol.
You can see "short spurts" of almost anything, especially in the playoffs. I mean, we had short spurts of Gerald Green playing the 4, but noone will confuse Green for a PF.

What we're talking about here is a sustainable solution for the 82-game grind of the regular season.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: The One on August 04, 2017, 08:55:51 AM
I really like Hayward's pace and rhythm.

Not rushed but he's quick.

No wasted movement but he's fluid.
Title: Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
Post by: Eddie20 on August 04, 2017, 11:29:01 AM
There is no way Crowder should start at the 4.  Now if Hayward is the 2, then Crowder starting at the 3 makes fine sense.

Stevens will obviously try out lineups, but I think he originally goes with Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Morris, and Horford.  I wouldn't be surprised at any number of lineups in which Brown, Crowder, and Baynes are all in various lineup iterations as a starter though.

I mentioned this in the original post, but Hayward played A LOT of the 4 during the postseason and it worked very well for him and the Jazz (he averaged 24/6/4 in playoffs).

Obviously that changes here, and he may play a little bit of the 2, mostly 3.

But I think we'll see short spurts of Crowder/Hayward/Horford playing the 4 as well when Morris goes to the bench (or Morris shifts to the 3).

Idk man.. there's a lot of versatility and potential rotations. I'll leave CBS to decide on all that lol.
You can see "short spurts" of almost anything, especially in the playoffs. I mean, we had short spurts of Gerald Green playing the 4, but noone will confuse Green for a PF.

What we're talking about here is a sustainable solution for the 82-game grind of the regular season.

At least you no longer seem worried about him missing so many games.