Did we underrate Al Horford

[Moranis]

If Kukoc is a HOFer, so is Al for what he’s done for basketball in the Caribbean.

Al has a better NBA case, but a much lesser foreign case.  Al isn't making the HOF without something incredibly unforeseen happening over the latter part of his career.

[gouki88]

If Kukoc is a HOFer, so is Al for what he’s done for basketball in the Caribbean.

His impact on Caribbean basketball is not as impressive as his record within the USA in college and the pros

[Somebody]

Horford should've never had to prove that he's the starting centre on this Celtics team, so...

[Roy H.]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.

Reports say that Dallas saw Brown as a negative.  They wanted to do a pure salary dump, but Brad insisted that Dallas take back Brown’s contract.

[Moranis]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.

Reports say that Dallas saw Brown as a negative.  They wanted to do a pure salary dump, but Brad insisted that Dallas take back Brown’s contract.

There were also reports that they loved Brown and specifically asked for him to be included, which is why he wasn't included in the first iteration of the trade but was in the final version. That makes way more sense especially in light of the fact that Brown made the roster over other players.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.

Reports say that Dallas saw Brown as a negative.  They wanted to do a pure salary dump, but Brad insisted that Dallas take back Brown’s contract.

I am not sure it really matters why Dallas did this but I don't buy the premise that Dallas was forced to take Brown.  If he was a negative, they could have cut him.  His contract was only partially guaranteed ($500,000).  Instead, they kept him, played him in every preseason game, and he is on the opening day roster.

But regardless of why Dallas did the trade the bottom line does not change.  The "Horford-Walker" trade resulted in the following:

Boston got:
Horford
Richardson
Future 2nd (2023)

Boston gave:
Walker
Pick #16
Future 2nd (2025)

We then extended Richardson for one additional year at $12.2M, essentially spending the one year of savings we got on the swap of the big contracts (if it was a dump for Dallas, Boston certainly saw it differently).   It is very simple dot connecting.  We got Horford for Kemba and we got Richardson for the first round pick.  Dallas got a young, big, athletic prospect who made the team, for Richardson.

That is why I say it is fair to debate Horford vs. Walker.  I like the trade because I think we needed a big way more than we needed a shoot first, oft-injured PG but we still have to see what we are going to get out of Al.  The pick got us Josh Richardson though.  That is plain and simple, no matter what Dallas' reasons may have been.  We have to see what Richardson can do but I believe he is going to be a useful pick up.

[Roy H.]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.

Reports say that Dallas saw Brown as a negative.  They wanted to do a pure salary dump, but Brad insisted that Dallas take back Brown’s contract.

I am not sure it really matters why Dallas did this but I don't buy the premise that Dallas was forced to take Brown.  If he was a negative, they could have cut him.  His contract was only partially guaranteed ($500,000).  Instead, they kept him, played him in every preseason game, and he is on the opening day roster.

But regardless of why Dallas did the trade the bottom line does not change.  The "Horford-Walker" trade resulted in the following:

Boston got:
Horford
Richardson
Future 2nd (2023)

Boston gave:
Walker
Pick #16
Future 2nd (2025)

We then extended Richardson for one additional year at $12.2M, essentially spending the one year of savings we got on the swap of the big contracts (if it was a dump for Dallas, Boston certainly saw it differently).   It is very simple dot connecting.  We got Horford for Kemba and we got Richardson for the first round pick.  Dallas got a young, big, athletic prospect who made the team, for Richardson.

That is why I say it is fair to debate Horford vs. Walker.  I like the trade because I think we needed a big way more than we needed a shoot first, oft-injured PG but we still have to see what we are going to get out of Al.  The pick got us Josh Richardson though.  That is plain and simple, no matter what Dallas' reasons may have been.  We have to see what Richardson can do but I believe he is going to be a useful pick up.

That’s not really how it worked.  We traded for Richardson with the Hayward trade exception, which was the primary asset in that deal.  But, if your view was that the team gave up the #16 pick for Josh Richardson, then we got royally screwed.

[jambr380]

Yeah, we basically either gave up Sengun or the two 1sts OKC got in return. Kemba was also bought out for ~$50M, so if we keep Al for one year, we only save like $8.5M, and if we keep Al for two years, we actually pay more than Kemba's buy-out. Yes, we get a year or two of service from Al, but this wasn't as much as a slam dunk as people are making it out to be.

Kemba is a legit 3rd scorer/star type when relatively healthy. I hate that we need to root against him just so we can feel like we didn't get ripped off. Kemba is such a great person.

You are leaving out that we got Moses Brown who we then traded for Josh Richardson.  So if you want to do proper accounting, we got Al Horford and Josh Richardson for Kemba and the 1st (that became two firsts for OKC).  Plus there was some second round pick swaps that will probably end up favoring Boston, but it is second round picks so no big deal.

When we had Moses Brown, I was excited about that.  People seemed to treat him as a worthless throw in and only focused on the pick we gave up.  That worthless throw in then became Josh Richardson and people still seem to discount that.  Moses Brown was value and Josh Richardson is value.  That is what we got for the first round pick.

You can debate Kemba vs. Horford, that is fair, but we did not give up a first just to dump Kemba.  That debate would be the first vs. Josh Richardson.  I am pretty happy with getting Josh Richardson for the 16th Pick.

Reports say that Dallas saw Brown as a negative.  They wanted to do a pure salary dump, but Brad insisted that Dallas take back Brown’s contract.

I am not sure it really matters why Dallas did this but I don't buy the premise that Dallas was forced to take Brown.  If he was a negative, they could have cut him.  His contract was only partially guaranteed ($500,000).  Instead, they kept him, played him in every preseason game, and he is on the opening day roster.

But regardless of why Dallas did the trade the bottom line does not change.  The "Horford-Walker" trade resulted in the following:

Boston got:
Horford
Richardson
Future 2nd (2023)

Boston gave:
Walker
Pick #16
Future 2nd (2025)

We then extended Richardson for one additional year at $12.2M, essentially spending the one year of savings we got on the swap of the big contracts (if it was a dump for Dallas, Boston certainly saw it differently).   It is very simple dot connecting.  We got Horford for Kemba and we got Richardson for the first round pick.  Dallas got a young, big, athletic prospect who made the team, for Richardson.

That is why I say it is fair to debate Horford vs. Walker.  I like the trade because I think we needed a big way more than we needed a shoot first, oft-injured PG but we still have to see what we are going to get out of Al.  The pick got us Josh Richardson though.  That is plain and simple, no matter what Dallas' reasons may have been.  We have to see what Richardson can do but I believe he is going to be a useful pick up.

That’s not really how it worked.  We traded for Richardson with the Hayward trade exception, which was the primary asset in that deal.  But, if your view was that the team gave up the #16 pick for Josh Richardson, then we got royally screwed.

Yeah, it’s fine that people want to combine the trades in order to justify it being a better deal, but the fact remains that we probably did DAL a favor taking JRich off their hands for free. If there had to be some compensation, Edwards would have been fine.

It remains to be seen how JRich will fit in with the Cs, but from what I’ve seen, people would seemingly rather not have him on the team. And extending him a year was questionable at best. He’s not really a player that should be making more than the MLE.

[Vermont Green]

That’s not really how it worked.  We traded for Richardson with the Hayward trade exception, which was the primary asset in that deal.  But, if your view was that the team gave up the #16 pick for Josh Richardson, then we got royally screwed.

Yeah, it’s fine that people want to combine the trades in order to justify it being a better deal, but the fact remains that we probably did DAL a favor taking JRich off their hands for free. If there had to be some compensation, Edwards would have been fine.

It remains to be seen how JRich will fit in with the Cs, but from what I’ve seen, people would seemingly rather not have him on the team. And extending him a year was questionable at best. He’s not really a player that should be making more than the MLE.

I don't disagree with any of this related to Richardson.  What I disagreed with is the notion that we had to give up a first round pick to dump Kemba Walker.  I don't see it that way when as a result of the trade, we ended up with Richardson.  Yes, there was a TPE involved but Richardson also filled in the money we saved by trading Kemba for Horford.

Now whether you like taking on Richardson or not or whether you like extending him is a different debate.  I am pretty happy to get Richardson but there is still a lot to see in terms of what he does.  It looks like his role will be a regular rotation bench wing to provide some scoring and defense.  I think he can be really good in that role but we won't know until we know.

[Big333223]

I wonder what Horford might have been able to do with Randle last night.

As for Kemba, he was 3/8 in his first game for the Knicks and all three of those shots were 3's. I remember him getting his shot swatted a couple of times in pretty embarrassing fashion around the rim. It's just one game but if he can't get to the rim anymore, the Celtics dumping him when they did and getting anything in return at all was a good move.

[Goldstar88]

Yes, 100%. He may be to the C’s what CP3 was to the Suns last year. Al does everything... Scoring, rebounding, passing, shot blocking, leading.

Ime, wanted a team captain? Here he is.

[#1P4P]

I’ll just leave this here:

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105134.0;topicseen

[colincb]

That’s not really how it worked.  We traded for Richardson with the Hayward trade exception, which was the primary asset in that deal.  But, if your view was that the team gave up the #16 pick for Josh Richardson, then we got royally screwed.

Yeah, it’s fine that people want to combine the trades in order to justify it being a better deal, but the fact remains that we probably did DAL a favor taking JRich off their hands for free. If there had to be some compensation, Edwards would have been fine.

It remains to be seen how JRich will fit in with the Cs, but from what I’ve seen, people would seemingly rather not have him on the team. And extending him a year was questionable at best. He’s not really a player that should be making more than the MLE.

I don't disagree with any of this related to Richardson.  What I disagreed with is the notion that we had to give up a first round pick to dump Kemba Walker. I don't see it that way when as a result of the trade, we ended up with Richardson.  Yes, there was a TPE involved but Richardson also filled in the money we saved by trading Kemba for Horford.

Now whether you like taking on Richardson or not or whether you like extending him is a different debate.  I am pretty happy to get Richardson but there is still a lot to see in terms of what he does.  It looks like his role will be a regular rotation bench wing to provide some scoring and defense.  I think he can be really good in that role but we won't know until we know.

What other way was there dump KW than what we did? I thought it was the most obvious solution we had available, but if you had a better idea, what was it?

[Goldstar88]

That’s not really how it worked.  We traded for Richardson with the Hayward trade exception, which was the primary asset in that deal.  But, if your view was that the team gave up the #16 pick for Josh Richardson, then we got royally screwed.

Yeah, it’s fine that people want to combine the trades in order to justify it being a better deal, but the fact remains that we probably did DAL a favor taking JRich off their hands for free. If there had to be some compensation, Edwards would have been fine.

It remains to be seen how JRich will fit in with the Cs, but from what I’ve seen, people would seemingly rather not have him on the team. And extending him a year was questionable at best. He’s not really a player that should be making more than the MLE.

I don't disagree with any of this related to Richardson.  What I disagreed with is the notion that we had to give up a first round pick to dump Kemba Walker. I don't see it that way when as a result of the trade, we ended up with Richardson.  Yes, there was a TPE involved but Richardson also filled in the money we saved by trading Kemba for Horford.

Now whether you like taking on Richardson or not or whether you like extending him is a different debate.  I am pretty happy to get Richardson but there is still a lot to see in terms of what he does.  It looks like his role will be a regular rotation bench wing to provide some scoring and defense.  I think he can be really good in that role but we won't know until we know.

What other way was there dump KW than what we did? I thought it was the most obvious only solution we had available, but if you had a better idea, what was it?

Fixed it. There were no better options. Danny was trying to move him for a while and the only way to unload a negative asset like that was to attach the pick. I’d say it’s worked out very well so far.

[Rikibellevie]

Maybe we underrated him but many overate him maybe in this early season. He is a strong mind when the ship is swaying, still have a good motor for his age, a good collectiv player, correct shooter and a + for the team mindset.
But there is still many limitations like his durability/regularity even this year, his physical deficiense on many other bigs (maybe also why he plays next to Rob ), his capacity in PO to face higher intensity... Not saying he is in a positiv and grit mindset after  2 very hard years, where he felt like a millionair half retreated guy.
He is a core guy : a team leader if we continue to stink, but hopefully a good role player (others have to step up) on a good team.