Kevin McHale - Top Seasons

[Who]

First Team
Bill Russell
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy

Second Team
Dave Cowens
Kevin McHale
Jayson Tatum
Sam Jones
Jojo White

A couple of notes... Obviously, McHale had a bigger long-term impact on the Celtics than KG.  I tried to pick players at their peak, and KG's DPOY, All-First Team NBA and overall intensity in the playoffs in 2008 tipped the scales.  I'm sure others feel that McHale should be above him and I can't say you're wrong.

A jump off from the All-Time Celtics topic.

I am trying to rate Kevin McHale's career by seasons. Also maybe KG as well. So McHale had 13 years in Boston ...

How many years did we have of peak McHale? Prime McHale? Sub-prime McHale? Role player McHale?

Or said differently, how many seasons was McHale

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

My feeling is that McHale had quite a short peak due to injury where he was that top 5 player. In 1985-86, he was a top 5 player. Is that the only season he had as a top 5 player? Or do you think 1987 as well? Or are they more top 10 seasons? Or even just top 25? I'd say 1987 was top 10. I am not sure about 1985.

McHale made the All-Star team 7 times in his Celtics career. His first selection was in 1984. He was overlooked in 1985. He made 2 more appearances before that career altering injury in 1987. So he had a very short peak and arguably similar in length to the peak of Kevin Garnett with the Celtics.

McHale made 4 more All-Star appearances after the injury. He was no longer a top 10 player in the league IMO at that point. Did he deserve all 4 selections? Or was some of it just based on name recognition?

On the starter seasons versus bench player, McHale was clearly a bench player in his final year in 1993. Could he still have been a solid starting caliber PF in 1992? Maybe. What about his rookie year in 1980-81? I believe so, yes. So only 1 maybe 2 bench seasons for me. So 11-12 starting caliber years.

On the flipside, let's look at Kevin Garnett.

He had only 6 years in Boston. He had 1-2 years of peak performance in 2008 and 2009 when he got hurt. He was clearly a top 5 player in 2008 and perhaps in 2009 before the injury as well. He wasn't a top 5 player beyond that. Does this mean he is equal to McHale in top 5 seasons?

Then in 2010 when the Celtics made the Finals, was KG a top 10 player still? Or had he fallen to All-Star level? KG made 3 out of 4 All Star games from 2010-13 when he was traded to Brooklyn. Was he deserving of those late career ASG selections? Probably so.

So KG would have 5 ASG selections in 6 years in Boston. McHale would top him at 7 ASG game selections.

No bench caliber seasons for KG. He was a quality starter in all 6 of his Boston seasons. And got 5 of 6 of them as an All-Star. Arguably all 6 at All-Star level.

If we ask the same question of KG, how many of his 6 seasons with Boston were worthy of:

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

[Donoghus]

'86-87 was McHale's peak.  Top 5 player. All NBA first team. 4th in MVP voting.  He was basically 26/10.

[Who]

McHale 1982 + 1983

I was leaning towards quality starting PF rather than All-Star for these two seasons. His 2nd and 3rd years. McHale came off the bench to average 13.6/14.1ppg and 6.8/6.7rpg in about 28.5mpg. He shot 53-54% in those 2 years.

His per 36 minutes numbers would be roughly 17.5 points and 8.5 rebounds for the two years.

McHale averaged 16ppg and 7rpg in the playoffs in 1982 but only 11ppg and 6rpg in 25mpg in 1983 playoffs. Was 1983 the year Bird broke his hand? They lost to Milwaukee in a sweep that year. If I remember rightly, that was the season. And McHale did not step up. He averaged only 8.8ppg and 5.5rpg in that Milwaukee series.

So I was leaning against McHale as an All-Star for these two seasons and more of a quality starting PF level of performance.

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Then I decided to look at it a different way. I looked at who made the All-Star game for the East in those two years.

1982 forwards = Doc, Bird, Tripucka, Buck Williams, Bobby Jones
1983 forwards = Doc, Bird, Marques Johnson, Buck, Bill Laimbeer.

I would take definitely take McHale over Tripucka and Bobby Jones in 1982 and probably Buck Williams as well. I would definitely take McHale over Bill Laimbeer in 1983 and probably Buck. I would take Marques Johnson ahead of McHale though.

Buck had a couple of great early years. He averaged 15.5ppg and 17ppg in those two years along with 12.5rpg and excellent defense. He shot 58-59% FG%. It wasn't pretty offense but he did enough. He was a one man wrecking crew on the boards those early years in New Jersey.

So this viewpoint makes me want to rate McHale as an All-Star level player for 1982 and 1983. That would add 2 more years to his 7 ASG selections. And probably a 3rd one in 1985. 10 All-Star level seasons to KG's 5-6 ASG level years.

[Who]

2010

I thought the top 2 players in the league were LeBron & D-Wade. I would have taken Dwight Howard #3 although others may have not done so. Kobe Bryant was still playing at an elite level. Kevin Durant just had his breakout season and earned his first selection as First Team All-NBA as well as finishing 2nd in MVP. That is 5 players.

There was also Carmelo Anthony who had one of his best seasons as a pro as Denver made the WCF. There was Pau Gasol as Kobe's running mate and near equal. We had peak Brandon Roy. Peak Deron Williams. CP3 had some injury problems that year and his team missed the playoffs so I will leave him out.

Dirk Nowitzki was in his peak but overlooked until his explosion the following year in 2011. Steve Nash was still playing at a high level in Phoenix. Amare had a great year the year before but managed only 53 games this year. I don't think he is in the conversation.

So that is 11 players (not counting Amare or CP3) + KG. Does KG make the top 10? Is he ahead of 2 of those guys? Or is he just outside the top 10 in 2010?

[Who]

'86-87 was McHale's peak.  Top 5 player. All NBA first team. 4th in MVP voting.  He was basically 26/10.

Ah yes. You are right.

I got my years mixed up. 1987 was this season not 1986.

[Who]

1985

This was McHale's first season as a starter. He moved into the starting lineup in the final 30 games of the season and played as a starter throughout the playoffs. He missed the ASG in 1985 after making it in 1984.

McHale came off the bench for 48 of the first 52 games. He averaged 17.4ppg and 8.5rpg on 56.6% FG% in just 30.4mpg. Great production for low minutes. A 20-10 guy in longer minutes.

So he missed the ASG in that first part of the year. Then got into the starting lineup for the final 27 games. McHale averaged 24.4ppg and 10.6rpg on 57.5% FG% in 39.7 minutes a night. He followed that up with 22ppg 10rpg 2bpg on 57% shooting in 40mpg in the playoffs eventually losing in the Finals to the Lakers in 6.

That has to be an All-Star level campaign.

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The 1985 ASG forwards were Doc, Bird, Bernard King, Terry Cummings and Bill Laimbeer got a place as a forward/center at the end of the bench.

Bernard King was having a phenomenal individual season and was arguably a top 5 player in the league before having that injury that destroyed his career. So you can understand why he got the nod ahead of McHale for the ASG but since King played only half a season and wouldn't return at that level he does not deserve to be ranked ahead of McHale for the full season.

Terry Cummings was phenomenal in 1985. Even so, I'd take McHale over him. They were the 2 best PFs in the league IMO.

McHale was absolutely better than Laimbeer.

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The main question in my mind now is not was McHale an All-Star caliber in 1985 despite not getting selected because he clearly was ... but, was McHale a top 10 player in the league in 1985?

So who was top 10?

- Bird (MVP)
- Magic
- Kareem
- Moses Malone
- Olajuwon (rookie)
- Jordan (rookie)

Bernard King was selected as 1st team NBA that year despite playing only 55 games. Isiah Thomas was also 1st team. Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief were 2nd Team All-NBA. So was Ralph Sampson. Ralph got selected ahead of Olajuwon. I thought Olajuwon was better.

1st team = Zeke, Magic, Bird, B King, Moses
2nd Team = Moncrief, Jordan, T Cummings, R Sampson, Kareem

Yes - is my answer. Yes, McHale was a top 10 NBA player in 1985. So McHale had a 3 year run from 1985, 1986, and 1987 as a top 10 player in the NBA with 1987 being a top 5 season.

I discount B King. I take McHale over Ralph Sampson. Debate over McHale versus Olajuwon, Moncrief or Jordan. Actually, I'd take McHale over Moncrief as well.

[Who]

Or said differently, how many seasons was McHale

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

(a) 1 season
(b) 3 seasons (including top 5 season)
(c) 10 seasons

7 ASG selections. Deserving in 3 more seasons. Need to check final 2 years if McHale warranted ASG selection or not. So 8-10. We will assume he did for now and go with 10 seasons.

(d) 1-2 more starting caliber season (rookie year)
(e) 1-2 bench caliber seasons at end of career

2nd last year is a question mark (starter vs bench caliber). I lean towards starter and believe he only came off the bench because Bird and Parish were aging. That on a different team with quicker frontcourt players McHale would still have started.

So 1 top five season, 3 seasons as a top 10 player, 10 All-Star caliber years, 2 more years as a starting caliber big man, and only one bech player level season in his final year.

[Who]

If we ask the same question of KG, how many of his 6 seasons with Boston were worthy of:

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

(a) 2 seasons
(b) 2-3 seasons (2010 borderline call?)
(c) 6 seasons

So KG was an All-Star level player all 6 years. He never dipped below that level. He didn't get the nod in 2012 but I would take KG over Deng and/or Hibbert (easily).

I think KG has a comparable number of years as McHale as a top 5 / top 10 player. Peak KG vs peak McHale [Boston years only]. McHale has numerous more All-Star level campaigns though with a 10 to 6 lead. Plus 2 more starting caliber years.

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I agree with aefgogreen that KG peaked higher than McHale. KG was closer to MVP and probably deserved the MVP in hindsight in 2008 than McHale was at his peak in 2010. I also think KG had a good argument in 2009 (despite so-so numbers at 15.8ppg 8.5rpg) as being superior to McHale in 1987 as well. So arguably the top 2 seasons. Then McHale in 1987. It would be interesting to think about how McHale's 1985 and 1986 seasons compare to KG's 2010 season. I'd take McHale's two years over KG's 2010.

[Roy H.]

If we ask the same question of KG, how many of his 6 seasons with Boston were worthy of:

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

(a) 2 seasons
(b) 2-3 seasons (2010 borderline call?)
(c) 6 seasons

So KG was an All-Star level player all 6 years. He never dipped below that level. He didn't get the nod in 2012 but I would take KG over Deng and/or Hibbert (easily).

I think KG has a comparable number of years as McHale as a top 5 / top 10 player. Peak KG vs peak McHale [Boston years only]. McHale has numerous more All-Star level campaigns though with a 10 to 6 lead. Plus 2 more starting caliber years.

I agree with aefgogreen that KG peaked higher than McHale. He was closer to MVP and probably deserved the MVP in hindsight in 2008 than McHale was at his peak in 2010. I also think KG had a strong argument in 2009 as being superior to McHale in 1987 as well. So arguably the top 2 seasons. Then McHale in 1987. It would be interesting to think about how McHale's 1985 and 1986 seasons compare to KG's 2010 season. I'd take McHale's two years over KG's 2010.

I don't think we can count 2009 as a full season.  Missing the playoffs makes the season impossible to evaluate in normal terms.

[Who]

If we ask the same question of KG, how many of his 6 seasons with Boston were worthy of:

(a) A top 5 NBA player (MVP conversation)
(b) A top 10 NBA player (All-League)
(c) A top 25 NBA player (All-Star)
(d) Quality starting caliber big man
(e) Bench player

(a) 2 seasons
(b) 2-3 seasons (2010 borderline call?)
(c) 6 seasons

So KG was an All-Star level player all 6 years. He never dipped below that level. He didn't get the nod in 2012 but I would take KG over Deng and/or Hibbert (easily).

I think KG has a comparable number of years as McHale as a top 5 / top 10 player. Peak KG vs peak McHale [Boston years only]. McHale has numerous more All-Star level campaigns though with a 10 to 6 lead. Plus 2 more starting caliber years.

I agree with aefgogreen that KG peaked higher than McHale. He was closer to MVP and probably deserved the MVP in hindsight in 2008 than McHale was at his peak in 2010. I also think KG had a strong argument in 2009 as being superior to McHale in 1987 as well. So arguably the top 2 seasons. Then McHale in 1987. It would be interesting to think about how McHale's 1985 and 1986 seasons compare to KG's 2010 season. I'd take McHale's two years over KG's 2010.

I don't think we can count 2009 as a full season.  Missing the playoffs makes the season impossible to evaluate in normal terms.

Yeah, I am not sure what to do with seasons with like that.

[Who]

McHale 1990 & 1991

Yeah, looks like McHale deserved ASG selections both years.

In 1991, his closest competition in the East for an All-Star nod came from Horace Grant (12-8 strong D). A rookie Derrick Coleman (inefficient 18-10). Kevin Willis (13ppg 9rpg).

Meanwhile, McHale averaged 18.4ppg, 7.1rpg, 2.1bpg in just 30.4mpg as he came off the bench. He did it on 60.6% TS% (13th best in the league). His defense was good when he could hang in the paint but poor when forced to move too much especially in transition. Still, his offensive game and good interior D made him a more effective player than any of his competition. 

So if he deserved it in 1991, it is hard to imagine he did not in 1990 when he had a similar campaign.

In 1990, McHale was even better. He averaged 20.9ppg 8.3rpg in 33.4mpg. He added 2.2 blocks per game. He scored even more efficiently ranking 6th best in the league in TS% at 62.3%.

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Edit: Oh, I missed Larry Nance. He should have been an All-Star in both 1990 and 1991. He was putting up 19.2ppg 8.6rpg, 3.0apg 2.5bpg on efficient scoring with high level defense in 1991. In averaged 16.3ppg, 8.4rpg, 2.6apg, 2.2bpg on efficient scoring with high level defense in 1990. Nance was overlooked for the ASG both years.

I think both McHale and L Nance deserved to make it. That puts a squeeze on things.

So the 1991 team had Barkley and B King as starters. King had that incredible comeback season in Washington. Then they had McHale and Dominique Wilkins as backups. All 4 deserving. Bird was selected but did not play. They had 2 backup centers with Robert Parish and Brad Daugherty. Both deserving. They named Hersey Hawkins as Bird's injury replacement. Still, I would go with McHale & Nance over H Hawkins. 2 guards (A Robertson, R Pierce). 3 forwards (McHale, Nance, Nique). 2 centers (Parish, Daugherty). As my ASG East bench.

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That 1990 game is one of my favourite All-Star games (if I am remembering the right one!). That is the one with the best defense. They had an incredible defensive selection with Dennis Rodman making the game along with a bunch of other talented defenders. The East crushed the West with their defense. Overwhelmed them. It was a great game.

East Starters - Zeke, MJ, Bird, Barkley, Ewing
East Bench - Dumars, R Miller, Nique, Pippen, Rodman, McHale, Parish

That bench is insane. R Miller is the only so-so defender. McHale probably the 2nd weakest. Even then, he was mainly slow in transition and away from the hoop but he was still very good in the paint. 

Okay, so that bench has only 2 guards and 1 center. Then 4 forwards. So there is no room for another forward. L Nance had a strong candidacy as well. Cleveland had a bad season (.500) so we'll leave out Nance. Strong competition in the East for forwards this year.

Rodman is probably the most vulnerable to being left out. 1st year as a full time starter. Started at SF. Averaged 8.8ppg 9.7rpg in just 29mpg as a starting SF while winning DPOY. I think the choice would be between Rodman and Nance rather than McHale and Nance.

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So 10 All Star caliber seasons for McHale IMO.