Doc on WEEI: "No one said no" to Perk trade

[GreenEnvy]

Enough is enough.

We didn't trade Pierce for a rack of practice balls. We didn't trade Rondo for Ramon Sessions. We traded our 5th best starter who was due for a contract negotiation that could have gotten ugly.

We didn't trade the franchise. The didn't trade the future.

I don't get any of this.

(And don't get me wrong, I love Perk)

[the_Bird]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per. 

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

btw, Shaq (1.3) and JO (5.7) combined are at 7, and still cheaper than Perkins.  All are injury prone, while 1 just came off major knee surgery.  I'll take the 2 for 1.

I'd wager (very heavily) on Perkins playing more total minutes in 2011-2012 than Shaq and JO combined.  No reason to believe that Perk's injuries will impact him long-term, while we know that JO's playing bone-on-bone and that Shaq is nearly done.  I'd have wagered heavily at the time of the trade that Perk was going to contribute more than both of those guys would this year.  

Perk's not 100%, but he's playing at a very high level even at 85% or 90%.  Give him another offseason and he'll be fine.  Shaq and JO have barely been able to play at all.

[the_Bird]

Enough is enough.

We didn't trade Pierce for a rack of practice balls. We didn't trade Rondo for Ramon Sessions. We traded our 5th best starter who was due for a contract negotiation that could have gotten ugly.

We didn't trade the franchise. The didn't trade the future.

I don't get any of this.

(And don't get me wrong, I love Perk)

Modification.  We traded our fifth-best starter for our new seventh man.  Who's also due for a new contract, and (in my opinion) is VERY likely to walk this offseason (since Danny seems committed to leaving 2012's books open).

[bbd24]

Wow.  There are still people out there that think this was a good trade?

Then again I didn't even think anybody would be for it when it happened.

Actually, I don't think it was just a good trade.  It was a GREAT trade.

You add up all the details involved and you can't think otherwise.

-- Perkins coming off major knee surgery

-- Perkins getting injured yet again after coming back on a standard play

-- Roster depleted with Injuries including Perkins at the time

-- Your team with free agents or additions like Shaq, JO, and Semih didn't miss a beat when Perkins was down and out

-- Can't sign Perk for 4/5 M per

-- Core 4 still here

-- Your not giving him 8/9 M per next season with the core 4 here

-- Received a 24 yr old whose just getting his feet wet in the league who has far more upside than Perkins at this point in his career

-- Also got a backup Center with starter experience, with a future 1st round Clipper pick to help down the road as well

-- Value returned was far greater than letting an injured player walk in the future for virtually nothing

[the_Bird]

Actually, I don't think it was just a good trade.  It was a GREAT trade.

You add up all the details involved and you can't think otherwise.

-- Perkins coming off major knee surgery

...  and he was back in the lineup, playing pretty [dang] well even at less than 100%.

-- Perkins getting injured yet again after coming back on a standard play

...  and he was back again in a couple weeks, and helping OKC dramatically improve their defensive play

-- Roster depleted with Injuries including Perkins at the time

...  so you trade Semih for Anthony Parker, unload Quis and 'Gody (like they did) and sign some combo of Dropkick/Sasha/Arroyo

-- Your team with free agents or additions like Shaq, JO, and Semih didn't miss a beat when Perkins was down and out

... and both Shaq and JO were out indefinitely with injuries at the time, with JO only returning very recently and Shaq playing what, five minutes since the trade?

-- Can't sign Perk for 4/5 M per

...  so you sign him in the offseason.  Miami wants him, but only has the MLE (we can offer more).  OKC wants him, not sure if they could have offered much more than the deal they gave him.

-- Core 4 still here

...  and the second most-important defensive player is not (the guy most agree was the biggest reason we lost game 7)

-- Your not giving him 8/9 M per next season with the core 4 here

...  you giving that money to Green?

-- Received a 24 yr old whose just getting his feet wet in the league who has far more upside than Perkins at this point in his career

...  who's due to become a restricted free agent, and apparently is looking for $10M per year, and frankly should be a better player than he is.  Oh, and who will probably walk, since Danny has no interest in adding salary beyond 2012. 

-- Also got a backup Center with starter experience, with a future 1st round Clipper pick to help down the road as well

...  Ok.  More concerned with 2011 playoffs than the Clipper pick.

-- Value returned was far greater than letting an injured player walk in the future for virtually nothing

...  I'm just going to respectfully disagree.

[Lucky17]

I looked around yesterday to see if I could find actual, hard numbers reported on what Green was asking OKC for in terms of an extension.

Couldn't find any direct quotes, just a lot of speculation that it would be in the ballpark of $8-$10 mil per year.

Really looking forward to seeing the new CBA come out. Until then, there's just way too much obscuring the future of the league, let alone a final verdict on "The Trade."

[Chris]

...  and he was back again in a couple weeks, and helping OKC dramatically improve their defensive play

Not to hijack this, because it doesn't directly relate to whether the trade was good or bad for the C's, but the more I watch of Jeff Green playing PF, I think we can ask a legitimate question of how much OKC's good play since the trade has had to do with Perkins, and how much has had to do with not having Green starting at PF.

I am just amazed that they were as good as they were with him playing so clearly way out of position.  Not to take anything away from Perk, but based on what I have seen so far from Green at PF (I think he has been decent at SF, but attrocious at PF), I wonder if a lot of the improvement came from just being able to play guys at more natural positions.

[GreenEnvy]

Enough is enough.

We didn't trade Pierce for a rack of practice balls. We didn't trade Rondo for Ramon Sessions. We traded our 5th best starter who was due for a contract negotiation that could have gotten ugly.

We didn't trade the franchise. The didn't trade the future.

I don't get any of this.

(And don't get me wrong, I love Perk)

Modification.  We traded our fifth-best starter for our new seventh man.  Who's also due for a new contract, and (in my opinion) is VERY likely to walk this offseason (since Danny seems committed to leaving 2012's books open).

He's our sixth man, as he can play 3 positions and is extremely versatile.

I think Ainge is significantly more likely to pay a player like Green for the long haul than Perk. He's committed to leaving the books open for one reason, and we all know who that is.

Also, if we are healthy, yes it's a big if, we wouldn't need Perk all that much with Shaq, JO, and Murphy (and Krstic). Who would you like backing up Pierce in the playoffs if not for Green? Pavlovic?

It may not be AS important as a good center, but keeping Pierce fresh is extremely important. We saw the disadvantages of both in game 7. The thing is, once 'Quis went down, we had nothing for Pierce. Ainge believes in the O'Neals, and when healthy, for good reason.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Krstic is here, and other than his recent injury, he's healthy. So while JO and Shaq are hurt, we actually got healthier by trading Perk.

[wdleehi]

Krstic is here, and other than his recent injury, he's healthy. So while JO and Shaq are hurt, we actually got healthier by trading Perk.

Perk is healthy right now as well.  Except his team uses him as a starter. 

[LB3533]

Should we start Jeff Green then at PF and play KG at Center?

We did use Nenad as our starter too.

[the_Bird]

...  and he was back again in a couple weeks, and helping OKC dramatically improve their defensive play

Not to hijack this, because it doesn't directly relate to whether the trade was good or bad for the C's, but the more I watch of Jeff Green playing PF, I think we can ask a legitimate question of how much OKC's good play since the trade has had to do with Perkins, and how much has had to do with not having Green starting at PF.

I am just amazed that they were as good as they were with him playing so clearly way out of position.  Not to take anything away from Perk, but based on what I have seen so far from Green at PF (I think he has been decent at SF, but attrocious at PF), I wonder if a lot of the improvement came from just being able to play guys at more natural positions.

I thought about that.

Directly related to this, one of the "selling points" of The Trade was that Green was a very versatile, Posey-esque player.  I think we're seeing, both in Green's play here and in OKC's success with a more traditional PF in their lineup, that he's really *not* a very versatile player - he's a small forward, plain and simple.

I mean, hell, I remember Walt McCarty getting a few minutes at the 5, doesn't mean it was a good idea!

So basically, Green's a player that only really plays well at Pierce's position.  He's not a guy that you really want backing up KG.  He's not a guy that you really want to plug into BBD's role next season.  That limits his worth to the C's...  and if he's not likely to get much more playing time next season as a result, makes it more likely he pushes to go elsewhere as a free agent.

[bbd24]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per. 

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

btw, Shaq (1.3) and JO (5.7) combined are at 7, and still cheaper than Perkins.  All are injury prone, while 1 just came off major knee surgery.  I'll take the 2 for 1.

I'd wager (very heavily) on Perkins playing more total minutes in 2011-2012 than Shaq and JO combined.  No reason to believe that Perk's injuries will impact him long-term, while we know that JO's playing bone-on-bone and that Shaq is nearly done.  I'd have wagered heavily at the time of the trade that Perk was going to contribute more than both of those guys would this year.  

Perk's not 100%, but he's playing at a very high level even at 85% or 90%.  Give him another offseason and he'll be fine.  Shaq and JO have barely been able to play at all.

Thats the difference.  I don't wager that money on someone coming off that injury.  Too much investment.  I'll invest in someone else.

I also don't want to pay someone that kind of cash for 15-20 mins a night.  I'll pay someone else to play with the core 4.

[wdleehi]

Should we start Jeff Green then at PF and play KG at Center?

We did use Nenad as our starter too.

No. 



Green is a starting SF in the NBA.  It is to bad he has to be behind one of the top 5 SF in the  NBA today.  His talents will never fully be exploited as long as Pierce (the better player) is ahead of him. 



Nenad is on the verge of dropping completely out of the rotation. 

[Yogi]

  Perk is one of the toughest guy in the NBA.  He is one of the low-post defenders in the league.  He's a great teammate and he fit in beautifully with the Big 4.  He's not nearly as injury prone as some people make him out to be.  That being said, people are delusional if they think he's better than JO.  Even after his surgery, JO if not as intense is just as tough as Perk.  JO while not as good a low post defender, is a better shot blocker and better help defender who takes more charges while drawing less fouls.  JO is a serious offensive threat that cannot be left alone even for a moment.  This fact alone makes KG better because people can't help off him to guard KG.  Although we don't go to him, JO CAN and WILL score on iso situations against smaller or slower guys which was impossible for Perk.  JO is a 6 time all-star who can rebound, pass, shoot free-throws, and finish at the basket better than Perk.  He's 32 and has plenty of gas left in his tank compared to Shaq and KG.  The guy was hand-picked to be our starting center for this season by Danny and Doc.  He's been unlucky this season with the timing of his surgery but that was not his fault but the doctors'.  Giving JO 6 mil a year is a steal.  Giving Perk 8 mil a year is not unreasonable, but we can fill that need for less money for the near future.  Lakers have 3 skilled bigs who will see time in the playoffs.  If healthy, we have Kg, JO, Baby, Shaq and Kristic.  I don't think Troy Murphy will see minutes in the Playoffs.  Even Green might fill in at the 4 for some minutes.  Even without Perk, we have easliy the Biggest Baddest frontline in the NBA.  There is absolutely no need for another Big guy.