Is the Superfriends era over?

[W8ting2McHale]

I saw this quote in the Spurs game thread:

Mikal Bridges, Spencer Dinwiddie, and Cam Johnson have played more minutes together for the Brooklyn Nets than KD, Kyrie Irving, and James Harden did.

I'm not saying you don't need a Big 3, or at least a Big 2 plus a sidekick,  but it seems like the era of Lebron or KD getting other stars to team up for a championship is dying away. Players like Damian Lillard and Bradley Beal are staying with their original team instead of forcing their way to join a Superfriends team.

Are the current crop of stars looking at the Bucks, Celtics, or Nuggets and seeing a contender built the right way? Are they looking at the recent failures of Superfriends teams due to injuries and lack of chemistry?

Maybe it's not true, but I hope it is. And JKJB.

[tenn_smoothie]

I have very little respect for the players who have done this.
And isn't it ironic that all of them are sensitive little drama queens, Lebron, Durant, Kyrie.

Reminds me of this guy from high school, who when we played pickup in the summer, would make every effort to get all the best players on his side and if he failed, would go to the second court in that gym to play with the younger and less talented kids.

[celticsclay]

I think the with the super max contracts the Lebron model of bosh and Wade or love and irving just don’t work anymore. He tried it one last time with Westbrook and was obviously a disaster.

[Kernewek]

I have very little respect for the players who have done this.
And isn't it ironic that all of them are sensitive little drama queens, Lebron, Durant, Kyrie.

Reminds me of this guy from high school, who when we played pickup in the summer, would make every effort to get all the best players on his side and if he failed, would go to the second court in that gym to play with the younger and less talented kids.

So, uh, no love for Paul KG and Ray?

[slamtheking]

I have very little respect for the players who have done this.
And isn't it ironic that all of them are sensitive little drama queens, Lebron, Durant, Kyrie.

Reminds me of this guy from high school, who when we played pickup in the summer, would make every effort to get all the best players on his side and if he failed, would go to the second court in that gym to play with the younger and less talented kids.

So, uh, no love for Paul KG and Ray?

much, much different scenario.  there was no player collusion to coordinate playing for the same team.  Celtics gave up a lot of prime assets in trades to get Ray and KG.   

the other scenarios were players colluding behind the scenes to team up together via free agency (or forced trades) to boost their chances of winning. 

[gouki88]

I don't think so, I think it might have just been slightly countered by supermax deals and the like. We still see people like Durant force their way to contenders

[Who]

Beal said the reason he stayed with Washington was there was no good teams with cap space when he was a free agent. So he never had a choice of joining up with others to make a super-team as a FA.

So he took the money.

[Kernewek]

I have very little respect for the players who have done this.
And isn't it ironic that all of them are sensitive little drama queens, Lebron, Durant, Kyrie.

Reminds me of this guy from high school, who when we played pickup in the summer, would make every effort to get all the best players on his side and if he failed, would go to the second court in that gym to play with the younger and less talented kids.

So, uh, no love for Paul KG and Ray?

much, much different scenario.  there was no player collusion to coordinate playing for the same team.  Celtics gave up a lot of prime assets in trades to get Ray and KG.   

the other scenarios were players colluding behind the scenes to team up together via free agency (or forced trades) to boost their chances of winning.

That's optimistic re: player intention and, as far as assets go: we traded #5 (Jeff Green), Delonte, and Wally for Ray. Jeff Green is fine, but he's not a 'prime asset', and wasn't considered such at the time (neither was the pick). To wit:

Initial reaction to the trade was far from complimentary to Boston. Frank Hughes of The News Tribune in Tacoma, Wash., made a lap of the reporters at the draft and wrote, "The general consensus was that the 30-year-old Presti fleeced Celtics general manager Danny Ainge, [who was] trying desperately to hold onto his and coach Doc Rivers's jobs."

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/07/27/boston-celtics-kevin-garnett-danny-ainge-ray-allen-paul-pierce-trade


There's some merit to discussing an actual difference betwen the teams (the relative age of the players compared to Miami), but without the Celtics Big 3 the Heatles most likely never materialise, because they don't need to make it past the Celtics' Big 3.

From the same article as above - Pierce and KG say they never talked about it, but that's just as plausible as Wade and Bosh saying they never talked about playing in Miami, right?

And Garnett was growing more intrigued with the Celtics. First, he had never played with teammates as talented as Pierce and Allen, with whom he could instantly contend for the Eastern Conference championship. Second, he had a friendship with Allen dating back to their high school days in South Carolina. "I didn't speak publicly, really didn't say too much to my friends or any of that," says Garnett. "But I really tried to be comfortable with seeing myself in a Celtics jersey."

He had no idea how Pierce felt about it, however. Garnett has an off-season home in Malibu, and before the draft—amid widespread reports of his possible trade to Boston—he had run into Pierce in a pickup game at UCLA, where Pierce, an L.A. native, is a regular. Yet Pierce had nothing to say to KG about their potentially becoming teammates. "He didn't even bring it up," says Garnett, confused by Pierce's seeming lack of enthusiasm.

The truth was, Pierce did not give any credence to the rumors, having been let down too many times by talk of everyone from Baron Davis to Allen Iverson coming to his rescue in Boston. So he rolled his eyes at the buzz about Garnett joining the Celtics. "I just thought there was no possible way," says Pierce, "and left it at that."

[Donoghus]

No, I still think you'll see friends trying to angle to play with each other every once & awhile.

[tazzmaniac]

Beal said the reason he stayed with Washington was there was no good teams with cap space when he was a free agent. So he never had a choice of joining up with others to make a super-team as a FA.

So he took the money.

Like other stars have, I expect he could have forced a trade.  I expect he could have taken less money to make it work.  i expect the real answer was that he didn't see a situation where he was willing to give up what it would cost him to make it work. 

[greg683x]

I have very little respect for the players who have done this.
And isn't it ironic that all of them are sensitive little drama queens, Lebron, Durant, Kyrie.

Reminds me of this guy from high school, who when we played pickup in the summer, would make every effort to get all the best players on his side and if he failed, would go to the second court in that gym to play with the younger and less talented kids.

So, uh, no love for Paul KG and Ray?

much, much different scenario.  there was no player collusion to coordinate playing for the same team.  Celtics gave up a lot of prime assets in trades to get Ray and KG.   

the other scenarios were players colluding behind the scenes to team up together via free agency (or forced trades) to boost their chances of winning.

That's optimistic re: player intention and, as far as assets go: we traded #5 (Jeff Green), Delonte, and Wally for Ray. Jeff Green is fine, but he's not a 'prime asset', and wasn't considered such at the time (neither was the pick). To wit:

Initial reaction to the trade was far from complimentary to Boston. Frank Hughes of The News Tribune in Tacoma, Wash., made a lap of the reporters at the draft and wrote, "The general consensus was that the 30-year-old Presti fleeced Celtics general manager Danny Ainge, [who was] trying desperately to hold onto his and coach Doc Rivers's jobs."

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/07/27/boston-celtics-kevin-garnett-danny-ainge-ray-allen-paul-pierce-trade


There's some merit to discussing an actual difference betwen the teams (the relative age of the players compared to Miami), but without the Celtics Big 3 the Heatles most likely never materialise, because they don't need to make it past the Celtics' Big 3.

From the same article as above - Pierce and KG say they never talked about it, but that's just as plausible as Wade and Bosh saying they never talked about playing in Miami, right?

And Garnett was growing more intrigued with the Celtics. First, he had never played with teammates as talented as Pierce and Allen, with whom he could instantly contend for the Eastern Conference championship. Second, he had a friendship with Allen dating back to their high school days in South Carolina. "I didn't speak publicly, really didn't say too much to my friends or any of that," says Garnett. "But I really tried to be comfortable with seeing myself in a Celtics jersey."

He had no idea how Pierce felt about it, however. Garnett has an off-season home in Malibu, and before the draft—amid widespread reports of his possible trade to Boston—he had run into Pierce in a pickup game at UCLA, where Pierce, an L.A. native, is a regular. Yet Pierce had nothing to say to KG about their potentially becoming teammates. "He didn't even bring it up," says Garnett, confused by Pierce's seeming lack of enthusiasm.

The truth was, Pierce did not give any credence to the rumors, having been let down too many times by talk of everyone from Baron Davis to Allen Iverson coming to his rescue in Boston. So he rolled his eyes at the buzz about Garnett joining the Celtics. "I just thought there was no possible way," says Pierce, "and left it at that."

I guess the use of the word prime is debatable, but at the end of the day, if you leave the names and career paths which weren’t known at the time out of it, we gave up a top 5 pick, a fringe starting PG/SG, along with a lower tier NBA semi star for a 32 year old star coming off two ankle surgeries. It was a huge gamble with the asset that was essentially all the fans had to hang onto after a putrid season and missing out on Oden/Durant

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

[JohnBoy65]

This topic is really an interesting conversation to have. Guys like Beal, Lillard, Jokic, Dirk, and there are more. When they try to make it work in the town they were drafted, but don't win. They're labeled as players who don't care about winning, and only money. So is it really a lose lose for these guys. If not for Kevin Durant's big toe, people would be talking about Giannis this way too. I do feel bad, at times, for NBA players and the narratives they have to contend with.

[Moranis]

In order for the Heat to acquire both James and Bosh they had to make several trades giving up assets, including recent #2 pick Beasley. 

They actually traded for Lebron as well giving up 2 1st's, 2 2nd's, and a 1st round pick swap (one of the 2nd's actually turned into Jae Crowder).   They also traded for Bosh giving up a 1st round pick in 2011 and giving the Raptors back their own pick was ended up the #5 pick in the 2011 draft which they used on Valanciunas. 

In other words, those trades alone was a lot of draft capital, but the Heat had all those other trades and moves just to get to that point. For example, they traded recent 1st rounder Cook and the 18th pick in the draft (Bledsoe) for the 32nd pick (Pittman).  Beasley they traded for 2 2nd round picks.  They let a bunch of players expire and leave in free agency and basically gutted their team (which is one of the reasons they lost to Dallas that 1st season).  Had Lebron actually been able to convince Bosh to go to Cleveland, the Heat would have been terrible

[Kernewek]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

[slamtheking]

Prime assets or not, it was team/asset management that put that team together, not player collusion, which ultimately I think was his point

Yeah, what I'm saying is that his point is optimistic, at best
 
Player collusion is a tricky thing to define and it's hard to prove definitively. KG didn't have a no-trade clause, but he was on the last year of his contract and could walk for nothing without signing an extension, so the idea that he didn't have to be wooed is a little silly.

In fact, KG has talked about this, at length, if you want to hear it in the very singular way that KG can tell it, it starts around the 50 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2heygSelm4A

you know about I looked at it like this I was like man I got one chance Oakland, I had Phoenix I had the Lakers and I had the Celtics and I'm just being honest with everybody I wanted to link with Kobe 'cause  and I had like a different a different connect like when Kobe Shaq when their little thing went on a lot of people went with Shaq, a lot of people didn't even f- with Kobe you know, Kobe whatever I'm on the very few that stayed with him and just I was a neutral guy anyway I showed everybody love, but Kobe respected dogs. Like real cats.

 I tried to link with him, and I couldn't get him on the line and he was like s-

Chaunce is like 'Dawg you got to get off that [ __ ] him and T Lou was just showing me like yo you gotta. this you're  chance to'  go get with somebody you can give him somebody real you can man that same [ __ ] you doing in minnesota you'll put there with somebody else before you you know I'm saying sounds like [ __ I shouted Kobe... he wouldn't pick the line up. So T-Lue and Kobe are close and T-Lou was like 'shoot at him again and see what he on', so I shot at him, he didn't hit back... I had to make a decision coming down and you know you know I'm making decisions by myself, I'm talking to my my wife at the time and I'm like asking her like she's like go with your gut so I was like [ __ ] Danny Ainge flew in and got right to it.

So, sure, KG had absolutely no say in forming the big 3. 

Edit: a little later:

and then I actually called Steve Nash just at the courtesy and I guess the call... he kicked me back was like yo if you come down here we need you to take a major pay cut and I was like okay if I come down now I'm playing with you and A'mare right? And he said I think they're gonna give A'Mare up for you and Shawn and I said so who... but it's me and you? Biiiiig sigh.... yeah so I got to pick a pay cut and then we're back in this position and we in the West...

you missed my point completely.  You're getting hung up on what you consider to be the value of the assets -- known with 20/20 hindsight.  At that time, the #5 pick was a prime asset and Delonte was a solid young player.  Wally was salary filler.   Ray was coming off surgeries and not the player he once was.  As your own quote in your initial post stated - the league overall felt Danny got fleeced as did much of the fanbase.

KG needed to be talked into coming to Boston -- by ownership, management and Pierce.  There was no collusion between KG, Ray and Pierce to all get together in Boston to stack the odds of winning a title. 

That's the point I'm making and you missed.   This is not the situation that occurred with Miami where Bron, Bosh and Wade all colluded to get to Miami to stack the deck in their favor for titles.  The fact Miami gave up some picks to make that happen is not terribly relevant since the work of getting these players to come to Miami had already been done by the players -- no having to convince them nor having to convince the management in Cleveland or Toronto to give them up in trades --> they were leaving and those franchises were just trying to get some compensation and the compensation they got was not close to what they gave up.

Brooklyn with Kyrie and Durant -- similar issue where players colluded to play together to stack the deck in their favor.  Harden forcing a trade to get to Brooklyn to further stack those odds plays to this situation.