How much upside does Joe have?

[Goldstar88]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

To start the season, the C’s had Richardson, Schroder, Kanter, Hernangomez, Langford and a better version of Grant. After the trade deadline they had White, Theis, and a better version of Grant. Ime had the luxury of going with a shortened rotation since the starters weren’t regularly missing time. That isn’t possible this year. A lot of the teams struggles this season comes down to the fact that they aren’t healthy. 3 starters were missing from yesterdays game, yet no one mentions that.

[Roy H.]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

To start the season, the C’s had Richardson, Schroder, Kanter, Hernangomez, Langford and a better version of Grant. After the trade deadline they had White, Theis, and a better version of Grant. Ime had the luxury of going with a shortened rotation since the starters weren’t regularly missing time. That isn’t possible this year. A lot of the teams struggles this season comes down to the fact that they aren’t healthy. 3 starters were missing from yesterdays game, yet no one mentions that.

Eh.  Your statement that last year‘s team had more depth is simply incorrect.  You’re shifting the goal posts all over the place, first to the beginning of last season (when the team played poorly) and then to injuries, which have nothing to do with depth.

This year’s overall depth is significantly better.  No reasonable person could disagree.

[NextCeltic34]

Losing Udoka was one thing, but losing Hardy might have been even more detrimental. If only we knew about the scandal sooner, we could have kept Hardy and gave him the position right away.

I don't understand why we went with Joe. It was literally a I think I'm smarter then everyone move by Stevens.

[Roy H.]

Losing Udoka was one thing, but losing Hardy might have been even more detrimental. If only we knew about the scandal sooner, we could have kept Hardy and gave him the position right away.

I don't understand why we went with Joe. It was literally a I think I'm smarter then everyone move by Stevens.

I think it’s more that they took so long to make a decision on Ime’s future.  If I am remembering correctly, the inappropriate behavior had ended by July, but Ime wasn’t suspended until late September.

Leaving the situation unresolved for over two months without lining up replacements was just stupid. By the time they acted, there weren’t really any great coaching candidates left.

[Goldstar88]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

To start the season, the C’s had Richardson, Schroder, Kanter, Hernangomez, Langford and a better version of Grant. After the trade deadline they had White, Theis, and a better version of Grant. Ime had the luxury of going with a shortened rotation since the starters weren’t regularly missing time. That isn’t possible this year. A lot of the teams struggles this season comes down to the fact that they aren’t healthy. 3 starters were missing from yesterdays game, yet no one mentions that.

Eh.  Your statement that last year‘s team had more depth is simply incorrect.  You’re shifting the goal posts all over the place, first to the beginning of last season (when the team played poorly) and then to injuries, which have nothing to do with depth.

This year’s overall depth is significantly better.  No reasonable person could disagree.

My statement was about the C’s overall depth last year (which is what you asked) from start to finish. I also mentioned the health of the team, which impacts the rotation and how far down the depth chart the coach has to go. Again, Ime didn’t have to deal with rotation players being out on a regular basis and could go with a short rotation. He was in a much better situation last season than Joe has been this year. I don’t see how that can be ignored.

[Roy H.]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

To start the season, the C’s had Richardson, Schroder, Kanter, Hernangomez, Langford and a better version of Grant. After the trade deadline they had White, Theis, and a better version of Grant. Ime had the luxury of going with a shortened rotation since the starters weren’t regularly missing time. That isn’t possible this year. A lot of the teams struggles this season comes down to the fact that they aren’t healthy. 3 starters were missing from yesterdays game, yet no one mentions that.

Eh.  Your statement that last year‘s team had more depth is simply incorrect.  You’re shifting the goal posts all over the place, first to the beginning of last season (when the team played poorly) and then to injuries, which have nothing to do with depth.

This year’s overall depth is significantly better.  No reasonable person could disagree.

My statement was about the C’s overall depth last year (which is what you asked) from start to finish. I also mentioned the health of the team, which impacts the rotation and how far down the depth chart the coach has to go. Again, Ime didn’t have to deal with rotation players being out on a regular basis and could go with a short rotation. He was in a much better situation last season than Joe has been this year. I don’t see how that can be ignored.

Timelord: 21 games missed
JB:  16 games missed
Smart:  11 games missed
Horford: 13 games missed
Tatum:  6 games missed

Ime had to deal with plenty of injuries last year.  It’s not the same as this season, but Joe has also had fewer major changes to personnel during the season.

[gouki88]

I think the upside is there, if the FO puts him in a better place to succeed with assistant coaches (we seem to continue to lose them without replacement). He is still very young, and clearly knows how to get a locker-room to gel.

[RodyTur10]

Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?

I agree with you Roy. In fact, the Celtics have on one of the deepest benches in the league. That's not the issue.

[SCeltic34]

In his stint thus far I don't see much upside.  Then again I've been down on Joe for most of the season.  Even when we had the best record I saw too many questionable decisions and poor in-game management, especially in the 4th quarter.  He and the rest of our team don't seem to learn from mistakes.  And he sure as heck isn't getting the most out of the talent on this roster.

But, hopefully someone who knows more about basketball than I do ends up being correct.  An article today from the Athletic featuring none other than Danny Ainge:

SALT LAKE CITY – Danny Ainge hinted there would be days like this.

Hours before the Boston Celtics lost to the Utah Jazz on a busted play in the final seconds of Saturday’s game, Ainge detailed to The Athletic why he believes so strongly in Boston coach Joe Mazzulla. Ainge did not say Mazzulla would be perfect every night. As Ainge pointed out, coaches never are. They make mistakes throughout a game. Iffy substitution patterns. Bad play calls. Misguided defensive strategies. Whatever the case may be.

“As a coach, you never get it right,” Ainge said. “It’s just like as a player. You’re going to make a mistake, multiple mistakes in the same game, mistakes that you think may even cost your team a win here and there.”

Mazzulla might have felt that way Saturday night. On the final, busted play of a 118-117 loss to the Jazz, the Celtics wanted to put the ball into Jayson Tatum’s hands but everything fell apart. Mazzulla called for an inbound play that involved Grant Williams running a dribble handoff for Tatum, but the Jazz defended the action in such a way that Williams broke off the intended set. Instead of passing the ball to Tatum, he drove toward Jazz center Walker Kessler, one of the NBA’s best shot blockers. Williams gave a detailed explanation of his decision-making process. He had plenty of reasons for reacting the way he did. Even if they were all sound, Kessler denied Williams’ shot attempt. The disappointing defeat dropped the Celtics into third place in the Eastern Conference.

Mazzulla’s plan failed. Boston did not produce a clean look at the basket on their final play. Beyond that, Mazzulla decided not to play Derrick White at all in the fourth quarter even with the Celtics missing three of their usual starters, including fellow guard Marcus Smart. White has consistently been one of Boston’s best players this season, but Mazzulla has often left him on the bench during key minutes.

As an All-NBA player, Tatum never sits during crunchtime. He still somehow went scoreless throughout the entire second half against Utah, leaving him with just 15 points, his fourth-lowest total of the season.

“I don’t know if there’s regrets,” Mazzulla said when asked specifically about that. “But I think any time one of your best players doesn’t score (in a half) as a coach, you have to be better. … So I can definitely do better there. When you lose a close game, it could be anything.”

Even the best coaches make mistakes. Ainge believes Mazzulla will grow from his. Though Ainge left Boston in June of 2021, he knows the 34-year-old coach’s abilities well.

The backstory of how the Celtics initially hired Mazzulla to Stevens’ coaching staff is neat. Familiar with Mazzulla after he served as an assistant for the Maine Red Claws during the 2016-17 season, the Celtics offered him a job on Stevens’ staff in 2018. Mazzulla declined to take it because he had already informed incoming recruits at Fairmont State, where he was the head coach at the time, that he wouldn’t be leaving the school prior to the upcoming season. Ainge said the Celtics didn’t make any promises the gig would still be available for Mazzulla the following year but eventually did hire him at that time.

So Ainge had a significant history with Mazzulla even before considering him for the Jazz head coaching position over the offseason. Though Utah eventually picked Hardy instead, Ainge considered Mazzulla a legitimate candidate during the interview process and remains a big believer in Mazzulla as a coach afterward.

“I just always liked Joe’s work ethic, his focus, his intelligence,” Ainge said. “I feel like Joe is one of those guys — one way that I’ve always measured greatness is how much a person can learn from mistakes they make. Joe’s going to learn from his mistakes, just like Will Hardy learns from his mistakes quickly. … The coaches that learn and move on, they become the legendary coaches. And I think both Joe and Will have a chance to be those.”

First player to reach 2️⃣0️⃣0️⃣0️⃣ points this season pic.twitter.com/IYYJdSufmo

— Boston Celtics (@celtics) March 19, 2023

After the Jazz selected Hardy as their head coach, he said he had significant interest in luring Mazzulla away from the Celtics to his staff. The two grew close last season during their lone year together as Boston assistants and left the experience with mutual respect for each other’s coaching acumen. But after the Jazz snagged Hardy, Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck later said in a radio interview on “The Greg Hill Show” that he told them they couldn’t also hire away Mazzulla.

“Yeah, the Celtics, obviously they didn’t want to lose two coaches,” Ainge said. “Obviously they had plans for Joe and big plans for Joe which they should have. And I’m excited that he got this opportunity to coach even though it was under difficult circumstances.”

Ainge said Mazzulla has a great personality. Ainge also believes the young coach will start to show off a spicier side as he gains more experience.

“I think he’s got a good way about him as far as communication, a guy that is a good guy and a guy that’s well-respected,” Ainge said. “And yet I think he’s got the ability and especially as he matures, I think a toughness about him that we’ll probably see emerge more and more in him as he matures as a coach.”

The Celtics haven’t played great basketball lately under Mazzulla, but Ainge has faith.

“I think Joe’s done an outstanding job and I think he’s going to be a great basketball coach,” Ainge said. “The next year he’s going to be a lot better and the year after that he’s going to be a lot better but it seems like he has a really good group of people around him and stafff around him. And he’s got Brad there, he’s got amazing experience. I think the team’s going to be right there in the hunt and have an opportunity to fulfill their dreams when the playoffs start if they can stay healthy.”

Probably mostly Ainge being diplomatic.  But I'd love it if Mazz does end up being "legendary".

[Goldstar88]

In his stint thus far I don't see much upside.  Then again I've been down on Joe for most of the season.  Even when we had the best record I saw too many questionable decisions and poor in-game management, especially in the 4th quarter.  He and the rest of our team don't seem to learn from mistakes.  And he sure as heck isn't getting the most out of the talent on this roster.

But, hopefully someone who knows more about basketball than I do ends up being correct.  An article today from the Athletic featuring none other than Danny Ainge:

SALT LAKE CITY – Danny Ainge hinted there would be days like this.

Hours before the Boston Celtics lost to the Utah Jazz on a busted play in the final seconds of Saturday’s game, Ainge detailed to The Athletic why he believes so strongly in Boston coach Joe Mazzulla. Ainge did not say Mazzulla would be perfect every night. As Ainge pointed out, coaches never are. They make mistakes throughout a game. Iffy substitution patterns. Bad play calls. Misguided defensive strategies. Whatever the case may be.

“As a coach, you never get it right,” Ainge said. “It’s just like as a player. You’re going to make a mistake, multiple mistakes in the same game, mistakes that you think may even cost your team a win here and there.”

Mazzulla might have felt that way Saturday night. On the final, busted play of a 118-117 loss to the Jazz, the Celtics wanted to put the ball into Jayson Tatum’s hands but everything fell apart. Mazzulla called for an inbound play that involved Grant Williams running a dribble handoff for Tatum, but the Jazz defended the action in such a way that Williams broke off the intended set. Instead of passing the ball to Tatum, he drove toward Jazz center Walker Kessler, one of the NBA’s best shot blockers. Williams gave a detailed explanation of his decision-making process. He had plenty of reasons for reacting the way he did. Even if they were all sound, Kessler denied Williams’ shot attempt. The disappointing defeat dropped the Celtics into third place in the Eastern Conference.

Mazzulla’s plan failed. Boston did not produce a clean look at the basket on their final play. Beyond that, Mazzulla decided not to play Derrick White at all in the fourth quarter even with the Celtics missing three of their usual starters, including fellow guard Marcus Smart. White has consistently been one of Boston’s best players this season, but Mazzulla has often left him on the bench during key minutes.

As an All-NBA player, Tatum never sits during crunchtime. He still somehow went scoreless throughout the entire second half against Utah, leaving him with just 15 points, his fourth-lowest total of the season.

“I don’t know if there’s regrets,” Mazzulla said when asked specifically about that. “But I think any time one of your best players doesn’t score (in a half) as a coach, you have to be better. … So I can definitely do better there. When you lose a close game, it could be anything.”

Even the best coaches make mistakes. Ainge believes Mazzulla will grow from his. Though Ainge left Boston in June of 2021, he knows the 34-year-old coach’s abilities well.

The backstory of how the Celtics initially hired Mazzulla to Stevens’ coaching staff is neat. Familiar with Mazzulla after he served as an assistant for the Maine Red Claws during the 2016-17 season, the Celtics offered him a job on Stevens’ staff in 2018. Mazzulla declined to take it because he had already informed incoming recruits at Fairmont State, where he was the head coach at the time, that he wouldn’t be leaving the school prior to the upcoming season. Ainge said the Celtics didn’t make any promises the gig would still be available for Mazzulla the following year but eventually did hire him at that time.

So Ainge had a significant history with Mazzulla even before considering him for the Jazz head coaching position over the offseason. Though Utah eventually picked Hardy instead, Ainge considered Mazzulla a legitimate candidate during the interview process and remains a big believer in Mazzulla as a coach afterward.

“I just always liked Joe’s work ethic, his focus, his intelligence,” Ainge said. “I feel like Joe is one of those guys — one way that I’ve always measured greatness is how much a person can learn from mistakes they make. Joe’s going to learn from his mistakes, just like Will Hardy learns from his mistakes quickly. … The coaches that learn and move on, they become the legendary coaches. And I think both Joe and Will have a chance to be those.”

First player to reach 2️⃣0️⃣0️⃣0️⃣ points this season pic.twitter.com/IYYJdSufmo

— Boston Celtics (@celtics) March 19, 2023

After the Jazz selected Hardy as their head coach, he said he had significant interest in luring Mazzulla away from the Celtics to his staff. The two grew close last season during their lone year together as Boston assistants and left the experience with mutual respect for each other’s coaching acumen. But after the Jazz snagged Hardy, Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck later said in a radio interview on “The Greg Hill Show” that he told them they couldn’t also hire away Mazzulla.

“Yeah, the Celtics, obviously they didn’t want to lose two coaches,” Ainge said. “Obviously they had plans for Joe and big plans for Joe which they should have. And I’m excited that he got this opportunity to coach even though it was under difficult circumstances.”

Ainge said Mazzulla has a great personality. Ainge also believes the young coach will start to show off a spicier side as he gains more experience.

“I think he’s got a good way about him as far as communication, a guy that is a good guy and a guy that’s well-respected,” Ainge said. “And yet I think he’s got the ability and especially as he matures, I think a toughness about him that we’ll probably see emerge more and more in him as he matures as a coach.”

The Celtics haven’t played great basketball lately under Mazzulla, but Ainge has faith.

“I think Joe’s done an outstanding job and I think he’s going to be a great basketball coach,” Ainge said. “The next year he’s going to be a lot better and the year after that he’s going to be a lot better but it seems like he has a really good group of people around him and stafff around him. And he’s got Brad there, he’s got amazing experience. I think the team’s going to be right there in the hunt and have an opportunity to fulfill their dreams when the playoffs start if they can stay healthy.”

Probably mostly Ainge being diplomatic.  But I'd love it if Mazz does end up being "legendary".

Agreed. That’s what it will come down to.

[smokeablount]

It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

This IS the case with every team in the NBA. If it wasn’t, Pop wouldn’t be sitting on 18 wins, the second worst record in the league. Kerr has a .500 record this year, Spolestra Is only a few games over that mark. Out of all the major sports, the coach is the least important in the NBA.

Coaching matters, though.  Otherwise, we’d hire Gene Hackman, Samuel Jackson and Denzel Washington to make the occasional speech and be done with it.

Great coaches can’t overcome mediocre players, but great players can overcome mediocre coaches.

[Kernewek]

It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

This IS the case with every team in the NBA. If it wasn’t, Pop wouldn’t be sitting on 18 wins, the second worst record in the league. Kerr has a .500 record this year, Spolestra Is only a few games over that mark. Out of all the major sports, the coach is the least important in the NBA.

Coaching matters, though.  Otherwise, we’d hire Gene Hackman, Samuel Jackson and Denzel Washington to make the occasional speech and be done with it.

Great coaches can’t overcome mediocre players, but great players can overcome mediocre coaches.

I'm inclined to agree with this, but we're a few years out from the 2019 Sloan Conference, so more of the papers are accessible now, including this one from a couple of UChicago nerds on whether coaching matters. It's pretty interesting stuff at a skim,but the data is contradictory and extrapolated (as you might expect):
https://www.sloansportsconference.com/research-papers/how-much-do-coaches-matter

Other studies have concluded that coaching changes actually result in worse performance for the teams in the NBA (Giambatista, 2004), the NHL (Rowe et al., 2005), English professional soccer (Audas, Dobson, & Goddard, 1997), and college basketball (Fizel and D'Itri (1999).

A handful of studies differentiates within-season versus between-season coaching changes, but generally fails to find effects in either situation. Brown (1982) found that NFL teams perform worse after within-season coaching changes, but that between-season coaching switches had little impact on outcomes. In one of the more comprehensive studies to date, McTeer, White, and Persad (1995) found similarly little effect of within-season coaching changes across four sporting leagues: MLB, NBA, NFL, and NHL.

Tables 4 and 5 show our results for the NBA and for Division 1 college basketball, respectively. In both cases, the estimated effects are substantively quite large. Coaches explain about 30 percent of the variation in points scored and allowed. One initially surprising result is that in college basketball, coaches matter more for points scored and allowed than they do for the point margin.

One potential explanation is that coaches differ from each other in their preferences for fast- versus slow-paced games, with the fast-paced coaches both scoring and allowing more points. To explicitly test this hypothesis, we also test whether coaches matter for the total points scored in the game, and here, we detect a huge effect, confirming this hypothesis about different coaching styles

6. What Can We Say about Individual Coaches?
Our method allows us to estimate the extent to which variation in performance is attributable to coaches as opposed to luck and other factors outside coaches’ control. We think it’s useful to know how much coaches matter and for what outcomes they matter most. Nonetheless, our method does not allow us to say which coaches are particularly effective or ineffective.

Analysts will naturally want to determine which coaches are most effective, and although our method is not suited for answering that question directly, our basic approach to inference can be useful for this question as well. Often, however, careful analysts will find that it’s difficult to confidently assess the quality of an individual coach. In particular, analysts and team stakeholders would like to be able to use a coach’s past performance to predict their future performance, but this is naturally difficult when they have only served a few seasons. Our estimates imply that coaches often explain 20-30 percent of the variation in a team’s success. Substantively, that’s a large effect, and it’s well worth investing in a good coach if you can identify one.

But if a coach has only served a few seasons, a good record doesn’t provide much information about their quality. More likely than not, the other factors that explain the remaining 70-80 percent of the variation were working in that coach’s favor, and we’ll expect regression to the mean in future years.

Full paper here: https://global-uploads.webflow.com/5f1af76ed86d6771ad48324b/5f6d3840173db437f04da5ce_Do-Coaches-Matter.pdf

[Roy H.]

It's just stuff like this, ten games away from the playoffs:

It’s probably a coaching fault of mine yesterday,” said Mazzulla after the game via MassLive’s Brian Robb. “I probably should have had him in at the end of the game. And so when we have the majority of our roster, balancing that out and trying to get the best players on the floor is important.”

“Rewatching it today there were definitely moments when we could have had him on the floor,” he added. “So, when he’s on the floor we’re a really good team, and we need him to be confident and aggressive on both ends.”

How can Joe not spot this during the game?  Why does he need to review film? And where are his assistants?

We don't have time for "coaching faults", especially when he had about exactly the same conversation last week.  I feel Joe is doing the Animal House routine.  "You [messed] up.  You trusted me."

[Csfan1984]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

[Roy H.]

A better Erik Spoelsta is his upside.

I think Spoelstra might be the second best coach in the NBA, certainly in the top-5.

What's your assessment of Joe's potential based upon?