Author Topic: REFS!  (Read 16606 times)

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Re: REFS!
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2023, 06:56:51 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Trae Young just got ejected for simply passing a ball to an official.

ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME??  >:(

And Young is right. He recently said refs need to be held accountable with fines/suspensions. Now I kinda wonder if this was a conspiracy from the refs to eject Young since he made those comments recently too. It's becoming pathetic. Wish something could be done about it in the offseason. But given the Lebron incident against Boston, and all these countless technicals on the most ridiculous stuff (like simply clapping your hands to yourself) I think there'll be real discussions

I hope the players make this an emphasis in the CBA discussions
I hope the owners to do.  be a united front in dealing with the officials union.  Need to be able to remove awful officials

I'm thinking beyond that. They need to support refereeing at the grassroots more, encourage more people to take it up as a career, so that we increase the pool of quality referees, so we can drop these bad ones. I have a suspicion that as bad as these ones are, the ones waiting in the wings are even worse.

But in the meantime, I've been thinking of how to fix this issue of human error/bias. I really think that with technology the way it is now, it's possible that fans watching the game on TV will have access to many more angles and replays of calls that the refs have to do in real time, and so the errors become a lot more magnified. Then you also have players taking a leaf from soccer players' books and embellishing contact, flopping and otherwise trying to fool the referee. Then you have the likes of LeBum, Tatum, Trae etc. trying to influence the referees by constant chatting and complaining.

Maybe it's time to implement 3 rules:

  • any chatting or arguing with the referee will be subject to a technical foul; (this fixes the issue of dissent and influencing on the court)
  • there will be a FOURTH video referee watching the game with access to multiple camera angles. He has the authority to stop play and overrule the on court referees if after reviewing replays he feels a foul has been missed or a call has been made incorrectly; (this fixes the issue of incorrect calls because referee is unsighted/incompetent etc)
  • each team gets two challenges a quarter. If they get it right they get their challenge back (this fixes the issue of bias)

Obviously the downside to my proposal is that the game will probably get a lot slower and stop-start as calls are reviewed and challenges are made. But would that be a worthwhile cost to pay to get calls 100% right? (Or maybe 99%, 100% seems optimistic  :police:)

I think if you want to start a grassroots movement to entice people to get into refereeing you’d need to do some community coaching on parents and high school kids not being complete buttholes to refs. 

It’s a pretty thankless job.  I used to ref a little a little bit, and actually liked it, but good lord pretty take sports/competition way too seriously.

That's really why I feel the people we have are the best available, because most people don't really want to be refs, they would rather be players so they can yell at refs  ;D

But obviously the standard has plenty of room for improvement. Investment needs to be made at the grassroots, from kids refereeing other kids in high school all the way through to college refs and then at the professional level. It's a thankless job, because they are the pinatas for everyone - teams, players, fans. The only time they know they did a good job is when they don't get noticed at all.

Rather than just get rid of the bad ones, which we should, I'd like to think we can try and improve the standard. But I'm not aware of any sport where people are happy with referees, or there's one good referee that was known to be good - other than in soccer, many years ago, there was an Italian referee named Pierluigi Collina, he refereed the 2002 World Cup final and he's now the Chairman of the FIFA Referees' Committee, but during the late 1990s and early 2000s he was so good that when he blew his whistle none of the players ever argued - and we all know how much soccer players love to argue calls. Fans from all teams loved him. I don't think we have a single referee in the NBA who is held in that esteem by players or fans.

And you have it right about parents...when it comes to yelling at refs, parents have it down to a fine art I think  :police:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 07:04:14 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: REFS!
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2023, 09:22:59 AM »

Offline liam

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Re: REFS!
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2023, 09:51:03 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Last night, Blake took a charge from THT and got called for a foul. It was such a bad call that even my wife (who rarely watches games) actually gasped at how obvious the charge was. To Blake's credit, he came up with his patented sarcastic smile on his face.

Re: REFS!
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2023, 10:47:45 AM »

Offline liam

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Last night, Blake took a charge from THT and got called for a foul. It was such a bad call that even my wife (who rarely watches games) actually gasped at how obvious the charge was. To Blake's credit, he came up with his patented sarcastic smile on his face.

The refs last night were terrible, especially in the 4th with the game decided.

Re: REFS!
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2023, 07:40:21 PM »

Offline liam

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Re: REFS!
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2023, 09:42:35 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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When it comes to refs it would be interesting to look at the feeder system.  What is the path for an NBA ref?  (or even a college ref?)

Perhaps some of the factors that go into someone wanting to be a ref, should be a reason to eliminate them.

If you did a deep psychological test on all NBA referees would you find a high incidence of narcissism?  Do they want to be the show?  I know someone who has worked with "TV" Teddy Valentine.  He loves Teddy, but said it's absolutely true that he thinks fans come to the games partly to see him ref.

What if the psychological qualities that would make the best referees (perhaps one of those qualities is someone who doesn't even like basketball) could be pinpointed?

And then you could do a job search for just those types of people, and train them to be a referee.  Would that make a difference?

If you found someone who...

Didn't give a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. what fans think about them
Don't get emotional when being yelled at
Can hyperfocus even in loud/crazy environments
Have great vision
Are super smart and quick with rules
Able to handle coaches/players by diffusing situations


I'm guessing trying to find those people is easier said than done. In any sport, not just basketball. You should probably also add "want to do the job" which I'm sure most people don't. :angel:

They make it seem easy, because a ton of their refs come from one region of New Jersey, almost like geographical nepotism. I forget the name but it may even be like 5-10 NBA refs from one high school. It’s quite shady and is quite on brand for NBA refs.
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Re: REFS!
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2023, 11:19:15 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Where were the Refs game 3 for the Celtics and game 4 for the Lakers? A Heat/Nuggets Final has to be nearly worse case scenario for Silver/the league.
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At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: REFS!
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2023, 11:25:18 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Where were the Refs game 3 for the Celtics and game 4 for the Lakers? A Heat/Nuggets Final has to be nearly worse case scenario for Silver/the league.

You didn’t see them try to foul out Jokic in the fourth last night?  Two charges within 30 seconds, one where LeBron was late, and the next where he flopped?  They did their best — Jokic is too good.

Re: REFS!
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2023, 03:14:02 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Latest on how the quality of officiating continues to deteriorate:

Memphis coach Taylor Jenkins was fined $25k for his tirade against Karl Lane and his crew in Memphis's loss to the Jazz, in which Jaren Jackson Jr was ejected for dissent.

Quote
Memphis Grizzlies coach Taylor Jenkins has been fined $25,000 for public criticism of officiating, the NBA announced Sunday.

"Saddle up," Jenkins said to open his postgame news conference following a 127-121 home loss to the Utah Jazz on Friday that dropped the Grizzlies to 1-8. "One of the most poorly officiated games I've ever seen. Record it. I'm fine with it. F---ing atrocious."

Jenkins was particularly perturbed about Grizzlies power forward Jaren Jackson Jr.'s ejection with 4:30 remaining in the third quarter. Jackson angrily gestured and argued with referee Karl Lane, protesting no-calls on consecutive possessions.

"He's one of the most professional players in this league and gets a double technical foul, and the excuse that I get is that he's charging at an official," Jenkins said. "It's called de-escalation."

"Our team is competing their ass off, and this is what happens?" Jenkins said. "The interactions right now with the officials -- complete disrespect. I know what's coming. It's unbelievable, the looks on the faces when I'm trying to engage in conversation to defend our guys that are busting their tail right now."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38881454/nba-fines-grizzlies-coach-taylor-jenkins-25k-ripping-refs

And tonight, PG13 was upset with the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland in the Clippers' last minute loss to Denver.

Quote
The Clippers star was livid with the referees following the Nuggets' 111-108 win over the Clippers at Ball Arena on Tuesday night.

George felt he should have gone to the line more than the five times that the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland called during the game. George was whistled for a technical foul for arguing with the referees after he felt he was fouled on a breakaway that he missed at the rim late in the second quarter.

"I thought we played great," George said. "It's tough, the adversity of playing against the extra three [officials]. I thought they were awful. But, [against the] defending champs, we got to play better. There's a lot to be positive about. I'm not one for moral victories but I thought we showed more of a sign of a team tonight that's close to getting it over the hump."

"It was bad," George said when asked about how the game finished. "Five free throws is very disrespectful on this night. So many times I got hit on layups, 3-pointers, it was constant.

"Jump shots, getting hit, smacked on the forearm. I mean, it was poor, a poor job. But, again, we got to be able to beat these guys on their floor and not rely on that. Again, they [are] calling something on one end, they got to call it on the other."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38901762/paul-george-calls-officiating-crew-clippers-lose-close-game-nuggets

Sour grapes from losers? Or is it just the frustration with low quality officiating?
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: REFS!
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2023, 03:23:19 AM »

Offline ozgod

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In the English Premier League soccer competition in England, referees are demoted for poor decisions. The latest example was Anthony Taylor, an experienced referee, is the latest of three that have already demoted to the Championship (the next level down from the Premier League) as punishment for the error. The EPL has an independent Key Match Incidents Panel, headed by an experienced former referee, that reviews decisions and holds officials accountable for their performances.

Quote
Anthony Taylor, one of the Premier League's most recognisable referees, has been demoted to the Championship for this weekend's fixtures.

The 45-year-old was at the centre of a refereeing storm last Saturday after giving a penalty to Newcastle in their 2-2 draw against Wolves at Molineux. The Premier League's Independent Key Match Incidents Panel believes it was the incorrect decision.

PGMOL, who are led by 2010 World Cup final referee Howard Webb, have responded by demoting Taylor. He will referee Preston's Championship game against Coventry at Deepdale instead of a Premier League fixture as punishment for the blunder.

Wolves boss Gary O'Neil has urged PGMOL to improve the standard of refereeing in the wake of last Saturday's howler. Taylor is the third referee to be demoted to the Championship this season after making an incorrect decision against Wolves.

"That's Man Utd, Luton and Wolves now. I haven't received an apology and I don't want one. They're not going to help, but hopefully the level improves... I just feel a better level of refereeing is where I'm at with it. Too many mistakes."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-referee-demoted-championship-31358107

Meanwhile, the NBA continues to treat the referees as sacred cows and just rolls them out game after game irrespective of performance.

I think it would be a good idea if the NBA had a similar independent panel that reviewed officials' performances and the consistently bad ones were demoted for errors, and referees promoted from the G-League to replace them while they do their penance and improve their officiating at a lower level first. But I guess the union might take issue with it? Or maybe the errors are all part of "managing the game"?



Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: REFS!
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2023, 05:00:30 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Latest on how the quality of officiating continues to deteriorate:

Memphis coach Taylor Jenkins was fined $25k for his tirade against Karl Lane and his crew in Memphis's loss to the Jazz, in which Jaren Jackson Jr was ejected for dissent.

Quote
Memphis Grizzlies coach Taylor Jenkins has been fined $25,000 for public criticism of officiating, the NBA announced Sunday.

"Saddle up," Jenkins said to open his postgame news conference following a 127-121 home loss to the Utah Jazz on Friday that dropped the Grizzlies to 1-8. "One of the most poorly officiated games I've ever seen. Record it. I'm fine with it. F---ing atrocious."

Jenkins was particularly perturbed about Grizzlies power forward Jaren Jackson Jr.'s ejection with 4:30 remaining in the third quarter. Jackson angrily gestured and argued with referee Karl Lane, protesting no-calls on consecutive possessions.

"He's one of the most professional players in this league and gets a double technical foul, and the excuse that I get is that he's charging at an official," Jenkins said. "It's called de-escalation."

"Our team is competing their ass off, and this is what happens?" Jenkins said. "The interactions right now with the officials -- complete disrespect. I know what's coming. It's unbelievable, the looks on the faces when I'm trying to engage in conversation to defend our guys that are busting their tail right now."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38881454/nba-fines-grizzlies-coach-taylor-jenkins-25k-ripping-refs

And tonight, PG13 was upset with the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland in the Clippers' last minute loss to Denver.

Quote
The Clippers star was livid with the referees following the Nuggets' 111-108 win over the Clippers at Ball Arena on Tuesday night.

George felt he should have gone to the line more than the five times that the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland called during the game. George was whistled for a technical foul for arguing with the referees after he felt he was fouled on a breakaway that he missed at the rim late in the second quarter.

"I thought we played great," George said. "It's tough, the adversity of playing against the extra three [officials]. I thought they were awful. But, [against the] defending champs, we got to play better. There's a lot to be positive about. I'm not one for moral victories but I thought we showed more of a sign of a team tonight that's close to getting it over the hump."

"It was bad," George said when asked about how the game finished. "Five free throws is very disrespectful on this night. So many times I got hit on layups, 3-pointers, it was constant.

"Jump shots, getting hit, smacked on the forearm. I mean, it was poor, a poor job. But, again, we got to be able to beat these guys on their floor and not rely on that. Again, they [are] calling something on one end, they got to call it on the other."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38901762/paul-george-calls-officiating-crew-clippers-lose-close-game-nuggets

Sour grapes from losers? Or is it just the frustration with low quality officiating?
Bit of both. I've made this point before, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an era where the quality of refereeing has never been better across the league, but the improvements are absolutely undone by the improvements in broadcast technology.

And that impacts the refereeing pool, as well - I don't know about you, but I probably don't want to have millions of people with a high-definition look into how poorly I'm doing my job on a day-in, day-out basis. Referees are always going to miss things, objectively, and they're going to earn the subjective ire of at least half the viewership. Sounds pretty grim.
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Re: REFS!
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2023, 09:34:17 PM »

Offline ozgod

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This refereeing crew needs to be demoted after this performance! >:( >:( >:(
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: REFS!
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2023, 01:32:58 AM »

Offline ozgod

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CP3 was ejected by Scott Foster after two quick Ts, leading Paul to call Foster a "b*tch".
Quote

Just before halftime of the Golden State Warriors’ 123-115 loss to the Phoenix Suns at the Footprint Center on Wednesday night, Paul was hit with a pair of quick technical fouls and ejected after arguing with the longtime NBA official.

Warriors coach Steve Kerr was given a technical foul shortly after Paul was ejected, too, which led to five free throws and gave the Suns a 16-point lead at halftime.

Paul first got upset after Foster called a foul on him with just 23 seconds left in the first half, which sent Kevin Durant to the free-throw line. Paul, who has a long history with Foster throughout his career, didn’t hold back when arguing with Foster over the call. So eventually, after Paul wouldn't let it go, Foster hit him with a pair of technical fouls and threw him out of the game.

That's when Paul directed some very pointed and colorful language at Foster, which led to Stephen Curry jumping in to separate the two.



https://x.com/cjzer0/status/1727548856252989811?s=20

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/warriors-star-chris-paul-ejected-after-latest-incident-with-referee-scott-foster-in-return-to-phoenix-050306940.html

Frustration from the players with the officials is certainly very high to start the season.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: REFS!
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2023, 12:26:40 PM »

Online Yuckabuck33

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Latest on how the quality of officiating continues to deteriorate:

Memphis coach Taylor Jenkins was fined $25k for his tirade against Karl Lane and his crew in Memphis's loss to the Jazz, in which Jaren Jackson Jr was ejected for dissent.

Quote
Memphis Grizzlies coach Taylor Jenkins has been fined $25,000 for public criticism of officiating, the NBA announced Sunday.

"Saddle up," Jenkins said to open his postgame news conference following a 127-121 home loss to the Utah Jazz on Friday that dropped the Grizzlies to 1-8. "One of the most poorly officiated games I've ever seen. Record it. I'm fine with it. F---ing atrocious."

Jenkins was particularly perturbed about Grizzlies power forward Jaren Jackson Jr.'s ejection with 4:30 remaining in the third quarter. Jackson angrily gestured and argued with referee Karl Lane, protesting no-calls on consecutive possessions.

"He's one of the most professional players in this league and gets a double technical foul, and the excuse that I get is that he's charging at an official," Jenkins said. "It's called de-escalation."

"Our team is competing their ass off, and this is what happens?" Jenkins said. "The interactions right now with the officials -- complete disrespect. I know what's coming. It's unbelievable, the looks on the faces when I'm trying to engage in conversation to defend our guys that are busting their tail right now."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38881454/nba-fines-grizzlies-coach-taylor-jenkins-25k-ripping-refs

And tonight, PG13 was upset with the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland in the Clippers' last minute loss to Denver.

Quote
The Clippers star was livid with the referees following the Nuggets' 111-108 win over the Clippers at Ball Arena on Tuesday night.

George felt he should have gone to the line more than the five times that the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland called during the game. George was whistled for a technical foul for arguing with the referees after he felt he was fouled on a breakaway that he missed at the rim late in the second quarter.

"I thought we played great," George said. "It's tough, the adversity of playing against the extra three [officials]. I thought they were awful. But, [against the] defending champs, we got to play better. There's a lot to be positive about. I'm not one for moral victories but I thought we showed more of a sign of a team tonight that's close to getting it over the hump."

"It was bad," George said when asked about how the game finished. "Five free throws is very disrespectful on this night. So many times I got hit on layups, 3-pointers, it was constant.

"Jump shots, getting hit, smacked on the forearm. I mean, it was poor, a poor job. But, again, we got to be able to beat these guys on their floor and not rely on that. Again, they [are] calling something on one end, they got to call it on the other."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38901762/paul-george-calls-officiating-crew-clippers-lose-close-game-nuggets

Sour grapes from losers? Or is it just the frustration with low quality officiating?
Bit of both. I've made this point before, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an era where the quality of refereeing has never been better across the league, but the improvements are absolutely undone by the improvements in broadcast technology.

And that impacts the refereeing pool, as well - I don't know about you, but I probably don't want to have millions of people with a high-definition look into how poorly I'm doing my job on a day-in, day-out basis. Referees are always going to miss things, objectively, and they're going to earn the subjective ire of at least half the viewership. Sounds pretty grim.
   I agree with general refereeing ability increasing. The problem is not so much competency but corruption.(Though I have seen a small but shocking number of times where the referee seems ignorant of the actual rules.)
   The agendas, double standards in order to keep the games close, double standards for superstars because they make a lot of money and can't be bothered to learn how to play without fouling, etc. These are problems that can be fixed but the league doesn't want them fixed. I can't wait for the next Donaghy to be exposed.
   I would never bet on something with such rigging from the refs. (Though Donaghy was successful precisely by betting on the ref's rigging- which is proof that the rigging is real!)

Re: REFS!
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2023, 12:54:00 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Latest on how the quality of officiating continues to deteriorate:

Memphis coach Taylor Jenkins was fined $25k for his tirade against Karl Lane and his crew in Memphis's loss to the Jazz, in which Jaren Jackson Jr was ejected for dissent.

Quote
Memphis Grizzlies coach Taylor Jenkins has been fined $25,000 for public criticism of officiating, the NBA announced Sunday.

"Saddle up," Jenkins said to open his postgame news conference following a 127-121 home loss to the Utah Jazz on Friday that dropped the Grizzlies to 1-8. "One of the most poorly officiated games I've ever seen. Record it. I'm fine with it. F---ing atrocious."

Jenkins was particularly perturbed about Grizzlies power forward Jaren Jackson Jr.'s ejection with 4:30 remaining in the third quarter. Jackson angrily gestured and argued with referee Karl Lane, protesting no-calls on consecutive possessions.

"He's one of the most professional players in this league and gets a double technical foul, and the excuse that I get is that he's charging at an official," Jenkins said. "It's called de-escalation."

"Our team is competing their ass off, and this is what happens?" Jenkins said. "The interactions right now with the officials -- complete disrespect. I know what's coming. It's unbelievable, the looks on the faces when I'm trying to engage in conversation to defend our guys that are busting their tail right now."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38881454/nba-fines-grizzlies-coach-taylor-jenkins-25k-ripping-refs

And tonight, PG13 was upset with the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland in the Clippers' last minute loss to Denver.

Quote
The Clippers star was livid with the referees following the Nuggets' 111-108 win over the Clippers at Ball Arena on Tuesday night.

George felt he should have gone to the line more than the five times that the crew of Josh Tiven, Natalie Sago and Matt Boland called during the game. George was whistled for a technical foul for arguing with the referees after he felt he was fouled on a breakaway that he missed at the rim late in the second quarter.

"I thought we played great," George said. "It's tough, the adversity of playing against the extra three [officials]. I thought they were awful. But, [against the] defending champs, we got to play better. There's a lot to be positive about. I'm not one for moral victories but I thought we showed more of a sign of a team tonight that's close to getting it over the hump."

"It was bad," George said when asked about how the game finished. "Five free throws is very disrespectful on this night. So many times I got hit on layups, 3-pointers, it was constant.

"Jump shots, getting hit, smacked on the forearm. I mean, it was poor, a poor job. But, again, we got to be able to beat these guys on their floor and not rely on that. Again, they [are] calling something on one end, they got to call it on the other."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38901762/paul-george-calls-officiating-crew-clippers-lose-close-game-nuggets

Sour grapes from losers? Or is it just the frustration with low quality officiating?
Bit of both. I've made this point before, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an era where the quality of refereeing has never been better across the league, but the improvements are absolutely undone by the improvements in broadcast technology.

And that impacts the refereeing pool, as well - I don't know about you, but I probably don't want to have millions of people with a high-definition look into how poorly I'm doing my job on a day-in, day-out basis. Referees are always going to miss things, objectively, and they're going to earn the subjective ire of at least half the viewership. Sounds pretty grim.
   I agree with general refereeing ability increasing. The problem is not so much competency but corruption.(Though I have seen a small but shocking number of times where the referee seems ignorant of the actual rules.)
   The agendas, double standards in order to keep the games close, double standards for superstars because they make a lot of money and can't be bothered to learn how to play without fouling, etc. These are problems that can be fixed but the league doesn't want them fixed. I can't wait for the next Donaghy to be exposed.
   I would never bet on something with such rigging from the refs. (Though Donaghy was successful precisely by betting on the ref's rigging- which is proof that the rigging is real!)

I hear you, and of course, that's always a possibility, but I do think it's fairly unlikely.

Firstly: If anyone can determine illegitimate activity beyond the '****ography test' (i.e. "I know the refs are gaming the odds because I know it') the various regulatory bodies would be on it like flies on excrement, as the saying goes. There's more money & more integration with gambling bodies - which brings much more scrutiny.

Donaghy got caught, yes, but he was also under investigation by the FBI prior to getting caught. And it's not as if there's less scrutiny on the league today, or that deliberate patterns are more difficult to uncover - if anything, the computing power increases alone make that silly.

Don't get me wrong: Scott Foster sucks. Joey Crawford sucked. I don't think they're bad referees, or crooked, just because of that.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.