Author Topic: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?  (Read 911 times)

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Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« on: February 26, 2023, 12:17:54 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I saw this tweet tonight:

Quote
Joel Embiid is the best player EVER who's never won MVP or made 1st Team All-NBA.

Agree or disagree?


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Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2023, 12:56:19 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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I saw this tweet tonight:

Quote
Joel Embiid is the best player EVER who's never won MVP or made 1st Team All-NBA.

Agree or disagree?

Could be. Hal Greer might be his biggest competition. 


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Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2023, 01:29:11 AM »

Online Ed Monix

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Dave Cowens

2 x NBA Champion

1 x NBA MVP

8 × NBA All-Star

1 x NBA All-Star Game MVP

0 x All-NBA First Team

3 × All-NBA Second Team

1 x NBA All-Defensive First Team

2 × NBA All-Defensive Second Team
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 01:40:44 AM by Ed Monix »
5' 10" former point guard

Career highlight: 1973-74 championship, Boston Celtics

Career lowlight: traded for a washing machine

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2023, 04:25:23 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Dave Cowens

2 x NBA Champion

1 x NBA MVP

8 × NBA All-Star

1 x NBA All-Star Game MVP

0 x All-NBA First Team

3 × All-NBA Second Team

1 x NBA All-Defensive First Team

2 × NBA All-Defensive Second Team
Read the OP again.  Cowens did win MVP. 

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2023, 06:02:08 AM »

Offline Who

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Maybe.

Is Embiid better than Bob Lanier? Or Yao Ming?

I find Embiid hard to rank historically. His lack of post-season success hurts him. This is the age of the stat-padders so it is hard to compare his numbers to other guys from different generations. His defensive impact would have been greater in other areas but is lowered by this three point heavy era.

Embiid has choked at times in the playoffs. Ran out of gas the first two years. Failed to dominate old man Marc Gasol as he should have. Failed to dominate against Al Horford in multiple series. Allowed Trae Young's Hawks to beat him. A ball-stopper who gets his but fails to create good platform for his teammates to perform.

I'm not sure.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2023, 08:26:16 AM »

Offline Moranis

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There are a lot of guys that this holds true for, I mean 2/3 of the Celtics big 3 never made the 1st team i.e. PP and Ray.  While I think Reggie Miller is overrated in part because he never even made the 2nd Team, he may be better than Embiid at this point.  A guy like Chris Bosh only had 1 2nd Team (i assume all rookie doesn't count).   

Maybe Embiid is better than all the guys like that, but I'm not so sure.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2023, 08:39:15 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Wow how does somebody win MVP but not make first team?
#JKJB

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2023, 09:00:29 AM »

Offline Who

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Wow how does somebody win MVP but not make first team?

Think it happened with Russell and Chamberlain as well in the 60s. Was it Marc Gasol who won DPOY but failed to make first team all defense? Similar thing.

Edit: Yeah, it was Marc Gasol in 2013.

Russell won MVP in 1958 but was 2nd team to Dolph Schayes. He won it again in 1961 but was 2nd team to Wilt Chamberlain. Again in 1962 winning and 2nd team to Wilt.

Wow, 3 times. No idea that happened 3 times. I knew it happened once with Wilt. Never knew about Dolph Schayes in 58.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2023, 09:11:13 AM »

Offline Who

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Russell's MVP votes are pretty cool.

He played only 48 games his rookie year so only finished 7th but then finished either 1st or 2nd with Wilt for the next 6 years. Then 3rd behind Oscar and Wilt. Then 1st again. Then 4th twice and 3rd once in 3 of his final 4 years. Behind Wilt, West, Oscar. Then Wilt, Nate. Then Unseld, Reed and Billy Cunningham in 69.

Strange that Russell didn't make it in 1968 but did in 67 and 69. Wilt won that year. Lenny Wilkens was #2, E Baylor, Dave Bing and Oscar in 5th. Strange selections with Lenny and Bing. I suppose Lenny had become the pre-eminent little man in the league post-Cousy (20ppg 8apg).

It is a pretty amazing accomplishment. 1st 5 times, 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice. One time 7th probably due to missed games. And one time blanked.

11 of his 13 years in the top 5 for MVP. Just like thoes rings.

5 MVPs for Russell.
4 MVPs for Wilt.

1 MVP for Oscar. 1 MVP for Unseld. Cousy got it Russell's rookie year before Wilt was in the league. Pettit got in 59 before Wilt.

Wilt started in 60. So Russell and Wilt got 8 of the next 9 MVPs with only Oscar breaking their streak. Then Unseld in Russell's last year in 69.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2023, 09:40:40 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Wow how does somebody win MVP but not make first team?

Think it happened with Russell and Chamberlain as well in the 60s. Was it Marc Gasol who won DPOY but failed to make first team all defense? Similar thing.

Edit: Yeah, it was Marc Gasol in 2013.

Russell won MVP in 1958 but was 2nd team to Dolph Schayes. He won it again in 1961 but was 2nd team to Wilt Chamberlain. Again in 1962 winning and 2nd team to Wilt.

Wow, 3 times. No idea that happened 3 times. I knew it happened once with Wilt. Never knew about Dolph Schayes in 58.
That was a function of different voters, the players voted for MVP while the media did the 1st team.  It is why Russell kept winning MVP's but wasn't the 1st Team center. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2023, 09:56:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Russell's MVP votes are pretty cool.

He played only 48 games his rookie year so only finished 7th but then finished either 1st or 2nd with Wilt for the next 6 years. Then 3rd behind Oscar and Wilt. Then 1st again. Then 4th twice and 3rd once in 3 of his final 4 years. Behind Wilt, West, Oscar. Then Wilt, Nate. Then Unseld, Reed and Billy Cunningham in 69.

Strange that Russell didn't make it in 1968 but did in 67 and 69. Wilt won that year. Lenny Wilkens was #2, E Baylor, Dave Bing and Oscar in 5th. Strange selections with Lenny and Bing. I suppose Lenny had become the pre-eminent little man in the league post-Cousy (20ppg 8apg).

It is a pretty amazing accomplishment. 1st 5 times, 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice. One time 7th probably due to missed games. And one time blanked.

11 of his 13 years in the top 5 for MVP. Just like thoes rings.

5 MVPs for Russell.
4 MVPs for Wilt.

1 MVP for Oscar. 1 MVP for Unseld. Cousy got it Russell's rookie year before Wilt was in the league. Pettit got in 59 before Wilt.

Wilt started in 60. So Russell and Wilt got 8 of the next 9 MVPs with only Oscar breaking their streak. Then Unseld in Russell's last year in 69.
Kareem's 1st 12 years he finished in the top 5 every single year.  6 wins, 1 2nd, 2 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th.  He then finished 10th 2 straight years, before getting 2 more 4ths and 1 more 5th in 86.  So 15 top 5 finishes for Kareem and 2 more top 10 finishes.  Amazing.

Jordan wasn't top 5 his first 2 years (6th and then injured), but ran off 10 straight full seasons of top 3 finishes (his partial year in 95 he finished 11th) getting 5 wins, 3 2nd's, and 2 3rd's. 

Lebron was 9th as a rookie and 6th in his 2nd year, but then ran off 13 straight top 5 finishes (4 wins), then 11th, then 2nd again, and he has been 13th and 10th the last 2 years. 

Bird's 1st 9 years, all top 4 (and 4 was a rookie and just 1 other top was 3, so 3 1st's and 4 2nds). Magic also had 9 straight years of top 3 finishes (once he took the mantle from Kareem).  Those 2 guys just dominated the 80's as we knew. 

The NBA has had a lot of those amazing player runs.  The torch just keeps getting passed from all time great to all time great (sometimes 2).  So you just had the 60's with Wilt/Bill, 70's with Kareem, 80's with Bird/Magic, 90's with Jordan, early 00's with Duncan (perhaps you can add Shaq, but he was never a MVP darling in part because he missed a lot of regular season games), then late 00's and 10's to Lebron.  Be interesting to see if Giannis or Jokic does enough to get into that territory or if it is someone like Luka that realy takes it over. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2023, 10:19:40 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Sortable list of All-NBA selections.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league_by_player.html

I’m surprised that Kyrie never made a first team. 


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Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2023, 10:58:11 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Russell's MVP votes are pretty cool.

He played only 48 games his rookie year so only finished 7th but then finished either 1st or 2nd with Wilt for the next 6 years. Then 3rd behind Oscar and Wilt. Then 1st again. Then 4th twice and 3rd once in 3 of his final 4 years. Behind Wilt, West, Oscar. Then Wilt, Nate. Then Unseld, Reed and Billy Cunningham in 69.

Strange that Russell didn't make it in 1968 but did in 67 and 69. Wilt won that year. Lenny Wilkens was #2, E Baylor, Dave Bing and Oscar in 5th. Strange selections with Lenny and Bing. I suppose Lenny had become the pre-eminent little man in the league post-Cousy (20ppg 8apg).

It is a pretty amazing accomplishment. 1st 5 times, 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice. One time 7th probably due to missed games. And one time blanked.

11 of his 13 years in the top 5 for MVP. Just like thoes rings.

5 MVPs for Russell.
4 MVPs for Wilt.

1 MVP for Oscar. 1 MVP for Unseld. Cousy got it Russell's rookie year before Wilt was in the league. Pettit got in 59 before Wilt.

Wilt started in 60. So Russell and Wilt got 8 of the next 9 MVPs with only Oscar breaking their streak. Then Unseld in Russell's last year in 69.
It is easier to win championships and awards when the league consists of only 8 to 10 teams for most of your career. 

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2023, 11:05:09 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Sortable list of All-NBA selections.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league_by_player.html

I’m surprised that Kyrie never made a first team.
Carmelo is the bigger surprise for me and just 2 2nd Teams with 4 3rd teams. 

Luka is 3 for 3 on the 1st Team.  No 2nd or 3rd Teams.  I wonder how long he can keep that streak going.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Best player never to make All-NBA first team?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2023, 04:25:03 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Yeah, Embiid is definitely the answer here but these questions are always wonky when we're talking about a player who isn't even 30 yet. My guess is he'll make a 1st team or win an MVP within the next few seasons.

Hell, maybe the "3 time" thing will actually wind up hurting Jokic enough that Embiid wins MVP this season.
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