MVP Race

[celticsclay]

Giannis should be the front runner.  Spent most of the year with his 2nd best player either not playing or not looking anything like himself and the Bucks have the 2nd best record in the sport (ahead of the Nuggets).

Giannis' on court - off court is +7.7.  Jokic's is an insane +24.3.

Aren't you a giant fan of this stat?

I am, but my issue with Jokic is his playoff on/off has been negative the last 3 seasons (and he was way negative last year) while his regular season one has been great.  I believe he is a liability defensively against the best teams and can be exploited.  I don't think he rises up when it matters.  You want to be a 3-time MVP, you need to prove it in the playoffs. BTW, Gordon and KCP are also around +20 this year, and last year Gordon was the only starter that was positive in the playoffs at +4.6 and of those starters only Morris was worse than Jokic in that Warriors series. 

Even with the playoff failures, I'd have Jokic 3rd behind Giannis and Tatum.  I just don't think he is the most valuable player this year.

MVP is literally a regular season award.  Why should his play in the playoffs have anything to do with it?

because it does

This is an asinine comment.  The votes literally occur the week between the regular season and the playoffs, and there are separate awards for the playoffs.  It is, by definition and structure, a regular-season award.

Yeah, I mean do we have to put Donic higher because made WCF last year? Really head scratching stuff.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

[RodyTur10]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

[celticsclay]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

Yeah I really don’t get the need people have to want to try and take jokic down a peg. There was a good article on deadspin about him not having any all star teammates, or really anyone that was even under serious consideration. Meanwhile Boston, Bucks, clippers, 76ers etc all have at least two all stars or one that had serious consideration/made it last year. Even Dallas has two now.

[Phantom255x]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

[celticsclay]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

Some argue last seasons playoffs should be taken into account. Not sure how common a viewpoint that is. 

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

I never said that Jokic (or Lillard, or anyone else) is a garbage player. It just amuses me that there's so much praise for Jokic during the regular season, and he's on the verge of becoming only the fourth player ever to win three straight MVPs, but he doesn't have the postseason success to match. Perhaps my cynicism in this is the product of living in an age of media saturation in which I hear over and over and over about how great certain players are, and when those players don't win The Big One, my natural reaction is, "Well, I guess they aren't that great, are they?"

Then again, I'm not a big fan of MVP discussions in general. The MVP award is sort of a glorified popularity contest, which doesn't appeal to me, and it doesn't have any real rules or even guidelines, so we can't even have everyone approach the discussion in the same way. Similar to the conversation around the various Halls of Fame.

[tonydelk]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

Some argue last seasons playoffs should be taken into account. Not sure how common a viewpoint that is.

It's Jokic's to lose if you are talking about Offensive only stats.  I wish more voters took into account the Defensive side of the ball.  It's a two way sport and not just about scoring baskets. 

[Moranis]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

I'd absolutely take Denver's supporting cast over Milwaukee's this year.  Not even close, especially with Middleton missing so many games and generally not playing well when available.  4 of the top 6 players this year on those 2 teams are on the Nuggets (Giannis & Jrue from Bucks, Jokic, Gordon, Murray, & Porter from Nuggets).  And given how well KCP has shot the ball, you could argue he is 7th (I'd probably have him 9th behind Lopez and Middleton and just ahead of Portis, I'm just saying you could make an argument he is 7th).  The Nuggets are a very deep and well balanced team.  Gordon is widely regarded as the biggest front court all star snub from the West and Murray is averaging 20/4/6 with solid efficiency (so easily could have been an all star).  Even Porter has increased his efficiency a lot this year and has managed over 40 games.  The rest of the rotation has nice solid players that know and play their roles well i.e. KCP, Brown, Green, Cancar, Braun, and Hyland (before the trade).  They've replace Hyland with Bryant (obviously not positionally but in playing time). 

The reason Jokic is more efficient this year is Murray and Porter are playing.  They've opened up the floor for him and created much better targets for his passes and less attention on him when he shoots.  Jokic is obviously their best and most important player, but the difference in the team from last year is Murray and Porter are back and playing.  They just have a different level of talent with those 2 guys out there and compare quite favorably with every other team in the league.  Really only Boston and Phoenix can make a similar talent argument from the top 7 or 8 players (the Suns are very shallow as a result of the trades, the C's are solid 1-10). 

[Moranis]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

I never said that Jokic (or Lillard, or anyone else) is a garbage player. It just amuses me that there's so much praise for Jokic during the regular season, and he's on the verge of becoming only the fourth player ever to win three straight MVPs, but he doesn't have the postseason success to match. Perhaps my cynicism in this is the product of living in an age of media saturation in which I hear over and over and over about how great certain players are, and when those players don't win The Big One, my natural reaction is, "Well, I guess they aren't that great, are they?"

Then again, I'm not a big fan of MVP discussions in general. The MVP award is sort of a glorified popularity contest, which doesn't appeal to me, and it doesn't have any real rules or even guidelines, so we can't even have everyone approach the discussion in the same way. Similar to the conversation around the various Halls of Fame.

On top of that, for as good as his on/off differential has been in the regular season, it has been NEGATIVE in the playoffs the last 3 years.  Denver has actually better when he is on the bench in the playoffs.  Even during the WCF run in 2020, Jokic's on/off differential was -3.0 in the playoffs.  Murray was +10.2 and Porter was +14.6 during that run.  In 21, when they went to WCS without Murray, Jokic's differential in the playoffs was -8.2, only Austin Rivers was worse on the team.  Last year in the first round loss in 5, Jokic -12.4, but Gordon was +4.6.  Jokic has been truly amazing in the regular season, but has come up very small in the playoffs.  That is why I wouldn't give him the award when there are other deserving candidates.  He absolutely needs to prove it in the playoffs.  Just as Giannis did.  I mean Jordan and Lebron didn't even win 3 in a row and they were considered the best player in the sport for like a decade and found far greater regular season and post season success than Jokic. 

Right now, I think he is clearly behind Giannis and Tatum.  I'd probably have Jokic 3rd, but I'd also consider Embiid in that spot.  I think those 4 are pretty firmly ahead of Doncic, Morant, Mitchell, and everyone else. 

[Celtics2021]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

I'd absolutely take Denver's supporting cast over Milwaukee's this year.  Not even close, especially with Middleton missing so many games and generally not playing well when available.  4 of the top 6 players this year on those 2 teams are on the Nuggets (Giannis & Jrue from Bucks, Jokic, Gordon, Murray, & Porter from Nuggets).  And given how well KCP has shot the ball, you could argue he is 7th (I'd probably have him 9th behind Lopez and Middleton and just ahead of Portis, I'm just saying you could make an argument he is 7th).  The Nuggets are a very deep and well balanced team.  Gordon is widely regarded as the biggest front court all star snub from the West and Murray is averaging 20/4/6 with solid efficiency (so easily could have been an all star).  Even Porter has increased his efficiency a lot this year and has managed over 40 games.  The rest of the rotation has nice solid players that know and play their roles well i.e. KCP, Brown, Green, Cancar, Braun, and Hyland (before the trade).  They've replace Hyland with Bryant (obviously not positionally but in playing time). 

The reason Jokic is more efficient this year is Murray and Porter are playing.  They've opened up the floor for him and created much better targets for his passes and less attention on him when he shoots.  Jokic is obviously their best and most important player, but the difference in the team from last year is Murray and Porter are back and playing.  They just have a different level of talent with those 2 guys out there and compare quite favorably with every other team in the league.  Really only Boston and Phoenix can make a similar talent argument from the top 7 or 8 players (the Suns are very shallow as a result of the trades, the C's are solid 1-10).

The Bucks are 6-5 without Giannis, plus a win last night where he only played 9 minutes.  The Nuggets are 3-5 without Jokic.  Unless I'm mistaken, that stat should be all that's needed to end the debate as to which player is more important to their team.

[tazzmaniac]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

Yeah I really don’t get the need people have to want to try and take jokic down a peg. There was a good article on deadspin about him not having any all star teammates, or really anyone that was even under serious consideration. Meanwhile Boston, Bucks, clippers, 76ers etc all have at least two all stars or one that had serious consideration/made it last year. Even Dallas has two now.

The Nuggets have good players.  You could swap out plenty of players for Jokic and the Nuggets would still be good in the regular season and a few might even make them better in the playoffs. 
Giannis, Embiid and Tatum are all much better defenders than Jokic but that doesn't seem to carry any weight in regards to MVP voting.  I may be misremembering but didn't Jokic get "benched" in a playoff game? 

In 2017/18, Embiid in his first full season of play led a Sixers team to a 52-win season where the rest of their starters were Simmons (1st season), Saric (2nd season), Covington and Redick.  They even made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.  The Grizzlies won 56 games last season.  Morant was their only star and they arguably played a bit better without Morant on the court.  Atlanta with Millsap, Horford and Teague in 2015-16 won 60 games.  If I paid more attention to the NBA, I expect I'd be able to spout of lots of other examples of the top of my head.  You don't need multiple all-stars to win 50+ games in the NBA.  You don't even need a single all-star. 

If folks want to say Jokic should still be leading MVP voting that's fine but he shouldn't be dominating the voting. 

[celticsclay]

It's really Jokic's to lose at this point. Awesome numbers, his team is the 1 seed in the West with a fantastic record of 41-18, and his supporting cast is not as good as others like Giannis.

People will argue for Doncic, but the Mavs are the 7 seed in the West. It's a close race, but DAL record-wise is also only around .500. Probably unfair to Doncic, but idk how a league MVP can come from a .500 team when there are other legit options out there (Giannis, Tatum, etc.)

I'd absolutely take Denver's supporting cast over Milwaukee's this year.  Not even close, especially with Middleton missing so many games and generally not playing well when available.  4 of the top 6 players this year on those 2 teams are on the Nuggets (Giannis & Jrue from Bucks, Jokic, Gordon, Murray, & Porter from Nuggets).  And given how well KCP has shot the ball, you could argue he is 7th (I'd probably have him 9th behind Lopez and Middleton and just ahead of Portis, I'm just saying you could make an argument he is 7th).  The Nuggets are a very deep and well balanced team.  Gordon is widely regarded as the biggest front court all star snub from the West and Murray is averaging 20/4/6 with solid efficiency (so easily could have been an all star).  Even Porter has increased his efficiency a lot this year and has managed over 40 games.  The rest of the rotation has nice solid players that know and play their roles well i.e. KCP, Brown, Green, Cancar, Braun, and Hyland (before the trade).  They've replace Hyland with Bryant (obviously not positionally but in playing time). 

The reason Jokic is more efficient this year is Murray and Porter are playing.  They've opened up the floor for him and created much better targets for his passes and less attention on him when he shoots.  Jokic is obviously their best and most important player, but the difference in the team from last year is Murray and Porter are back and playing.  They just have a different level of talent with those 2 guys out there and compare quite favorably with every other team in the league.  Really only Boston and Phoenix can make a similar talent argument from the top 7 or 8 players (the Suns are very shallow as a result of the trades, the C's are solid 1-10).

The Bucks are 6-5 without Giannis, plus a win last night where he only played 9 minutes.  The Nuggets are 3-5 without Jokic.  Unless I'm mistaken, that stat should be all that's needed to end the debate as to which player is more important to their team.

Several Tommy points here for ya.

[celticsclay]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

Yeah I really don’t get the need people have to want to try and take jokic down a peg. There was a good article on deadspin about him not having any all star teammates, or really anyone that was even under serious consideration. Meanwhile Boston, Bucks, clippers, 76ers etc all have at least two all stars or one that had serious consideration/made it last year. Even Dallas has two now.

The Nuggets have good players.  You could swap out plenty of players for Jokic and the Nuggets would still be good in the regular season and a few might even make them better in the playoffs. 
Giannis, Embiid and Tatum are all much better defenders than Jokic but that doesn't seem to carry any weight in regards to MVP voting.  I may be misremembering but didn't Jokic get "benched" in a playoff game? 

In 2017/18, Embiid in his first full season of play led a Sixers team to a 52-win season where the rest of their starters were Simmons (1st season), Saric (2nd season), Covington and Redick.  They even made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.  The Grizzlies won 56 games last season.  Morant was their only star and they arguably played a bit better without Morant on the court.  Atlanta with Millsap, Horford and Teague in 2015-16 won 60 games.  If I paid more attention to the NBA, I expect I'd be able to spout of lots of other examples of the top of my head.  You don't need multiple all-stars to win 50+ games in the NBA.  You don't even need a single all-star. 

If folks want to say Jokic should still be leading MVP voting that's fine but he shouldn't be dominating the voting.

Few notes from the article:
In fact, among the top seeds in the East and West, Denver is the only top-3 seed from either conference without a pair of 2023 All-Stars inside its locker room. Boston’s offense is carried by Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum on its wings.

If Denver finishes the 82-game schedule as the No. 1 seed, they’d be the first one in the Western Conference without multiple All-Stars since the 2014 San Antonio Spurs won their final title of the Duncan era

Objectively this is very unusual. I get you are an Embid guy, and I like Embid too (think it was closer last year or the year before). But these are facts. Rare to see a top seed with one all star, let alone nobody else on the team that has made one (excluding deandre Jordan’s corpse)

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think it will be awesome when Jokic wins his third straight MVP and then the Nuggets fail to reach the NBA Finals yet again.

Without Jokic the Nuggets would never have even made the playoffs. I find this silly remarks.

Is Lillard a garbage player because in his whole career he only won four playoff series?

I never said that Jokic (or Lillard, or anyone else) is a garbage player. It just amuses me that there's so much praise for Jokic during the regular season, and he's on the verge of becoming only the fourth player ever to win three straight MVPs, but he doesn't have the postseason success to match. Perhaps my cynicism in this is the product of living in an age of media saturation in which I hear over and over and over about how great certain players are, and when those players don't win The Big One, my natural reaction is, "Well, I guess they aren't that great, are they?"

Then again, I'm not a big fan of MVP discussions in general. The MVP award is sort of a glorified popularity contest, which doesn't appeal to me, and it doesn't have any real rules or even guidelines, so we can't even have everyone approach the discussion in the same way. Similar to the conversation around the various Halls of Fame.

On top of that, for as good as his on/off differential has been in the regular season, it has been NEGATIVE in the playoffs the last 3 years.  Denver has actually better when he is on the bench in the playoffs.  Even during the WCF run in 2020, Jokic's on/off differential was -3.0 in the playoffs.  Murray was +10.2 and Porter was +14.6 during that run.  In 21, when they went to WCS without Murray, Jokic's differential in the playoffs was -8.2, only Austin Rivers was worse on the team.  Last year in the first round loss in 5, Jokic -12.4, but Gordon was +4.6.  Jokic has been truly amazing in the regular season, but has come up very small in the playoffs.  That is why I wouldn't give him the award when there are other deserving candidates.  He absolutely needs to prove it in the playoffs.  Just as Giannis did.  I mean Jordan and Lebron didn't even win 3 in a row and they were considered the best player in the sport for like a decade and found far greater regular season and post season success than Jokic. 

Right now, I think he is clearly behind Giannis and Tatum.  I'd probably have Jokic 3rd, but I'd also consider Embiid in that spot.  I think those 4 are pretty firmly ahead of Doncic, Morant, Mitchell, and everyone else.

MVP is a regular-season award, so I think it should be treated as such, but the lack of playoff performance you point out is part of the reason I sort of get a chuckle out of the Jokic MVP talk, because I'm confident the Nuggets will once again fail to even reach the NBA Finals.