Author Topic: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor  (Read 4166 times)

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Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2023, 12:16:08 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

Poeltl is better than Grant Williams, yes.  Heís better in every way other than outside shooting.

Not being a jerk here, but have you watched Poeltl play?  Questioning whether Gallinari might be a better player, and ranking him behind or equivalent to Grant seems off to me.  If the argument is based upon fit, I guess I get it, but not in terms of pure "who is better".

No offense taken, and in truth, I have not watched Poeltl a ton.  But when I have, what I see is a plodding big who can't shoot FTs but who does have size, skill, and good BBIQ.  More than that though, when you bring in a player mid-season, it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022).  I think Poeltl would have a tough time adjusting to our defensive scheme in particular, due to his limited mobility/quickness.

As to Gallinari, he is a wild card due to the injury, but assuming he comes back and is more or less the player he was on ATL the last few years, he might give us more than Poeltl, especially if you consider that he would be playing alongside Horford or RWIII a lot of the time.  Having Grant and Gallinari as our PFs with RWIII and Horford as our Cs might be better than Grant and Horford as PFs and RWIII and Poeltl as our Cs.  I think either rotation is pretty good.

I am not going to pretend to know for sure but as I look at Grant, Gallinari, and Poeltl, I see them all as more or less of equal value.  All decent but flawed players.  All better suited as bench players on a title level team, not quite starters.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2023, 12:49:00 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

Poeltl is better than Grant Williams, yes.  Heís better in every way other than outside shooting.

Not being a jerk here, but have you watched Poeltl play?  Questioning whether Gallinari might be a better player, and ranking him behind or equivalent to Grant seems off to me.  If the argument is based upon fit, I guess I get it, but not in terms of pure "who is better".

No offense taken, and in truth, I have not watched Poeltl a ton.  But when I have, what I see is a plodding big who can't shoot FTs but who does have size, skill, and good BBIQ.  More than that though, when you bring in a player mid-season, it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022).  I think Poeltl would have a tough time adjusting to our defensive scheme in particular, due to his limited mobility/quickness.

As to Gallinari, he is a wild card due to the injury, but assuming he comes back and is more or less the player he was on ATL the last few years, he might give us more than Poeltl, especially if you consider that he would be playing alongside Horford or RWIII a lot of the time.  Having Grant and Gallinari as our PFs with RWIII and Horford as our Cs might be better than Grant and Horford as PFs and RWIII and Poeltl as our Cs.  I think either rotation is pretty good.

I am not going to pretend to know for sure but as I look at Grant, Gallinari, and Poeltl, I see them all as more or less of equal value.  All decent but flawed players.  All better suited as bench players on a title level team, not quite starters.
It seems a lot of people have simply forgotten about Gallo, or assume he won't contribute this year. Understandable, but he continues to make progress and I'd love to see what this could be with him. I think he fits perfectly into this team but he's not the big that some people want.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2023, 02:02:37 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

Poeltl is better than Grant Williams, yes.  Heís better in every way other than outside shooting.

Not being a jerk here, but have you watched Poeltl play?  Questioning whether Gallinari might be a better player, and ranking him behind or equivalent to Grant seems off to me.  If the argument is based upon fit, I guess I get it, but not in terms of pure "who is better".

No offense taken, and in truth, I have not watched Poeltl a ton.  But when I have, what I see is a plodding big who can't shoot FTs but who does have size, skill, and good BBIQ.  More than that though, when you bring in a player mid-season, it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022).  I think Poeltl would have a tough time adjusting to our defensive scheme in particular, due to his limited mobility/quickness.

As to Gallinari, he is a wild card due to the injury, but assuming he comes back and is more or less the player he was on ATL the last few years, he might give us more than Poeltl, especially if you consider that he would be playing alongside Horford or RWIII a lot of the time.  Having Grant and Gallinari as our PFs with RWIII and Horford as our Cs might be better than Grant and Horford as PFs and RWIII and Poeltl as our Cs.  I think either rotation is pretty good.

I am not going to pretend to know for sure but as I look at Grant, Gallinari, and Poeltl, I see them all as more or less of equal value.  All decent but flawed players.  All better suited as bench players on a title level team, not quite starters.
It seems a lot of people have simply forgotten about Gallo, or assume he won't contribute this year. Understandable, but he continues to make progress and I'd love to see what this could be with him. I think he fits perfectly into this team but he's not the big that some people want.

To be fair to this assumption, the Celtics were given the Disabled Player Exception, which means that a league doctor determined it was likely that Gallo wouldnít be available through the end of the NBA Finals, never mind by the start of the playoffs as some of the more optimistic posters here hope for.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2023, 02:55:39 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

No, Poeltl is not better, but Grant is not a big.

"Swing" is probably the best term for him; if you look at his game, it's not a rim-protecting, rebounding role that he plays.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so Iím definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2023, 03:41:23 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

No, Poeltl is not better, but Grant is not a big.

"Swing" is probably the best term for him; if you look at his game, it's not a rim-protecting, rebounding role that he plays.

Yeah, I know there are opinions on this but Grant only plays the PF or C position for the Celtics.  I looked at every 3 man combination for the season and there was only 1 (Grant + Horford + Kornet) where Grant played with two other clear bigs, meaning that you could interpret that Grant was playing wing.  That line up occurred in 1 game for a total of 1.4 minutes and managed to be -7 in that 1.4 minutes.  In all other cases, Grant was the second big on the floor, asked to in general defend the opposing PF mostly, sometimes the opposing C, but never an opposing wing.

You are right that Grant does not protect the rim and he is not a great rebounder but wings create their own shots, handle the ball when needed, defend other wings, and he doesn't do any of that either.  But he does defend PF (and Cs) and he can box them out.  He is a PF whose entire offensive game is sitting in the corner and taking 3s (which he does pretty well).  Very similar to PJ Tucker who is also an undersized PF.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2023, 03:46:53 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I think the fact that this got out means that if he does get moved, the Celtics will not be involved.  Brad operates under the radar and this is obviously someone (either the agent or SA) trying to drum up a market for the guy.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2023, 04:27:45 PM »

Offline footey

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Seems like the next big we should target should have Al Horford skill set in which he can play 4/5 offensively, stretch the floor and defend multiple (all) positions, as Al begins to fade into a bench role over the next several years. Poeltl doesn't really fit that mold. He is more like Rob, although not as versatile defensively.   Don't think that is who Stevens will target.


Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2023, 04:32:47 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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I think the fact that this got out means that if he does get moved, the Celtics will not be involved.  Brad operates under the radar and this is obviously someone (either the agent or SA) trying to drum up a market for the guy.

Every time Poeltl is mentioned in a rumor it feels like his agent is trying to drum up interest. There are not a lot of decent bigs. 2-3 elite. 3-4 good to great. 6-7 like Poeltl that are merely good, a dozen that are mediocre and the rest are just flat out poor options and wouldnít be in the league except theyíre over 6í10Ē tall.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2023, 04:42:42 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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But in general, you donít trade a 1st for a 1/2-year rental reserve, which is what Poeltl is to the Celtics.  Some other team who needs a starter might be more interested, although Iím not sure what team that would be.

Yes, exactly. And, of course, Herr Poeltl has something to say about this, and he's likely to want a bigger role than the third big.

Third big?  You think Poeltl is better than Grant Williams?  Maybe it ends up being kind of a 3A and a 3B.  My prediction would be that Grant would play more minutes than Poeltl if we had them both on the current team.  Just an opinion though.

No, Poeltl is not better, but Grant is not a big.

"Swing" is probably the best term for him; if you look at his game, it's not a rim-protecting, rebounding role that he plays.

Yeah, I know there are opinions on this but Grant only plays the PF or C position for the Celtics.  I looked at every 3 man combination for the season and there was only 1 (Grant + Horford + Kornet) where Grant played with two other clear bigs, meaning that you could interpret that Grant was playing wing.  That line up occurred in 1 game for a total of 1.4 minutes and managed to be -7 in that 1.4 minutes.  In all other cases, Grant was the second big on the floor, asked to in general defend the opposing PF mostly, sometimes the opposing C, but never an opposing wing.

Your assumption is that there are always the same five slots on the floor that are being filled by the players who are actually playing. That was closer to reality eighty years ago, when those pg/sg/sf/pf/c designations first came about; thirty years ago they still made sense.

There has always been a big advantage at the highest levels of the game for players who could create mismatches by using skills that were untypical of one of those five roles; but the rules revolution of a generation ago has amplified and now transformed the whole picture. Five players filling five slots has it backwards in today's game.

From your comment it looks like you think I called Grant a wing; I called him a swing, which is a more modern term for a "stretch 4", though even that is a pretty recent term. Instead of that 1-5 assumption, the reality in today's game is that some teams often play with two centers, to use the old term (like Boston did last year); less remarked on with last year's Celtics was that they were also often playing with two ballhandlers - or that the Schroeder/Smart pairing wasn't working because Schroeder dominated the ball and played like an old-fashioned "point guard".

Actually Grant guards down frequently in the Celtics defense, because they prefer to switch, in many cases, when they get picked, and he winds up on quicker players a lot (one of the many ways that Grant is better than Poeltl, btw). You rightly point out that he can guard up as well, leading to the short-lived nickname of Batman for the job he did on the Joker last year. But that doesn't make him a big, anymore than he's a small forward on the rare occasions when he plays with two bigs. And Brad played Grant a lot (even in his rookie year) with no bigs on the floor, to draw a rim-protector away from the lane when Boston was in the bonus in the fourth quarter - but that didn't make him a big.

You are right that Grant does not protect the rim and he is not a great rebounder but wings create their own shots, handle the ball when needed, defend other wings, and he doesn't do any of that either. 

Actually it's quite common for wings to not create their own shots; the "3 and D" wing is not at all rare in the NBA. As for handling the ball, Grant has been attacking closeouts and dribbling into the lane a fair amount this season, clearly with the support of the coaching staff. As I mentioned, one of his great strengths is his versatility, his ability to switch on to smaller or bigger players.

But again, I didn't say that Grant is a wing.

Very similar to PJ Tucker who is also an undersized PF.

What's the deal with that guy? He takes one shot per 9 1/4 minutes that he's on the floor! But what I'd quibble with is your assumption that there's some sort of normative PF size that players who fill that slot ought to conform to. The fact that PJ, like Grant, is capable of successfully guarding larger players leaves me thinking that those old norms just don't apply. We've got it backwards, as I say. A coach isn't filling slots.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 04:59:36 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so Iím definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2023, 05:04:12 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Seems like the next big we should target should have Al Horford skill set in which he can play 4/5 offensively, stretch the floor and defend multiple (all) positions, as Al begins to fade into a bench role over the next several years. Poeltl doesn't really fit that mold. He is more like Rob, although not as versatile defensively.   Don't think that is who Stevens will target.

On the whole, I agree, especially that I don't think that Boston will trade for him. I am surprised that you compare him to Rob.

Just who that Al Horford replacement could be puzzles me, though. Fortunately Al is still playing at a high level.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so Iím definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2023, 08:41:33 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022)

We went on a winning streak, didn't we after he arrived?

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2023, 08:45:40 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022)

We went on a winning streak, didn't we after he arrived?
We did - but his shot decided to stick around San Antonio for a while, to the chagrin of a few folks (White included)
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so muchóthe wheel, New York, wars and so onówhilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than manófor precisely the same reasons.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2023, 08:58:27 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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it can be hard for that player to acclimate (see Derrick White Circa 2022)

We went on a winning streak, didn't we after he arrived?
We did - but his shot decided to stick around San Antonio for a while, to the chagrin of a few folks (White included)

Yeah, that is my point.  He still found ways to contribute, kudos to him for that, but he was off.  It took him a while.  He is much better this season.  Much more comfortable.  IT is hard to bring in a rotation piece mid season.  I think White had problems acclimating.  I think Poeltl would also.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2023, 12:41:27 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I think Brad has a type. Switchable, athletic types. Poeltl doesnít strike me as such.

Re: Renewed / regurgitated Poeltl rumor
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2023, 01:34:31 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I think Brad has a type. Switchable, athletic types. Poeltl doesnít strike me as such.
The same Brad who seems to love Kornet?