All Star Game Voting - First Returns

[Donoghus]

From Shams.

[jbpats]

Harden over Brown is an absolute joke. Shows why something like this shouldn't be up to a fan vote.

[Roy H.]

Looks like there wasn't any backlash for Kyrie.  SMH.

[jpotter33]

Even at only 50% weight, fan voting is a joke and holds too much weight.

Irving and Harden over Brown are laughable, and Tatum not a starter is, too, though there’s more legit competition there. It’d be an absolute travesty if neither of the Jays are a starter if they continue their dominance and keep the number one seed.

[keevsnick]

I think you can make an argument that out of Giannis, Embiid, Durant and Tatum that Tatum being 4th is okay. I mean those guys are all putting up arguably better numbers than Tatum, their teams are all within 2 in the loss column, and none of them are bad defenders. Giannis and Embiid are DPOY candidates. Being either 3rd or 4th, but it being close, seems fair.

The Kyrie thing I don't get. Guy has been amazing on offense, but so have all those top 4 guards. And he's probably the worst defensively. And that's putting aside the off court stuff. The guy just apparently has a a massive fan following.

[Moranis]

I get Harden has only played 22 games, but he is averaging 22.3 p, 10.8 a, and 6.0 r with a 59.9 TS% and his on/off differential per 100 possession is +6.7 (14-8 with him, 9-6 without him).

Boston is still better when Brown is on the bench as his on/off differential per 100 is -2.4.  He is scoring more than Harden (27.2) on a similar TS% (59.5), but there is a huge difference in assists (10.8 to 3.3) and overall team responsibility.  Obviously Brown is a better defender, but since he has upped his scoring, he isn't as good a defender as he has been in past years (Harden is actually generating more steals and blocks than Brown is). 

[slamtheking]

numbers certainly reflect a big market bias with the fans as Lakers, GSW, Net and Knicks all have players ranked to high in that list. 

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, there are some real head scratchers.  Derrick Rose, Austin Reaves, Kevon Looney.  Westbrook is odd also plus Davis has hardly played (25 of 38 games).  I am not up in arms regarding where Tatum and Brown are.  It is fan voting.  As it stands, Durant would be the starting SF, Tatum the back up.  I prefer Tatum but I am not outraged that fans vote more for Durant.  And for Brown, I don't understand Irving but Mitchell has been great.  Again, I prefer Brown over Mitchell but understand fans voting for Mitchell.  And Harden has declined but is still an elite player.  He probably deserves more votes than Brown.

My East Starters would be:

Mitchell
Harden
Tatum
Giannis
Embiid

If I was building a team, I might pick differently but for the all star game, based on individual performance, these are the best in my mind.  Durant, Butler (as a guard though), and Brown are not far behind though.

[keevsnick]

I get Harden has only played 22 games, but he is averaging 22.3 p, 10.8 a, and 6.0 r with a 59.9 TS% and his on/off differential per 100 possession is +6.7 (14-8 with him, 9-6 without him).

Boston is still better when Brown is on the bench as his on/off differential per 100 is -2.4.  He is scoring more than Harden (27.2) on a similar TS% (59.5), but there is a huge difference in assists (10.8 to 3.3) and overall team responsibility.  Obviously Brown is a better defender, but since he has upped his scoring, he isn't as good a defender as he has been in past years (Harden is actually generating more steals and blocks than Brown is).

Ya I think a 5 ppg difference in scoring at similar efficiency is pretty missive, makes up for most but not all of the playmaking difference. Brown is still a way better defender than Harden, even if you think Brown has been a little worse this year. You talk about "team responsibility." Harden gets hidden on defense, Brown gets stuck on #1 options. That's a big difference. Brown has also played way more than Harden this year, like literally 50% more minutes (1270ish vs about 840ish).

Even putting minutes played aside I'd say that nets out to Jaylen having an edge over Harden, but Harden having a small edge in voting doesn't seem like its a huge travesty. Its at least not like completely crazy.

Ultimately its a fan vote, Harden is a former MVP and a bigger name, he's going to get a boost in fan voting.

[Moranis]

I get Harden has only played 22 games, but he is averaging 22.3 p, 10.8 a, and 6.0 r with a 59.9 TS% and his on/off differential per 100 possession is +6.7 (14-8 with him, 9-6 without him).

Boston is still better when Brown is on the bench as his on/off differential per 100 is -2.4.  He is scoring more than Harden (27.2) on a similar TS% (59.5), but there is a huge difference in assists (10.8 to 3.3) and overall team responsibility.  Obviously Brown is a better defender, but since he has upped his scoring, he isn't as good a defender as he has been in past years (Harden is actually generating more steals and blocks than Brown is).

Ya I think a 5 ppg difference in scoring at similar efficiency is pretty missive, makes up for most but not all of the playmaking difference. Brown is still a way better defender than Harden, even if you think Brown has been a little worse this year. You talk about "team responsibility." Harden gets hidden on defense, Brown gets stuck on #1 options. That's a big difference. Brown has also played way more than Harden this year, like literally 50% more minutes (1270ish vs about 840ish).

Even putting minutes played aside I'd say that nets out to Jaylen having an edge over Harden, but Harden having a small edge in voting doesn't seem like its a huge travesty. Its at least not like completely crazy.

Ultimately its a fan vote, Harden is a former MVP and a bigger name, he's going to get a boost in fan voting.

they are  7.5 apg apart.  That is at a minimum 15 points, which is obviously way more than the 5 ppg they score themselves differently.  Harden is quite simply responsible for significantly more Philly points than Brown is for Boston points. 

[bdm860]

Do you all really think of Jaylen as a guard (so far this season at least)?  Not that classifying him as a forward would help him here.  At least he's borderline though, it's been like 5 years since DeRozan has been a guard.

[RodyTur10]

Sabonis, Lillard, Porzingis and Haliburton are seriously undervalued. And these are just a few examples.

[celticsclay]

Doesn’t seem like harden or jaylen will make it as a starter, but a serious argument for harden over brown when you factor in games played and defense is pretty clearly laughable.

[Vermont Green]

Do you all really think of Jaylen as a guard (so far this season at least)?  Not that classifying him as a forward would help him here.  At least he's borderline though, it's been like 5 years since DeRozan has been a guard.

I totally think of Jaylen Brown as a SG.  He plays some SF too but his primary position is SG.  Has been his whole career.  I know we have been playing a lot of "small ball" this season but in my mind, the Celtics correctly list him as a SG.  In reality, many wings are really a little of both SG and SF

I agree on DeRozan.  He is an odd one.  He is the size of a SG but tends to usually play with two other guards.  The Bulls list him as a SF and most play him as a SF.  Not sure how he got listed as a guard.

[Moranis]

according to bball-ref, Brown has played 35% of his time at SG, 61% at SF, and 3% at PF.  I think that is enough of a percentage for him to reasonably be classified as both guard and frontcourt. 

DeRozan at guard is ridiculous though.  He hasn't played a single second at guard this season and he hasn't in years.  having him classify as a guard is just wrong.