Author Topic: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?  (Read 19757 times)

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PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« on: August 15, 2022, 08:13:16 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Players in every sport have always looked for an edge.  There's a saying that I think I've heard in NASCAR, which is "if you're not cheating, you're not trying".  In baseball, we've seen corked bats, spits balls, amphetamines, and then steroids followed by designer drugs.  In football, we've heard of everything from taping opponents' practices to overinflating / underinflating footballs, to lots and lots of steroids and PEDs.  It's probably fair to say that in every sport, a lot more athletes are juicing than are reported.

Is there an argument that certain PEDs should be legalized and monitored, rather than strictly forbidden?  There are at least a few arguments in favor.  They can help injuries heal faster.  In fact, I think that healing is one of the foremost reasons guys use.  All professional sports cause significant wear and tear on somebody's body.  Even beyond the season-defining injuries, there are muscle aches, bruises, etc.

It also levels the playing field.  Everybody would have access to similar care, without being accused of cheating.  Players wouldn't be faced with an ethical choice about whether to break rules to keep up with their peers.  At the same time, players would be receiving prescription drugs, presumably with all of the quality control that goes into them.  They wouldn't be buying sketchy, illegally-sourced drugs.

And lastly, it would end some hypocrisy in sports, where certain players are treated as "clean" and others as "dirty", without a lot of evidence.  It would also show fans that PEDs alone don't make a player great. 

(Inspiration for this thread today:  watching Roger Clemens give pitching analysis during Sox vs. Yankees.  The man's mind and attention to detail is other-worldly.  His thoughts on technique and mechanics just show he's absolutely brilliant, even among his peers.  Additionally, he had a legendary work ethic.  He is one of the top-two pitchers of his era, along with Greg Maddox.  And yet, a lot of fans are reductive, thinking he simply juiced his way to greatness.)



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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2022, 08:22:53 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I agree. Clemens, Arod, and Bonds are first ballot hall of famers. Baseball writers take themselves and baseball too seriously. McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds we’re great for the sport in the late 90s.

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2022, 10:34:53 AM »

Offline greg683x

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Not trying to derail the thread here but there are things that I’ve always had questions about regarding Clemens and maybe some folks here can provide some insight or offer their opinions since they are Sox fans.

Rogers last 3 to 4 years in Boston, he seemed to hit a wall.  Sub .500 record, and not an awful ERA but definitely an inflated one when compared to previous years.

Then, poof,  the following year he signs with Toronto, he’s winning 20 games with the best ERA he’s had in 7 years.  He was dominant.  The purple elephant in the room is that Jose Canseco was his teammate in Toronto, and according to Canseco, was personally injecting him with the juice bc he couldn’t do it.

The easy explanation is that it must’ve been the juice right?  But I don’t know enough about Clemens final few years in Boston to know why there was such a stark difference in the numbers. 

I think regulated use of certain drugs to help rehabilitate from injuries is fine.  I know that’s what Andy Pettite admitted to.  But abusing other drugs that would give you such an edge that would cause such a significant spike in numbers, the spike that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and possibly Clemens had, is just too much, I consider it cheating at that point.
Greg

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2022, 11:31:14 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Players in every sport have always looked for an edge.  There's a saying that I think I've heard in NASCAR, which is "if you're not cheating, you're not trying".  In baseball, we've seen corked bats, spits balls, amphetamines, and then steroids followed by designer drugs.  In football, we've heard of everything from taping opponents' practices to overinflating / underinflating footballs, to lots and lots of steroids and PEDs.  It's probably fair to say that in every sport, a lot more athletes are juicing than are reported.

Is there an argument that certain PEDs should be legalized and monitored, rather than strictly forbidden?  There are at least a few arguments in favor.  They can help injuries heal faster.  In fact, I think that healing is one of the foremost reasons guys use.  All professional sports cause significant wear and tear on somebody's body.  Even beyond the season-defining injuries, there are muscle aches, bruises, etc.

It also levels the playing field.  Everybody would have access to similar care, without being accused of cheating.  Players wouldn't be faced with an ethical choice about whether to break rules to keep up with their peers.  At the same time, players would be receiving prescription drugs, presumably with all of the quality control that goes into them.  They wouldn't be buying sketchy, illegally-sourced drugs.

And lastly, it would end some hypocrisy in sports, where certain players are treated as "clean" and others as "dirty", without a lot of evidence.  It would also show fans that PEDs alone don't make a player great. 

(Inspiration for this thread today:  watching Roger Clemens give pitching analysis during Sox vs. Yankees.  The man's mind and attention to detail is other-worldly.  His thoughts on technique and mechanics just show he's absolutely brilliant, even among his peers.  Additionally, he had a legendary work ethic.  He is one of the top-two pitchers of his era, along with Greg Maddox.  And yet, a lot of fans are reductive, thinking he simply juiced his way to greatness.)

Did Clemens really have a legendary work ethic his last 4 years or so with the Sox? I thought he was supposed to be pretty out of shape at that point and just mailing it in.

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2022, 12:17:51 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Not trying to derail the thread here but there are things that I’ve always had questions about regarding Clemens and maybe some folks here can provide some insight or offer their opinions since they are Sox fans.

Rogers last 3 to 4 years in Boston, he seemed to hit a wall.  Sub .500 record, and not an awful ERA but definitely an inflated one when compared to previous years.

Then, poof,  the following year he signs with Toronto, he’s winning 20 games with the best ERA he’s had in 7 years.  He was dominant.  The purple elephant in the room is that Jose Canseco was his teammate in Toronto, and according to Canseco, was personally injecting him with the juice bc he couldn’t do it.

The easy explanation is that it must’ve been the juice right?  But I don’t know enough about Clemens final few years in Boston to know why there was such a stark difference in the numbers. 

I think regulated use of certain drugs to help rehabilitate from injuries is fine.  I know that’s what Andy Pettite admitted to.  But abusing other drugs that would give you such an edge that would cause such a significant spike in numbers, the spike that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and possibly Clemens had, is just too much, I consider it cheating at that point.

I think some of it was that the team sucked.  Clemens has been my favorite player since forever, and during that four year period, the bullpen was constantly costing him wins.  During that 1993 to 1996 period, he led the league in Ks his last year.  In 1994, he led the league in ERA+ and in hits allowed per nine innings.  He struggled with some injuries during that time period, but really it was the team around him.  He went 40-39 despite being a very good pitcher; in '94 and '96, he was a top-7 pitcher based upon numbers outside of wins.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml

Just go down to his appearance on leaderboards.

When he hit Toronto, I think he felt challenged by Duquette's "twilight of his career" remarks and contract snub.  So, he busted his ass even more than he had before.  At some point during that time, it's very likely that he juiced, although the theory is that he did that through his trainer rather than through Canseco.

I think PEDs were the biggest factor in improving Clemens longevity; as any of us who have lived through their mid-thirties into their forties knows, the body starts to break down.  But, I don't attribute Clemens' Toronto seasons completely due to PEDs.  He hit the ground running there, and I don't think even his trainer says he was juicing the summer before signing with the Jays.



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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2022, 12:30:56 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Corking bats or pitchers using pine tar does not present a heath risk to the athletes.  I think it is pretty clear that the banned PEDs do pose a health risk.  Guard rails are needed or the athletes would stop at nothing.  If the players want to haggle over use of this specific substance vs. that, then that is fair game.  Maybe there are some cases where the bans go too far.  But in general, I think the banned substances are warranted to be banned.

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2022, 12:37:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Corking bats or pitchers using pine tar does not present a heath risk to the athletes.  I think it is pretty clear that the banned PEDs do pose a health risk.  Guard rails are needed or the athletes would stop at nothing.  If the players want to haggle over use of this specific substance vs. that, then that is fair game.  Maybe there are some cases where the bans go too far.  But in general, I think the banned substances are warranted to be banned.

Counter-point:  if athletes will stop at nothing, isn't it better that they use certain PEDs under a doctor's care, rather than getting stuff through illegal means?


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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2022, 12:41:59 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I'm curious, why do people think that Tom Brady isn't using PEDs?  Despite a sketchy trainer, unprecedented performance at this age, and some body transformation, people rarely bring his name up.  Is it just because he isn't completely jacked?





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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2022, 01:04:50 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Corking bats or pitchers using pine tar does not present a heath risk to the athletes.  I think it is pretty clear that the banned PEDs do pose a health risk.  Guard rails are needed or the athletes would stop at nothing.  If the players want to haggle over use of this specific substance vs. that, then that is fair game.  Maybe there are some cases where the bans go too far.  But in general, I think the banned substances are warranted to be banned.

Counter-point:  if athletes will stop at nothing, isn't it better that they use certain PEDs under a doctor's care, rather than getting stuff through illegal means?

I guess it would depend on the quality of the physicians they’d be using and how all that would be monitored.  Chris Benoit apparently had a prescription and a doctor for his steroids and other growth hormones, then he murders his family.  I know that’s extreme but you get my point.  For Simpsons fans out there, there would be a lot of athletes running right to Dr. Nick Riviera haha
Greg

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2022, 01:06:38 PM »

Offline greg683x

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I'm curious, why do people think that Tom Brady isn't using PEDs?  Despite a sketchy trainer, unprecedented performance at this age, and some body transformation, people rarely bring his name up.  Is it just because he isn't completely jacked?

I think a lot of people just think he’s smarter than everyone in the room.  It’s less about physical ability and more about having the intelligence to just find and pick apart a weakness on a defense
Greg

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2022, 01:13:56 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I'm curious, why do people think that Tom Brady isn't using PEDs?  Despite a sketchy trainer, unprecedented performance at this age, and some body transformation, people rarely bring his name up.  Is it just because he isn't completely jacked?

Also while he is obviously the most extreme version of longevity, the rule changes are allowing players to go longer than ever at qb as they very rarely get hit (and Brady takes very few hits). Brees, rivers and Rodgers have all basically played or will play till their 40’s. That was basically completely Unheard of during the era of Marino, montana, Jim Kelly etc.

I think a lot of people just think he’s smarter than everyone in the room.  It’s less about physical ability and more about having the intelligence to just find and pick apart a weakness on a defense

Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2022, 01:15:35 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Corking bats or pitchers using pine tar does not present a heath risk to the athletes.  I think it is pretty clear that the banned PEDs do pose a health risk.  Guard rails are needed or the athletes would stop at nothing.  If the players want to haggle over use of this specific substance vs. that, then that is fair game.  Maybe there are some cases where the bans go too far.  But in general, I think the banned substances are warranted to be banned.
Most PED's don't actually pose a health risk when used appropriately (or at least much of one).  Of course most athletes aren't using them appropriately.  They take too many, they take them for too long, they mix and match, they get uneven doses, they don't get the pure stuff, etc.  And to Roy's point, a lot of that is because they are doing it behind closed doors and contrary to their sports rules (if not the law), whereas if they were doing it in the open under the care of a doctor, a lot of that stuff would be lessened.
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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2022, 01:17:57 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'm curious, why do people think that Tom Brady isn't using PEDs?  Despite a sketchy trainer, unprecedented performance at this age, and some body transformation, people rarely bring his name up.  Is it just because he isn't completely jacked?
As I've said in other discussions, I pretty much assume all athletes have used PED's or other "illegal" substances at some point in their career. I mean why wouldn't they with the shear amount of money at stake and the relatively minor penalty for doing it.
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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2022, 01:50:30 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I'm curious, why do people think that Tom Brady isn't using PEDs?  Despite a sketchy trainer, unprecedented performance at this age, and some body transformation, people rarely bring his name up.  Is it just because he isn't completely jacked?
As I've said in other discussions, I pretty much assume all athletes have used PED's or other "illegal" substances at some point in their career. I mean why wouldn't they with the shear amount of money at stake and the relatively minor penalty for doing it.

I think it's probably close to everyone in the NFL.  I don't know if a non-juiced athletes could play most positions today.

And, I get skeptical when a guy is better in his 30s than his 20s, and then gets better in his 40s than his late 30s.

I'd get it if Brady had lost an ounce of arm strength, but he's making every throw he ever has.



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Re: PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2022, 02:03:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Clemens last few years in Boston the team sucked, especially the bullpen. I once saw an article showing the amount of runs allowed in by relief pitchers in those years and the wins lost and losses gained due to relief pitching being horrendous and if you took that stuff out of the equation, Clemens' numbers would have looked quite different. It was especially true for that last year here where he was 11-13. That could easily have been a 17-7 year simply by having a better bullpen behind him.