“He’s A Top 20 Guy”

[ChillyWilly]

I love Luka he is from same region as me and offensively he's Larry Bird but he aint no Larry on defense. Hes a bullfighter on defense just ohlay with one move. He needs to get in better shape because he just cant keep anyone in front of him. I have Tatum over him because the gap on the defensive end is too great. Luka is only marginally more impactful on the offensive end and personally I think I'd take Tatum there because he can get his shot against anyone Luka picks his guy every possession. When you watch Dallas offense its entire setup is to rotate the defender he wants to work on. dribble dribble dribble dribble option 1 shot option 2 pass to cutter doesnt work reset start again.

[Moranis]

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Doncic
5. Curry
6. Lebron
7. Embiid
8. Leonard
9. Davis
10. Tatum
11. Morant
12. George
13. Butler
14. Lillard
15. Zion
16. Booker
17. Paul
18. Harden
19. Young
20. Towns

my order would be different, but the only guy I'd take off is Towns and I'd probably just put Edwards in his place.  I thought about Mitchell and Brown, and also taking Young off, but I think I'd give Young and Edwards a very slight edge on Mitchell and Brown.

I think you have the right names in the top 20 for the most part.

Why Young over Brown? Brown isn’t going to win defensive player of this year, but Young might be the biggest liability in the NBA. On offense, they’re both averaging 27pts per game.

Doncic over Tatum? Defense is a big deal in the NBA, and Doncic isn’t good. He’s an offensive wunderkind, and below average on D.

apparently when I said my order would be different now you didn't understand what that meant.  It means the order of the names would be ina different order.

[Moranis]

I have no idea why Chris Paul is in the top 20 still for so many people?  Maybe 3 or 4 years ago?

Paul has been banged up some, but he is 3rd in apg, still generates steals at a high level, and is a superb rebounder.  He has definitely taken a back seat in scoring, but he is doing everything else at a very high level.  Now if you want to dock him for missing so many games, that is certainly reasonable, but I think of lists like this as who is better, not who is having a better season, and I absolutley still believe Paul is a top 20 player.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Doncic
5. Curry
6. Lebron
7. Embiid
8. Leonard
9. Davis
10. Tatum
11. Morant
12. George
13. Butler
14. Lillard
15. Zion
16. Booker
17. Paul
18. Harden
19. Young
20. Towns

my order would be different, but the only guy I'd take off is Towns and I'd probably just put Edwards in his place.  I thought about Mitchell and Brown, and also taking Young off, but I think I'd give Young and Edwards a very slight edge on Mitchell and Brown.

I think you have the right names in the top 20 for the most part.

Why Young over Brown? Brown isn’t going to win defensive player of this year, but Young might be the biggest liability in the NBA. On offense, they’re both averaging 27pts per game.

Doncic over Tatum? Defense is a big deal in the NBA, and Doncic isn’t good. He’s an offensive wunderkind, and below average on D.

apparently when I said my order would be different now you didn't understand what that meant.  It means the order of the names would be ina different order.

Still didn’t answer my question….

Why would Trae young have a slight edge over Jaylen Brown?

[Moranis]

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Doncic
5. Curry
6. Lebron
7. Embiid
8. Leonard
9. Davis
10. Tatum
11. Morant
12. George
13. Butler
14. Lillard
15. Zion
16. Booker
17. Paul
18. Harden
19. Young
20. Towns

my order would be different, but the only guy I'd take off is Towns and I'd probably just put Edwards in his place.  I thought about Mitchell and Brown, and also taking Young off, but I think I'd give Young and Edwards a very slight edge on Mitchell and Brown.

I think you have the right names in the top 20 for the most part.

Why Young over Brown? Brown isn’t going to win defensive player of this year, but Young might be the biggest liability in the NBA. On offense, they’re both averaging 27pts per game.

Doncic over Tatum? Defense is a big deal in the NBA, and Doncic isn’t good. He’s an offensive wunderkind, and below average on D.

apparently when I said my order would be different now you didn't understand what that meant.  It means the order of the names would be ina different order.

Still didn’t answer my question….

Why would Trae young have a slight edge over Jaylen Brown?

Young is averaging 9.9 apg this year.  He accounts for significantly more total offense than Brown and unlike Brown, Young is the focal point of the offense.  Brown is obviously a better defender (though he isn't as good as he has been in prior years), but Young (even with worse shooting) is a better offensive player.  All of the advanced metrics show that i.e. OWS, OBPM, and even things like VORP, WS/48, etc. they are basically equivalent players.  So in that, I'm taking the guy that is the #1 player on his team and bears the brunt of the defense far more often than the other guy and who is quite simply the better offensive player.  Defense matters, but offense matters more and with advanced metrics of similar level, I'm taking the offensive player.  And Young isn't as efficient to start this year as he has been in the past, while Brown is basically playing at a career high.  Trae Young is better than Jaylen Brown. 

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Doncic
5. Curry
6. Lebron
7. Embiid
8. Leonard
9. Davis
10. Tatum
11. Morant
12. George
13. Butler
14. Lillard
15. Zion
16. Booker
17. Paul
18. Harden
19. Young
20. Towns

my order would be different, but the only guy I'd take off is Towns and I'd probably just put Edwards in his place.  I thought about Mitchell and Brown, and also taking Young off, but I think I'd give Young and Edwards a very slight edge on Mitchell and Brown.

I think you have the right names in the top 20 for the most part.

Why Young over Brown? Brown isn’t going to win defensive player of this year, but Young might be the biggest liability in the NBA. On offense, they’re both averaging 27pts per game.

Doncic over Tatum? Defense is a big deal in the NBA, and Doncic isn’t good. He’s an offensive wunderkind, and below average on D.

apparently when I said my order would be different now you didn't understand what that meant.  It means the order of the names would be ina different order.

Still didn’t answer my question….

Why would Trae young have a slight edge over Jaylen Brown?

Young is averaging 9.9 apg this year.  He accounts for significantly more total offense than Brown and unlike Brown, Young is the focal point of the offense.  Brown is obviously a better defender (though he isn't as good as he has been in prior years), but Young (even with worse shooting) is a better offensive player.  All of the advanced metrics show that i.e. OWS, OBPM, and even things like VORP, WS/48, etc. they are basically equivalent players.  So in that, I'm taking the guy that is the #1 player on his team and bears the brunt of the defense far more often than the other guy and who is quite simply the better offensive player.  Defense matters, but offense matters more and with advanced metrics of similar level, I'm taking the offensive player.  And Young isn't as efficient to start this year as he has been in the past, while Brown is basically playing at a career high.  Trae Young is better than Jaylen Brown.

TP for your quick and thoughtful response.

I will agree to disagree based on the eye test. I think it’s hard to watch your best player get picked on consistently on defense. Both the Hawks and Dallas will continue to creatively plug defensive challenges from their star players. This might not show up in advanced stats, but will certainly impact games. Both teams are .500. This is clearly not just on them. Dallas isn’t that talented, and I’m not sure what’s wrong with Atlanta. Both Trae and Luka are two of the top offensive players in the league, no doubt.

Jaylen is averaging 27pts per game, so I don’t think it’s far-fetched that he could be the number one in the mold of Jimmy Butler. I personally enjoy watching two way basketball players, so it might be a preference. I also am biased and think that Jaylen/Smart are better than many others fans.

[Moranis]

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Doncic
5. Curry
6. Lebron
7. Embiid
8. Leonard
9. Davis
10. Tatum
11. Morant
12. George
13. Butler
14. Lillard
15. Zion
16. Booker
17. Paul
18. Harden
19. Young
20. Towns

my order would be different, but the only guy I'd take off is Towns and I'd probably just put Edwards in his place.  I thought about Mitchell and Brown, and also taking Young off, but I think I'd give Young and Edwards a very slight edge on Mitchell and Brown.

I think you have the right names in the top 20 for the most part.

Why Young over Brown? Brown isn’t going to win defensive player of this year, but Young might be the biggest liability in the NBA. On offense, they’re both averaging 27pts per game.

Doncic over Tatum? Defense is a big deal in the NBA, and Doncic isn’t good. He’s an offensive wunderkind, and below average on D.

apparently when I said my order would be different now you didn't understand what that meant.  It means the order of the names would be ina different order.

Still didn’t answer my question….

Why would Trae young have a slight edge over Jaylen Brown?

Young is averaging 9.9 apg this year.  He accounts for significantly more total offense than Brown and unlike Brown, Young is the focal point of the offense.  Brown is obviously a better defender (though he isn't as good as he has been in prior years), but Young (even with worse shooting) is a better offensive player.  All of the advanced metrics show that i.e. OWS, OBPM, and even things like VORP, WS/48, etc. they are basically equivalent players.  So in that, I'm taking the guy that is the #1 player on his team and bears the brunt of the defense far more often than the other guy and who is quite simply the better offensive player.  Defense matters, but offense matters more and with advanced metrics of similar level, I'm taking the offensive player.  And Young isn't as efficient to start this year as he has been in the past, while Brown is basically playing at a career high.  Trae Young is better than Jaylen Brown.

TP for your quick and thoughtful response.

I will agree to disagree based on the eye test. I think it’s hard to watch your best player get picked on consistently on defense. Both the Hawks and Dallas will continue to creatively plug defensive challenges from their star players. This might not show up in advanced stats, but will certainly impact games. Both teams are .500. This is clearly not just on them. Dallas isn’t that talented, and I’m not sure what’s wrong with Atlanta. Both Trae and Luka are two of the top offensive players in the league, no doubt.

Jaylen is averaging 27pts per game, so I don’t think it’s far-fetched that he could be the number one in the mold of Jimmy Butler. I personally enjoy watching two way basketball players, so it might be a preference. I also am biased and think that Jaylen/Smart are better than many others fans.

Brown's game isn't conducive to him being a #1 guy.  He isn't nearly good enough as a ball handler, passer, or frankly even a shot creator to be that type of player.  He is an excellent secondary player, but that is what he is.  Basically a better version of Middleton.  A guy that can elevate a team, but when he misses time the loss isn't felt as much as you would think based on the talent.  And that is so because neither of those guys are #1 players in skill set (though in the case of Brown certainly has the talent that he could be).

And just to be clear, I wouldn't trade Brown for Young as I think Young would be a terrible fit with Tatum, but from evaluating who is better, that is Young.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

It’s a good debate. Offensive stars vs well rounded, less talented players.

I think Luka needs to work on defense unless he wants to become a a polarizing player like a Trae or even Harden. Harden was MVP and had crazy counting stats as well. Some people love him. I wouldn’t sign Harden or Young if I were a GM.

[blink]

I have no idea why Chris Paul is in the top 20 still for so many people?  Maybe 3 or 4 years ago?

Paul has been banged up some, but he is 3rd in apg, still generates steals at a high level, and is a superb rebounder.  He has definitely taken a back seat in scoring, but he is doing everything else at a very high level.  Now if you want to dock him for missing so many games, that is certainly reasonable, but I think of lists like this as who is better, not who is having a better season, and I absolutley still believe Paul is a top 20 player.

I absolutely don't think he is a top 20 player.  Sorry we just disagree.  I am taking about right NOW, this season today, he isn't a top 20 player.  It isn't even close as far as I am concerned.

[Moranis]

I have no idea why Chris Paul is in the top 20 still for so many people?  Maybe 3 or 4 years ago?

Paul has been banged up some, but he is 3rd in apg, still generates steals at a high level, and is a superb rebounder.  He has definitely taken a back seat in scoring, but he is doing everything else at a very high level.  Now if you want to dock him for missing so many games, that is certainly reasonable, but I think of lists like this as who is better, not who is having a better season, and I absolutley still believe Paul is a top 20 player.

I absolutely don't think he is a top 20 player.  Sorry we just disagree.  I am taking about right NOW, this season today, he isn't a top 20 player.  It isn't even close as far as I am concerned.

That is perfectly fair, no reason to apologize, people see the game differently.  I think Paul's ability to run an offense is still at an elite level and that is very important.  Setting up teammates is often underappreciated in my mind and there are still basically no one that does it better than Chris Paul.  He is shooting enough to keep teams honest and still generating steals and rebounding at an elite level, and that is with him being banged up some and in and out of the lineup.  As the season goes on, I certainly could move him out of the top 20 depending on how everyone is playing this year, but at this point, I don't see the need to do so. 

[Kernewek]

This phrase is thrown around so much in the media it’s ridiculous. What’s so comical about it is that if you added up every ‘top twenty guy’, the list would be 50 players deep.

In your opinion (chronologically speaking), who are the current 20 best players in the NBA?

* Remember, this is based on TODAY, not on potential growth or regression of a player.

Might I suggest that the phrase is less of a ranking and more of a descriptor saying "he'd be the best player on most of the teams in the NBA today"?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Giannis
Jokic
Curry
Tatum
Durant
Embiid
Lebron
Leonard
Butler
George
Luka
Davis
Booker
Ja
Zion
Lillard
SGA
Bam
Jaylen
Mitchell

[keevsnick]

Funny you should ask this. After the Ringer released their top 100 list I decide to go back and look at the rankings from ESPN, SI, CBS, Bleacher, Wash Post and The Ringer then average those rankings to find the consensus top 20 NBA players. Here are the results:

Player   Average
Giannis   1
Jokic      2.67
Steph    3
Luka    4.33
Durant   4.83
Joel            6
Lebron   7.33
Tatum    7.83
Morant   11.33
Kawhi    12.17
Butler   12.5
Booker   13.17
George   13.17
Lillard   13.67
Davis   15.17
Young   15.33
Harden   18
Towns   18.33
Brown   20.33
Mitchell   22.33

Of note, only the ringer list takes in account play so far this season. Hence this list is more biased towards what the opinion was to start the year. Mitchell, Davis, Tatum for example might be ranked higher now because of their play this year, Kawhi and Lebron might be lower.

Also of note, the ranking for the top 8 guys were all very tight. I also found the standard deviation of each ranking (how much on average each ranking varies) and it turns out the NBA media pretty much agree on the top 8 guys and roughly where they slot in. Everyone agrees on Giannis at #1. 

[Moranis]

Seems relevant to this thread

https://twitter.com/FTFonFS1/status/1605332428608147457

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

ESPN’s top 25 list of NBA players playing on Christmas (10 teams): https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35293605/nba-christmas-day-ranking-top-25-players-hitting-court-espn-five-game-feast

Interestingly, Chris Paul is picked after Jaylen Brunson, Marcus Smart and even Al Horford. I think many think that Chris Paul is cooked. His playoff collapses can’t help. I think he is one of the more overrated players of the last 10 years, along with Harden and Westbrook. Luka and Trae are heading in that same direction.

To make it into the top echelons of NBA players, you have to win. It’s why I still have problems declaring Tatum as a top 3 player until he wins a chip.