Author Topic: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?  (Read 13954 times)

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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2022, 08:40:03 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Megan Rapinoe....eventually

Is she even top-ten all-time in her sport?



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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2022, 09:04:27 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Megan Rapinoe....eventually

Is she even top-ten all-time in her sport?
Definitely, yeah. Top 5 on many many lists.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2022, 11:20:44 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Megan Rapinoe....eventually

Is she even top-ten all-time in her sport?
Definitely, yeah. Top 5 on many many lists.
I don't think that is true even among Americans, let alone when you count the world.  I think it would be hard to put her ahead of Hamm, Wambach, Akers, Lilly, Lloyd, Chastain, Foudy, the 2 goalies Scurry and Solo, and then you have older players like Jennings-Gabarra, Milbrett, and Fawcett not to mention contemporaries like Morgan and Ertz that are still going strong or defenders like Rampone (now Pearce) that just played forever. 

And that is just Americans.  You add in the foreign women (you know Marta, Prinz, Wen, Sawa, Sinclair, Smith, Angerer, Riise, Sissi, Sundhage, Parr, Rottenberg, etc.) and Rapinoe isn't even a top 25 player all time and may not even be a top 50 player all time. 
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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2022, 05:24:31 AM »

Online Kernewek

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Kareem and Navratilova spring to mind immediately.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but can LeBron be far off the list.  We know what he has done on the court, but look at what his LeBron James Family Foundation.  Now, much of this work has centered in the Akron area, but that's a heck of a lot better than many!
His off-court work has certainly been very impressive, don't get me wrong.

But I think Kareem and his involvement in the civil rights movement, and Navratilova's involvement in gay rights (despite her recent JK Rowling-ness) were more significant.

LeBron is still in his 30s though. Plenty of time to make significant change.

Believe it or not I was really start to come around Lebron off the court about three years ago. He has had two pretty big misteps  the last few years with his comments calling Morey Ill informed and also in really fanning the flames of racial tension with his “your next” for a cop that may Have not even done anything wrong. If people think Lebron is in the same world as kareem I encourage you to read this and his other pieces

https://kareem.substack.com/p/the-way-china-is-treating-us-were

There is a pretty huge difference than Lebron reading the first page of a book for camera.

Respectfully, if you dig into Kareem's background you can find many similar 'missteps' if you care to find them. That doesn't diminish the work that he's done, and the same should be true for LeBron as well.

Imagine, for example, the reaction if prime LeBron decided to boycott the Olympics because of the George Floyd protests. Kareem did that in 1968.

Imagine, for example, LeBron getting this interview question and providing this answer:
Quote
Q: Apparently in a somewhat bitter mood you made some comment about American society that it wasn't your society or anything. Has that changed over the years? is that an accurate quote?

A: The quote was kind of accurate in the fact that at the time it was like very obvious that being an Afro-American meant being a second-class citizen and in that context i wasn't really an American of course I'm an American -  Afro-Americans have been here since the inception of of this whole society. We built jamestown. We were here from the beginning and the access to all the benefits of American society has been denied to us and that has to be changed and it has to be changed soon because people's lives depend on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep1hoatX28s
This interview has some more 'spicy' takes that can upset certain people but are generally much ado about nothing.

Now, there's no argument from me that Kareem is more eloquent and better spoken than most athletes (not a high bar, to be fair), but it's hilarious to me that you would think of LeBron as 'fanning the flames of racial tension' in comparison to someone who was legitimately involved in civil rights - which by necessity involves 'fanning the flames of racial tension'.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 05:34:22 AM by Kernewek »
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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2022, 06:51:49 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Kareem and Navratilova spring to mind immediately.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but can LeBron be far off the list.  We know what he has done on the court, but look at what his LeBron James Family Foundation.  Now, much of this work has centered in the Akron area, but that's a heck of a lot better than many!
His off-court work has certainly been very impressive, don't get me wrong.

But I think Kareem and his involvement in the civil rights movement, and Navratilova's involvement in gay rights (despite her recent JK Rowling-ness) were more significant.

LeBron is still in his 30s though. Plenty of time to make significant change.

Believe it or not I was really start to come around Lebron off the court about three years ago. He has had two pretty big misteps  the last few years with his comments calling Morey Ill informed and also in really fanning the flames of racial tension with his “your next” for a cop that may Have not even done anything wrong. If people think Lebron is in the same world as kareem I encourage you to read this and his other pieces

https://kareem.substack.com/p/the-way-china-is-treating-us-were

There is a pretty huge difference than Lebron reading the first page of a book for camera.

Respectfully, if you dig into Kareem's background you can find many similar 'missteps' if you care to find them. That doesn't diminish the work that he's done, and the same should be true for LeBron as well.

Imagine, for example, the reaction if prime LeBron decided to boycott the Olympics because of the George Floyd protests. Kareem did that in 1968.

Imagine, for example, LeBron getting this interview question and providing this answer:
Quote
Q: Apparently in a somewhat bitter mood you made some comment about American society that it wasn't your society or anything. Has that changed over the years? is that an accurate quote?

A: The quote was kind of accurate in the fact that at the time it was like very obvious that being an Afro-American meant being a second-class citizen and in that context i wasn't really an American of course I'm an American -  Afro-Americans have been here since the inception of of this whole society. We built jamestown. We were here from the beginning and the access to all the benefits of American society has been denied to us and that has to be changed and it has to be changed soon because people's lives depend on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep1hoatX28s
This interview has some more 'spicy' takes that can upset certain people but are generally much ado about nothing.

Now, there's no argument from me that Kareem is more eloquent and better spoken than most athletes (not a high bar, to be fair), but it's hilarious to me that you would think of LeBron as 'fanning the flames of racial tension' in comparison to someone who was legitimately involved in civil rights - which by necessity involves 'fanning the flames of racial tension'.

Is there a difference between Kareem saying (in short) that America can suck for blacks, as opposed to targeting a specific white police officer who was innocent of wrong-doing (and actually saved lives) by saying “you’re next” on social media?

The issue isn’t necessarily fanning flames, it’s being extremely irresponsible.


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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2022, 07:22:29 AM »

Online Kernewek

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Kareem and Navratilova spring to mind immediately.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but can LeBron be far off the list.  We know what he has done on the court, but look at what his LeBron James Family Foundation.  Now, much of this work has centered in the Akron area, but that's a heck of a lot better than many!
His off-court work has certainly been very impressive, don't get me wrong.

But I think Kareem and his involvement in the civil rights movement, and Navratilova's involvement in gay rights (despite her recent JK Rowling-ness) were more significant.

LeBron is still in his 30s though. Plenty of time to make significant change.

Believe it or not I was really start to come around Lebron off the court about three years ago. He has had two pretty big misteps  the last few years with his comments calling Morey Ill informed and also in really fanning the flames of racial tension with his “your next” for a cop that may Have not even done anything wrong. If people think Lebron is in the same world as kareem I encourage you to read this and his other pieces

https://kareem.substack.com/p/the-way-china-is-treating-us-were

There is a pretty huge difference than Lebron reading the first page of a book for camera.

Respectfully, if you dig into Kareem's background you can find many similar 'missteps' if you care to find them. That doesn't diminish the work that he's done, and the same should be true for LeBron as well.

Imagine, for example, the reaction if prime LeBron decided to boycott the Olympics because of the George Floyd protests. Kareem did that in 1968.

Imagine, for example, LeBron getting this interview question and providing this answer:
Quote
Q: Apparently in a somewhat bitter mood you made some comment about American society that it wasn't your society or anything. Has that changed over the years? is that an accurate quote?

A: The quote was kind of accurate in the fact that at the time it was like very obvious that being an Afro-American meant being a second-class citizen and in that context i wasn't really an American of course I'm an American -  Afro-Americans have been here since the inception of of this whole society. We built jamestown. We were here from the beginning and the access to all the benefits of American society has been denied to us and that has to be changed and it has to be changed soon because people's lives depend on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep1hoatX28s
This interview has some more 'spicy' takes that can upset certain people but are generally much ado about nothing.

Now, there's no argument from me that Kareem is more eloquent and better spoken than most athletes (not a high bar, to be fair), but it's hilarious to me that you would think of LeBron as 'fanning the flames of racial tension' in comparison to someone who was legitimately involved in civil rights - which by necessity involves 'fanning the flames of racial tension'.

Is there a difference between Kareem saying (in short) that America can suck for blacks, as opposed to targeting a specific white police officer who was innocent of wrong-doing (and actually saved lives) by saying “you’re next” on social media?

The issue isn’t necessarily fanning flames, it’s being extremely irresponsible.

If your point (which Kareem and everyone else in this conversation has echoed) is that LeBron doesn't always live up to our expectation of how he should conduct himself on social media I have two observations:

1 - We've already had a different thread (which has been locked) on that topic, generally.

2 - It's a relatively inconsequential observation in the face of the broader point.

Further, because I'm confused, could you provide an example of an 'extremely responsible' way of 'fanning the flames of racial tension'?
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2022, 07:23:17 AM »

Offline boscel33

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Megan Rapinoe....eventually

Is she even top-ten all-time in her sport?
Definitely, yeah. Top 5 on many many lists.

She's not top five even just in the US, IMO.

Abby, Mia, Alex, Hope, Rapone, and Carli, to name a few, I think are ahead of her in the US (in no order).

Now add, the world, and that list changes significantly by adding Marta, Sawa, Martens, to name a handful.

Don't get me wrong, Rapinoe is an all time great player, just not top ten IMO.




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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2022, 07:28:10 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Megan Rapinoe....eventually

Is she even top-ten all-time in her sport?
Definitely, yeah. Top 5 on many many lists.

She's not top five even just in the US, IMO.

Abby, Mia, Alex, Hope, Rapone, and Carli, to name a few, I think are ahead of her in the US (in no order).

Now add, the world, and that list changes significantly by adding Marta, Sawa, Martens, to name a handful.

Don't get me wrong, Rapinoe is an all time great player, just not top ten IMO.

That's the impression I got looking online, but I'm not an expert, or even a casual fan.  The only foreign great I can name is Marta, and I'm pretty confident that Mia Hamm is the best US player ever.  Outside of that, I've got nothing.

And, to me, if you go outside the top-10 of your sport, you're not in Bill Russell territory.  But, Rapinoe obviously is an excellent player who uses her platform to advance human rights, so bringing her name up makes sense. 


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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2022, 07:43:16 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Kareem and Navratilova spring to mind immediately.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but can LeBron be far off the list.  We know what he has done on the court, but look at what his LeBron James Family Foundation.  Now, much of this work has centered in the Akron area, but that's a heck of a lot better than many!
His off-court work has certainly been very impressive, don't get me wrong.

But I think Kareem and his involvement in the civil rights movement, and Navratilova's involvement in gay rights (despite her recent JK Rowling-ness) were more significant.

LeBron is still in his 30s though. Plenty of time to make significant change.

Believe it or not I was really start to come around Lebron off the court about three years ago. He has had two pretty big misteps  the last few years with his comments calling Morey Ill informed and also in really fanning the flames of racial tension with his “your next” for a cop that may Have not even done anything wrong. If people think Lebron is in the same world as kareem I encourage you to read this and his other pieces

https://kareem.substack.com/p/the-way-china-is-treating-us-were

There is a pretty huge difference than Lebron reading the first page of a book for camera.

Respectfully, if you dig into Kareem's background you can find many similar 'missteps' if you care to find them. That doesn't diminish the work that he's done, and the same should be true for LeBron as well.

Imagine, for example, the reaction if prime LeBron decided to boycott the Olympics because of the George Floyd protests. Kareem did that in 1968.

Imagine, for example, LeBron getting this interview question and providing this answer:
Quote
Q: Apparently in a somewhat bitter mood you made some comment about American society that it wasn't your society or anything. Has that changed over the years? is that an accurate quote?

A: The quote was kind of accurate in the fact that at the time it was like very obvious that being an Afro-American meant being a second-class citizen and in that context i wasn't really an American of course I'm an American -  Afro-Americans have been here since the inception of of this whole society. We built jamestown. We were here from the beginning and the access to all the benefits of American society has been denied to us and that has to be changed and it has to be changed soon because people's lives depend on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep1hoatX28s
This interview has some more 'spicy' takes that can upset certain people but are generally much ado about nothing.

Now, there's no argument from me that Kareem is more eloquent and better spoken than most athletes (not a high bar, to be fair), but it's hilarious to me that you would think of LeBron as 'fanning the flames of racial tension' in comparison to someone who was legitimately involved in civil rights - which by necessity involves 'fanning the flames of racial tension'.

Is there a difference between Kareem saying (in short) that America can suck for blacks, as opposed to targeting a specific white police officer who was innocent of wrong-doing (and actually saved lives) by saying “you’re next” on social media?

The issue isn’t necessarily fanning flames, it’s being extremely irresponsible.

If your point (which Kareem and everyone else in this conversation has echoed) is that LeBron doesn't always live up to our expectation of how he should conduct himself on social media I have two observations:

1 - We've already had a different thread (which has been locked) on that topic, generally.

2 - It's a relatively inconsequential observation in the face of the broader point.

Further, because I'm confused, could you provide an example of an 'extremely responsible' way of 'fanning the flames of racial tension'?

You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

And, I'm not sure if it's inconsequential.  The I don't think the criticism of Lebron is, "you're not perfect".  It's that he has great power, and often times he's irresponsible.  In the post-George Floyd context, painting a target on an innocent person's back of "you're next" is dangerous and wrong. 

But, yes, irresponsibility doesn't negate the good things he's done.  He's reportedly given $100+ million to charitable causes.  That's money he could have kept for himself, so I think he gets humongous credit for that.  But, before considering him a human rights icon, I do think its fair to to examine his message and see if he's spreading the right message.  And part of that is what clay alluded to:  is Lebron making race relations better or worse with his advocacy?


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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2022, 08:05:11 AM »

Online Kernewek

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You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2022, 08:44:25 AM »

Offline Moranis

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You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 08:55:23 AM by Moranis »
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Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2022, 01:09:14 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I mean I think bigger than the the messaging around race relations in the US, can anyone else picture Kareem or Ruselll going out of their way to protect the logo by making the comments about China that Lebron did? I think we have a whole lot of evidence to suggest they wouldn’t have done that and would have came down hard on China if it was raised to them and involving the league. Heck kareem even wrote an essay about this. I think the level of sacrifice Lebron is making is influenced by the impact it would have in his pocket book. He wouldn’t boycott the Olympics as someone brought my up cause of how much money it would cost him. He wouldn’t leave the bubble, which was talked about, for the same reason. He certainly does a lot of good off the court, and is much better than a lot of nba legends in that regard. But lumping him in as the same category as Russell and Jabbar is rather insulting to those two who repeatedly made real risks to their livelihoods in a way Lebron hasn’t even been in the ball park of.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2022, 01:13:47 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.

I think that is a fair point about Ali, but I don’t really think it is for kareem cause he in fact alive and active on social media today and is very well received for his thoughtful writing and posts. It probably would hav wonky enhanced his legacy.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2022, 01:42:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.

I think that is a fair point about Ali, but I don’t really think it is for kareem cause he in fact alive and active on social media today and is very well received for his thoughtful writing and posts. It probably would hav wonky enhanced his legacy.
except Kareem has said how much different he was as a young man than the guy he is today.  He had the benefit of maturing for years past his post-playing career before Twitter came around.  He wasn't making money the same way either.  I don't think Kareem's twitter in the 70's would have looked anything like his twitter today (and I don't think Lebron's will either 40 years after he retires).  The internet is just a whole different ball game for players. 

I mean this article is nothing like it would have been had he published it in 1971 in soundbites on twitter.

https://kareemabduljabbar.com/kareem-shares-why-he-converted-to-islam/
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2022, 02:01:53 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15739
  • Tommy Points: 1386
You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.

I think that is a fair point about Ali, but I don’t really think it is for kareem cause he in fact alive and active on social media today and is very well received for his thoughtful writing and posts. It probably would hav wonky enhanced his legacy.
except Kareem has said how much different he was as a young man than the guy he is today.  He had the benefit of maturing for years past his post-playing career before Twitter came around.  He wasn't making money the same way either.  I don't think Kareem's twitter in the 70's would have looked anything like his twitter today (and I don't think Lebron's will either 40 years after he retires).  The internet is just a whole different ball game for players. 

I mean this article is nothing like it would have been had he published it in 1971 in soundbites on twitter.

https://kareemabduljabbar.com/kareem-shares-why-he-converted-to-islam/

Based on a decade of your posting about Lebron I think it is pretty clear we are not going to have any objective conversations about him with you. So probably pointless for me continue this with you specifically. If you really think Lebron has been willing to risk as much for his career as Kareem or Russel actually did, we can just agree to disagree.