Author Topic: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?  (Read 5855 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2022, 02:26:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31195
  • Tommy Points: 1439
You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.

I think that is a fair point about Ali, but I donít really think it is for kareem cause he in fact alive and active on social media today and is very well received for his thoughtful writing and posts. It probably would hav wonky enhanced his legacy.
except Kareem has said how much different he was as a young man than the guy he is today.  He had the benefit of maturing for years past his post-playing career before Twitter came around.  He wasn't making money the same way either.  I don't think Kareem's twitter in the 70's would have looked anything like his twitter today (and I don't think Lebron's will either 40 years after he retires).  The internet is just a whole different ball game for players. 

I mean this article is nothing like it would have been had he published it in 1971 in soundbites on twitter.

https://kareemabduljabbar.com/kareem-shares-why-he-converted-to-islam/

Based on a decade of your posting about Lebron I think it is pretty clear we are not going to have any objective conversations about him with you. So probably pointless for me continue this with you specifically. If you really think Lebron has been willing to risk as much for his career as Kareem or Russel actually did, we can just agree to disagree.
I never said that.  Didn't even imply it.  Just your typical nonsense.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2022, 02:39:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14507
  • Tommy Points: 1345
You gave one:  Kareem fanned flamed.  Bill Russell fanned flames.  People shouldn't bend their knee to racism and go along to get along.  You can protest without being extremely irresponsible.

Before we talk too far past each other - my point is that at the time the narratives around Kareem and Russ bear some similarities to what Clay's said about Lebron - look at how Kareem describes the response to the Olympics:
Quote
When I boycotted the 1968 Olympics because of the gross racial inequities, I was met with a vicious backlash criticizing my lack of gratitude for being invited into the air-conditioned Big House where I could comfortably watch my community swelter and suffer.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlete-protests-nba-mlb-jacob-blake

More details here, including a classic 'love it or leave it' moment: 
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Race_Culture_and_the_Revolt_of_the_Black.html?id=KNvIe2JE0vIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Alcindor&f=false

Or how he described his takeaway from being wrapped up in the 'extremely responsible' Harlem Race Riots:
Quote
Right then and there [finding myself in the middle of the riots], I knew who I was, who I had to be. I was going to be black rage personified, Black Power in the flesh.And I decided in my personification of Black Power and black pride I was no longer going to Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.foot around the whites. I was going to speak my mind. It was immature thinking, I know. But it was real. It was me at age 17.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1969/10/27/43086#&gid=ci0258bfad406326ef&pid=43086---087---image
(page 99 if you want to skip ahead)

So I think part of the great siren calls regarding how people talk about this stuff is the urge to frame it as "noble efforts working to solve a problem that exists exclusively in the past" - tied up in that is an idea that most people would necessarily support Kareem and Bill today.

That is not what happened at the time, and it's almost certainly not rooted in the reality of what would happen today - just look at the discourse around someone like Kaepernick as an example if we don't want to talk about LeBron.



On LeBron - For me, my take is that he's done a lot of good, and I think he could do a bit better in his messaging. But he has a lot of time to do better.
Lebron is also in the age of Social Media and Twitter.  It is just so much easier to say things in the moment that don't come off all that well.  That just didn't exist for guys like Kareem during their playing days.  It is just a different animal entirely. 

I mean can you imagine what Ali's twitter would have looked like in the 70's (or Kareem's for that matter). I'm not sure Bill's would have changed much as that wasn't his personality, but a lot of the older guys definitely benefitted from not having social media, at least with respect to how they are viewed today.

I think that is a fair point about Ali, but I donít really think it is for kareem cause he in fact alive and active on social media today and is very well received for his thoughtful writing and posts. It probably would hav wonky enhanced his legacy.
except Kareem has said how much different he was as a young man than the guy he is today.  He had the benefit of maturing for years past his post-playing career before Twitter came around.  He wasn't making money the same way either.  I don't think Kareem's twitter in the 70's would have looked anything like his twitter today (and I don't think Lebron's will either 40 years after he retires).  The internet is just a whole different ball game for players. 

I mean this article is nothing like it would have been had he published it in 1971 in soundbites on twitter.

https://kareemabduljabbar.com/kareem-shares-why-he-converted-to-islam/

Based on a decade of your posting about Lebron I think it is pretty clear we are not going to have any objective conversations about him with you. So probably pointless for me continue this with you specifically. If you really think Lebron has been willing to risk as much for his career as Kareem or Russel actually did, we can just agree to disagree.
I never said that.  Didn't even imply it.  Just your typical nonsense.

I was actually trying to be respectful about our differences in opinion mo, apologies it did not come off that way.

Re: How many living athletes are in Bill Russell's class?
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2022, 06:05:04 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19644
  • Tommy Points: 1303
None of these other people mentioned compare to Russ in terms of Societal, Professional Impact and Winning.   Some of the names proposed are downright ludricous, not pointing any names out.