Author Topic: What if: Redo Celtics History  (Read 9179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What if: Redo Celtics History
« on: January 18, 2022, 07:27:51 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58269
  • Tommy Points: -25649
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Rules: 

You can change three discrete moments / events from Celtics history per decade, starting in the 1970s.  Those moments can't be game outcomes / missed shots, etc., but they can be re-doing draft picks, trades, preventing injuries (or a couple of obvious deaths, sadly), not signing certain free agents, etc.  You may second guess one decision in the 2020s.

Please try to only change things that we know could have happened (i.e., no trading Dee Brown for a Cavaliers #1 that eventually became Lebron).

Go as far down the rabbit hole as you want.  For instance, if we hadn't traded for Kyrie, then we could have done X, Y, Z.

Use this format:

1970s:

1.
2.
3.

1980s:

1.
2.
3.

1990s:

1.
2.
3.

2000s:

1.
2.
3.

2010s:

1.
2.
3.

2020s:

1.



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2022, 08:56:24 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33316
  • Tommy Points: 1528
Does it have to actually be something from the Celtics or for example can I change the coin flip that sent Magic Johnson to the Lakers?
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2022, 09:35:30 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58269
  • Tommy Points: -25649
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Alright, I'll go first.

1970s:

1.  Hondo doesn't get injured in 1973;
2.  Void the Westphal trade;
3.  Void the Silas for Rowe trade

1980s:

1.  Len Bias doesn't overdose
2.  Larry doesn't get bone spurs and plays in '89
3.  Shawn Kemp over Michael Smith

1990s:

1.  Reggie Lewis doesn't develop heart problems;
2. Larry doesn't injure his back
3. Take McGrady over Mercer


2000s:

1.  The Celts "roll over" the 2001 Denver pick, instead of taking Kedrick Brown
2.  KG doesn't get injured;
3.  The Celts don't trade Joe Johnson
3b.  Celts draft Tony Parker

2010s:

1.  Duh. We draft Giannis.
2.  Gordon Hayward doesn't get hurt
3.  Nikola Jokic over James Young

2020s:

1.  Void Kemba trade; draft Sengun


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2022, 10:57:49 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33316
  • Tommy Points: 1528
70's are harder for me, but from a draft perspective I'd think taking Gus Williams (20th) or World B. Free (23rd) instead of Tom Boswell (17th) would have made a difference in those 80's series.  Or in 74 taking Truck Robinson (22nd) instead of Glenn McDonald (17th).  Or basically anyone else aside from Clarence Glover in 71 or Spencer Haywood (30th) instead of Jim Rose (28th).  I mean the first 2 rounds of that 71 draft Boston got 1 season and just 25 games from Glover and Rose didn't play at all.  At least the 3rd round pick that year Dave Robisch had a decent career.  The 4th Rounder Randy Denton also only played 1 season and just 45 games.  So of the 12 draft picks that season, Boston only had 3 guys play and only 1 lasted more than a season.  That wasn't necessarily uncommon back then, but there were obviously guys that did well that Boston just totally whiffed on and you'd expect more from your first 2 picks even then.

So for the 70's I'd change 3 drafts

71 - draft Spencer Haywood instead of Jim Rose
74 - draft Truck Robinson instead of Glenn McDonald
75 - draft Gus Williams instead of Tom Boswell

Now if we are talking about non-Celtics related things, I'd absolutely change the coin flip in 1979 from the Jazz to the Bulls.  The Jazz's pick was owned by the Lakers and by winning that, Magic ended up in L.A.  Had Chicago won the coin flip, Magic ends up in Chicago and the entire outlook of the 80's and invariably the 90's (Chicago isn't in position to draft Jordan if they have Magic) is drastically different.  I'd expect Boston to have more titles if Magic had joined a Bulls team with Gilmore and Theus instead of joining Kareem in LA.  Certainly would have been a much different 20 years based on that single coin flip.

I'll look at the other decades later.  I'm trying not to duplicate what Roy has done, which is why I went draft/coin flip in 70's and why it is harder to do the other decades since Roy has clearly taken some of the more obvious things.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2022, 11:01:02 AM »

Online wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34018
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
For the 2020's


1)  Kemba doesn't get hurt
2)  Never sign Thompson
3)  Keep Hayward.

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2022, 11:07:47 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58269
  • Tommy Points: -25649
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Does it have to actually be something from the Celtics or for example can I change the coin flip that sent Magic Johnson to the Lakers?

My intent was that it be directly related to the Celtics, but take it in whatever direction you want.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 11:15:33 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58269
  • Tommy Points: -25649
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
The one I almost went with in the 1980s:

Void the Cedric Maxwell + #1 for Bill Walton trade

Now, this is dependent upon mending some fences with Max.  Maybe that wasn't possible.  And, obviously, Walton was awesome as 6th Man, helping cement that 1986 as one of the best (or the best) team(s) of all-time.

So, why void it?  Because of the #1 pick we gave up.  That pick was used on Sabonis, although he didn't come over for several more years.  Could Red have convinced him to come over sooner?  Quite possibly.  And if not Sabonis, then I'm taking Rodman.

Since Walton only had one good year with us, I'd take my chances on winning a title with Max, and then following that up the next year with Sabonis or Rodman. 

If we came out of the 1986 draft with Bias and Rodman, we could have kept the title parade going.  I suspect we win in 1986, and add at least two more titles in the remainder of the 80s / early 90s.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 12:14:19 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
1970s:  didn't start following the C's until Bird's rookie year so I'll swipe Roy's ideas since they seem pretty good.

1.  Hondo doesn't get injured in 1973;
2.  Void the Westphal trade;
3.  Void the Silas for Rowe trade

1980s: 

1.  Len Bias doesn't overdose -- would have the C's either get Bias into town for publicity or put a baby sitter on him right after the draft to prevent it.
2.  Mchale doesn't break his foot and Walton's foot issues don't come back in '87
3.  draft Tim Hardaway instead of Michael Smith

1990s:

1. Reggie Lewis doesn't develop heart problems - the most obvious one
2. Larry doesn't injure his back --> hires professionals to do the work where he hurts himself
3. trade the #3 and #6 picks in 1997for Toronto's first round picks in 1998 and 1999 to get Vince Carter and Richard Hamilton (or Shawn Marion) in those drafts.  If that's not an option, then go with the Mcgrady pick over Mercer.


2000s:

1.  KG doesn't get injured in 2009
2.  Perk doesn't get injured in game 6 of the 2010 finals
3. C's trade Kedrick Brown instead of Joe Johnson for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk

2010s:

1.  Gordon Hayward doesn't get hurt
2.  Draft Giannis instead of KO
3.  Nikola Jokic over James Young
(hard to argue anything over these options from Roy although looking back on how Kyrie poisoned the clubhouse and was a complete tool towards the franchise and city, I'd say not pull the trigger on that deal and as a result not have the Rose Rule block the acquisition of AD from the Pelicans)

2020s:
- hire a veteran coach instead of Udoka.  J's need someone who knows what they're doing and Ime isn't that guy

This is all assuming that these moves are in an individual vacuum and not a cascading series of events

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 12:21:51 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33316
  • Tommy Points: 1528
Does it have to actually be something from the Celtics or for example can I change the coin flip that sent Magic Johnson to the Lakers?

My intent was that it be directly related to the Celtics, but take it in whatever direction you want.
That is why I asked, I just think doing that and the Lakers are never what they were in the 80's and you don't have the rise of Jordan in Chicago (though maybe he ends up somewhere else with better teammates from the start).  That to me probably means more Celtics titles, which is obviously the goal of this exercise.  It would be a really interesting change that may very well have changed the league more than any other singular change you could make.  All because of a coin flip. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 06:04:29 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 744
  • Tommy Points: 25
A start
1970s:

1. Russell plays 2-3 more years. Building a bridge and maybe overlap to Cowens.
2.
3.

1980s:

1. Len Bias Doesn't die
2. Larry's back is invinsible. Plays the 90's as an MVP player.
3.

1990s:

1. Reggie Lewis Doesn't Die
2. Ping pong balls Duncan
3. Don't Hire Pitino / Don't trade Chauncey

2000s:

1.
2.
3.

2010s:

1. Draft Giannis
2. Trade Kyrie at the 2018-19 Deadline.
3.

2020s:

1.

I start with Russell, maybe the dynasty never ends. More to come I hope. Is there a scenario where the Celtics never lose dominance.

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 06:24:58 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 744
  • Tommy Points: 25
The one I almost went with in the 1980s:

Void the Cedric Maxwell + #1 for Bill Walton trade

Now, this is dependent upon mending some fences with Max.  Maybe that wasn't possible.  And, obviously, Walton was awesome as 6th Man, helping cement that 1986 as one of the best (or the best) team(s) of all-time.

So, why void it?  Because of the #1 pick we gave up.  That pick was used on Sabonis, although he didn't come over for several more years.  Could Red have convinced him to come over sooner?  Quite possibly.  And if not Sabonis, then I'm taking Rodman.

Since Walton only had one good year with us, I'd take my chances on winning a title with Max, and then following that up the next year with Sabonis or Rodman. 

If we came out of the 1986 draft with Bias and Rodman, we could have kept the title parade going.  I suspect we win in 1986, and add at least two more titles in the remainder of the 80s / early 90s.
I couldn't trade that year away. Walton sayaing "I'm glad Larry Bird is on my team" is classic. I'll concede that Sabonis might have been as impactful. But Walton on that team are my best memories.

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 06:59:25 PM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15948
  • Tommy Points: 1833
Who (besides me) was at the game in '73 when Hondo got hurt (running into a Dave Debusschere pick)?

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 09:16:31 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33316
  • Tommy Points: 1528
I wonder how much Hondo would have had left in him anyway.  He was over a decade in at that point and guys didn't play much past a decade back then anyway and the C's still won the title in 74 and 76.  Maybe they win in 73 or 75, but that is questionable.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2022, 10:08:29 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58269
  • Tommy Points: -25649
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
I wonder how much Hondo would have had left in him anyway.  He was over a decade in at that point and guys didn't play much past a decade back then anyway and the C's still won the title in 74 and 76.  Maybe they win in 73 or 75, but that is questionable.

He was on top of his game in ‘74 and ‘76, and the Celts won 68 games in ‘73.  A title was a foregone conclusion in ‘73 in he didn’t get hurt in the Conference Finals.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2022, 10:46:55 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33316
  • Tommy Points: 1528
I wonder how much Hondo would have had left in him anyway.  He was over a decade in at that point and guys didn't play much past a decade back then anyway and the C's still won the title in 74 and 76.  Maybe they win in 73 or 75, but that is questionable.

He was on top of his game in ‘74 and ‘76, and the Celts won 68 games in ‘73.  A title was a foregone conclusion in ‘73 in he didn’t get hurt in the Conference Finals.
Maybe, but he got hurt in game 3 (towards the end I believe) and after that game New York led 2-1.  And of the 8 games the teams played in the regular season they were 4-4.  I don't think it was a guarantee they beat New York.  They almost assuredly would have beaten LA had they beaten the Knicks though.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip