Poll

Of the 4 American sports, who is the greatest G.O.A.T?

Michael Jordan - NBA
4 (13.3%)
Tom Brady - NFL
11 (36.7%)
Babe Ruth - MLB
8 (26.7%)
Wayne Gretzky - NHL
7 (23.3%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?  (Read 21867 times)

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Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2021, 02:12:25 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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I wouldn’t have Brady first.  He may be the best QB ever, but it’s hard to compare across positions.  Is Brady better as a QB than Jim Brown as a RB, LT at linebacker, Jerry Rice at WR?

I think the two most dominant relative to their peers were Ruth and Gretzky.  Both did unprecedented things.
Yes, Brady is better than any other player at their respective positions in the NFL and has done unprecedented stuff. In my opinion, that's unquestionable.
I think Brady is the QB GOAT as well, but Brady's winning actually isn't unprecendented.  Otto Graham played for 10 years and won 7 Championships and was the runner-up the other 3 years he played.  He won 3 MVP's.  He led the league in passing 5 of his 10 seasons.  Obviously a much different sport in the early days, but the guy led his team to the championship game all 10 years he played.

And Roy is right, the positions in football make it so much different.  I mean Brown played 9 years and led the league in rushing 8 of those years.  His level of excellence and dominance was remained unmatched by other RB's. 

In 2019, USA Today put out their list of the greatest players in NFL history.  Jerry Rice was #1.  Brady was 2.  LT was 3 and Brown was 4.  So this notion that Brady is the unquestioned best player in NFL history just isn't all that clear or decided.  QB, yes, but player not so much.
Your contrarianism is incredible, Mo. In another thread you stated that QB was by far the most important position in football and Belichick was an awful GM because he had the best QB ever, that gave his team a +7 more wins per year.

But here, suddenly you are arguing Rice, who played a considerably less important position and Graham, who you admit isn't even the best QB ever as examples as to why Brady isn't the NFL GOAT.

Nick I had the exact same thought and chuckled. Tp

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2021, 03:53:10 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Relative to the sport it has to be Gretzky, but hockey is comparatively niche and recency bias is a hell of a drug, as they say, so I'm not surprised to see the voters being staggered like they are.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2021, 07:41:14 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I wouldn’t have Brady first.  He may be the best QB ever, but it’s hard to compare across positions.  Is Brady better as a QB than Jim Brown as a RB, LT at linebacker, Jerry Rice at WR?

I think the two most dominant relative to their peers were Ruth and Gretzky.  Both did unprecedented things.
Yes, Brady is better than any other player at their respective positions in the NFL and has done unprecedented stuff. In my opinion, that's unquestionable.
I think Brady is the QB GOAT as well, but Brady's winning actually isn't unprecendented.  Otto Graham played for 10 years and won 7 Championships and was the runner-up the other 3 years he played.  He won 3 MVP's.  He led the league in passing 5 of his 10 seasons.  Obviously a much different sport in the early days, but the guy led his team to the championship game all 10 years he played.

And Roy is right, the positions in football make it so much different.  I mean Brown played 9 years and led the league in rushing 8 of those years.  His level of excellence and dominance was remained unmatched by other RB's. 

In 2019, USA Today put out their list of the greatest players in NFL history.  Jerry Rice was #1.  Brady was 2.  LT was 3 and Brown was 4.  So this notion that Brady is the unquestioned best player in NFL history just isn't all that clear or decided.  QB, yes, but player not so much.
Your contrarianism is incredible, Mo. In another thread you stated that QB was by far the most important position in football and Belichick was an awful GM because he had the best QB ever, that gave his team a +7 more wins per year.

But here, suddenly you are arguing Rice, who played a considerably less important position and Graham, who you admit isn't even the best QB ever as examples as to why Brady isn't the NFL GOAT.

Nick I had the exact same thought and chuckled. Tp
Well, there is also the fact that one of the lists Mo cites was from 2019. Since the start of the 2019 season, Brady has thrown for about 10,000 more yards and for about 70 more TDs while winning another Super Bowl and another SB MVP and at 44 years old is a leading candidate for another regular season MVP award, because in 5 games this year he has already thrown for 1700 yards and 15 TDs with only two interceptions. 

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2021, 04:01:51 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I do not think we can truly compare across sports, let alone sports and generations, but yesterday Brady just threw over 400 yards and 5 TDs and he’s almost closer to 50 years old than 40. Think about that. His longevity is simply unprecedented, he now owns (or will soon own) all of the career passing records, and when he is done he will probably own those career passing records the rest of his life. He ought to get the nod over the other three for the longevity alone, particularly if he plays to age 50 like he’s said he might. Far more impressive than anything accomplished by the other GOATs of the Big Four Sports (clearly Michael, Wayne and probably Babe, but baseball is more than batting—this is coming from a pitcher—so can see an argument for others in MLB).

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2021, 04:09:39 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Stating Jerry Rice is the GOAT went out of vogue after the OT Super Bowl win against Atlanta. There’s no longer a debate after that game. It’s like Brady became an unstoppable computer that was literally perfect the second half. That he has won another two since, including an NFC championship, is incredible. If memory serves, Jerry barely it to 41 or 42, which was impressive at the time, but if memory serves he was a backup for the Raiders and/or Seahawks at the end. Last Super Bowl victory—the one against San Diego when Steve Young threw 6 TDs, right? Almost 30 years ago when he was in his early 30s. Was his Last Super Bowl appearance the one with the drubbing of Rich Gannon? If he was GOAT, how would we not know the answer to these questions with 100% certainly 20-30 years later? People will not have such questions about Brady in 20-30 years, if not 50 years. Anybody who saw that Super Bowl against Atlanta will never forget that football game.

Brady has more Super Bowl victories than any franchise does. Mic drop, really…
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 04:18:30 AM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2021, 04:26:35 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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It’s Gretzky.  I don’t even think it’s that close and I’m not even a hockey fan.  The guys holds 61 NHL records. 

He has the most goals in NHL history and has almost 100 more than the next guy under him.

As far as considering careers while under age 30 only, Gretzky is clearly greatest GOAT. But he won nothing after forcing a trade to LA (🤢), and did not maintain greatness well into his 30s like MJ and Brady did (and beyond 40 in Brady’s case). And Gretzky was in a sport that routinely sees top players make it past 40, at least relative to football and basketball (both tough on the knees).

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2021, 04:35:56 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I wouldn’t have Brady first.  He may be the best QB ever, but it’s hard to compare across positions.  Is Brady better as a QB than Jim Brown as a RB, LT at linebacker, Jerry Rice at WR?

I think the two most dominant relative to their peers were Ruth and Gretzky.  Both did unprecedented things.
Yes, Brady is better than any other player at their respective positions in the NFL and has done unprecedented stuff. In my opinion, that's unquestionable.
I think Brady is the QB GOAT as well, but Brady's winning actually isn't unprecendented.  Otto Graham played for 10 years and won 7 Championships and was the runner-up the other 3 years he played.  He won 3 MVP's.  He led the league in passing 5 of his 10 seasons.  Obviously a much different sport in the early days, but the guy led his team to the championship game all 10 years he played.

When someone brings up Otto Graham to discount Brady in the 2020s, this is what comes to mind for everyone else:


Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2021, 06:06:57 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I wouldn’t have Brady first.  He may be the best QB ever, but it’s hard to compare across positions.  Is Brady better as a QB than Jim Brown as a RB, LT at linebacker, Jerry Rice at WR?

I think the two most dominant relative to their peers were Ruth and Gretzky.  Both did unprecedented things.
Yes, Brady is better than any other player at their respective positions in the NFL and has done unprecedented stuff. In my opinion, that's unquestionable.
I think Brady is the QB GOAT as well, but Brady's winning actually isn't unprecendented.  Otto Graham played for 10 years and won 7 Championships and was the runner-up the other 3 years he played.  He won 3 MVP's.  He led the league in passing 5 of his 10 seasons.  Obviously a much different sport in the early days, but the guy led his team to the championship game all 10 years he played.

When someone brings up Otto Graham to discount Brady in the 2020s, this is what comes to mind for everyone else:


So playing half his career in an expansion league that signed the best talent without any drafts in place along with the full playoffs being just 2 games didn't impress?

Browns were allowed to buy players and stockpile talent even stealing NFL talent. We can't consider the early part of his career competition.

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2021, 06:19:46 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Ruth.

With Gretzky a close second.

Jordan a clear third.

Brady a distant fourth.
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Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2021, 07:58:13 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Ruth.

With Gretzky a close second.

Jordan a clear third.

Brady a distant fourth.

 ^ This is my list , no need to re type it

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2021, 08:19:35 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I wouldn’t have Brady first.  He may be the best QB ever, but it’s hard to compare across positions.  Is Brady better as a QB than Jim Brown as a RB, LT at linebacker, Jerry Rice at WR?

I think the two most dominant relative to their peers were Ruth and Gretzky.  Both did unprecedented things.
Yes, Brady is better than any other player at their respective positions in the NFL and has done unprecedented stuff. In my opinion, that's unquestionable.
I think Brady is the QB GOAT as well, but Brady's winning actually isn't unprecendented.  Otto Graham played for 10 years and won 7 Championships and was the runner-up the other 3 years he played.  He won 3 MVP's.  He led the league in passing 5 of his 10 seasons.  Obviously a much different sport in the early days, but the guy led his team to the championship game all 10 years he played.

When someone brings up Otto Graham to discount Brady in the 2020s, this is what comes to mind for everyone else:


I see so championships in the 50's don't count.  So how many of the Celtics championships are we removing?  I guess Ruth can't even be included in discussions about these things since his last season was 1935.  When discussing the greatest ever, you have to account for differences in eras or it would always be the current guy in every sport.  And then when that guy ages out it would be the new current guy.  And on and on. 

All I said was Brady's winning wasn't unprecedented from the QB position as Otto Graham's team finished 1st or 2nd every single year of his decade long career.  You can't just ignore that fact when discussing the history of the NFL.  Brady is clearly the best QB ever and it isn't close, but Rice is clearly the best WR and it isn't close, Brown is clearly the best RB and it isn't close, and LT is clearly the best defensive player (all positions) and it isn't close.  The positions in football are just so different that it isn't quite as black and white as it is for basketball or position players in baseball (pitchers are obviously a different animal) and to a lesser extent hockey players (goaltenders are obviously very different, but defenders are also different than forwards). 
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Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2021, 08:31:25 AM »

Offline boscel33

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Babe is the GOAT OF GOATs

Revolutionized the game after going 94-46 with a 2.28 era as a pitcher.

I didn’t watch much hockey in Gretzky’s era — was he really better than Bobby Orr?

No he wasn't.  Orr did things as a defenseman that no one had ever done.  Gretzky, although great, was really just a scorer.  He didn't play D, He didn't check, he didn't fight, he hung out and let some one pass him the puck so he could score.  Heck, if I have to take a player off of those Edmonton teams, I might go Messier.  He was a complete player.

That said, I go Babe, Jordan, Brady, Gretzky, but then I replace Jordan with Russell too.
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Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2021, 08:45:52 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Babe is the GOAT OF GOATs

Revolutionized the game after going 94-46 with a 2.28 era as a pitcher.

I didn’t watch much hockey in Gretzky’s era — was he really better than Bobby Orr?

No he wasn't.  Orr did things as a defenseman that no one had ever done.  Gretzky, although great, was really just a scorer.  He didn't play D, He didn't check, he didn't fight, he hung out and let some one pass him the puck so he could score.  Heck, if I have to take a player off of those Edmonton teams, I might go Messier.  He was a complete player.

That said, I go Babe, Jordan, Brady, Gretzky, but then I replace Jordan with Russell too.

You don’t watch much hockey, I take it.  He was a heck of a lot more than a finisher.  He’s both the best scorer and best passer in NHL history.  He was a better creator than he was a scorer.

For perspective, he has more assists than any other player has points (goals and assists combined).  He has 960 more points than Messier, and Messier is #3 all-time.

Gretzky is like Durant and Magic combined.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 08:50:54 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2021, 09:30:42 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Two absolute legends, and two fixtures of the mount Rushmore, but I think you'd be hard pressed to pick Orr over Gretzky if either one appeared reincarnated today.

Not diminishing his accomplishments (of which there are many), just stating my opinion.

Brady is clearly the best QB ever and it isn't close, but Rice is clearly the best WR and it isn't close, Brown is clearly the best RB and it isn't close, and LT is clearly the best defensive player (all positions) and it isn't close.  The positions in football are just so different that it isn't quite as black and white as it is for basketball or position players in baseball (pitchers are obviously a different animal) and to a lesser extent hockey players (goaltenders are obviously very different, but defenders are also different than forwards).

I think this is a really good point, and a why I find it difficult to rank Brady particularly in this case, or cross-rank sports in general
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Who is The Greatest G.O.A.T?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2021, 09:31:30 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Babe is the GOAT OF GOATs

Revolutionized the game after going 94-46 with a 2.28 era as a pitcher.

I didn’t watch much hockey in Gretzky’s era — was he really better than Bobby Orr?

No he wasn't.  Orr did things as a defenseman that no one had ever done.  Gretzky, although great, was really just a scorer.  He didn't play D, He didn't check, he didn't fight, he hung out and let some one pass him the puck so he could score.  Heck, if I have to take a player off of those Edmonton teams, I might go Messier.  He was a complete player.

That said, I go Babe, Jordan, Brady, Gretzky, but then I replace Jordan with Russell too.

You don’t watch much hockey, I take it.  He was a heck of a lot more than a finisher.  He’s both the best scorer and best passer in NHL history.  He was a better creator than he was a scorer.

For perspective, he has more assists than any other player has points (goals and assists combined).  He has 960 more points than Messier, and Messier is #3 all-time.

Gretzky is like Durant and Magic combined.
If you count the WHA, Howe actually scored more goals than Gretzky and they both led the NHL in goals scored 5 times.  Howe was no where near the passer Gretzky was, but did still lead the league in assists 3 times.  For much of Howe's career the NHL also played less games than they did during Gretzky's prime.  I don't think Orr played long enough to really be in that sort of consideration, but he was pretty clearly the best defensivemen the NHL has had.  Given they require different skills, I could see where someone might argue for Orr.

Gretzky is the best player ever, but there are arguments for Howe or Orr given their stats and/or position.  And that doesn't even get into how do you rate a goaltender compared to a player.  Does Hasek, Roy, or Brodeur not compare to Gretzky, Howe, or Orr?  What about an older player like Plante who anchored 5 consecutive championships winning the Vezina in all 5 of those seasons (and who also picked up a league MVP later on - Hasek has 2 MVP's)?

That is the difficulty with doing this for basically any team sport that is not basketball.  The positions just make it so much harder. 
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