Author Topic: Simone Biles  (Read 44190 times)

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Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2021, 12:11:37 PM »

Offline Moranis

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It is totally different quitting in an individual sport than a team sport, but even someone like Osaka got crucified for pulling out of the French Open.  Had Biles quit Thursday in the individual competition, I don't think it is as big a deal as quitting in the middle of the team competition.  Even pulling out before it started wouldn't have been as bad because the US could have replaced her and still had 4 competitors to choose from.  The US might have lost to Russia anyway, but Biles pulling out when she did assured that fate and it absolutely should serve as a knock on her legacy.  And if she wasn't in the right head space, she did the right thing, but sometimes doing the right thing still has negative consequences that you must account for.
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Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2021, 12:18:06 PM »

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Honest question - and I am trying not to take in everybody's opinion - if Biles lands her first vault, do you think she quits?

On a side note, Larisa Latynina is obviously the goat. As a Cs fan, if you believe Russell is the best ever, then it would be hypocritical to say that Latynina isn't.

Biles quit because she was mid-air and couldn’t control her body, and thus she didn’t land the vault.  If she didn’t have that problem, she presumably would’ve landed, but missing the landing was the symptom of why she quit, not the cause.

Okay, that's what we are hearing, so I can't dispute it. How about if the Americans started with, say, uneven bars rather than possibly the most dangerous [looking] event in sports?

It's really impossible to say, isn't it?  Maybe she'd have been able to make it through the uneven bars without issue, maybe not.  Not hard to imagine that spinning around and flinging yourself between bars would have triggered the same physiological response.  It's also believable that it wouldn't have.

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2021, 01:38:13 PM »

Offline CptZoogs

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Honest question - and I am trying to take in everybody's opinion - if Biles lands her first vault, do you think she quits?

On a side note, Larisa Latynina is obviously the goat. As a Cs fan, if you believe Russell is the best ever, then it would be hypocritical to say that Latynina isn't.

It is not at all obvious.  These olympians don't just come out of storage every 4 years.  They compete on a world stage year after year, whether you pay attention or not.  To label someone best ever based only on olympic results is like claiming Eli Manning is better than Aaron Rogers because of their superbowl records.  It's asinine.  Good luck finding anyone in the gymnastics community outside of Russia that would argue against Bile's case.

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2021, 01:42:29 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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Does anyone still feel that Simone Biles "owes" anything to the U.S.A. and U.S.A gymnastics after knowing that she was abused by Larry Nassar, a man protected by U.S.A gymnastics for years?

I feel that the criticism that she is getting is way off. This isn't Tuuka leaving in the playoffs because of his daughter.... This is much more emotionally loaded.

I'd tell these perps to pound sand on the biggest stage. I think she's taking the classy road.

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2021, 02:19:42 PM »

Offline RJ87

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She is a victim of sexual assault, who has been very candid about the difficulties of the recovery/treatment process. She been operating in an intensely stressful environment since she was a child.  She gets some grace from me regardless of the timing.

Would anyone be questioning her is she had said she sprained her ankle instead of being honest with her need to manage her mental health?  Frankly I think her legacy should be enhanced by her honesty and candor under such intense scrutiny.

This is where I am with it. I keep seeing posters trying to compare her to Aaron Rodgers or Ben Simmons. As soon as those guys become the face of a sport with a governing body that actively and purposely turned a blind eye to their abuse, the comparisons would be more apt.

Would it have been more ideal if she withdrew earlier? Of course, but trauma and mental health issues aren't linear. Sometimes, things pop up in the worst possible moments. I know I'm not an athlete, but I was dealing with some intense personal stuff a few years ago, but I was still going to work everyday and trying to give it my all. Then one day, I had a severe panic attack at my desk. I had to get candid with my boss really quickly. I don't believe that moment made me less of a person or a worker, I was showing up until I was literally unable to perform my job.

I think Simone showed courage in recognizing that she wasn't right mentally. That's a scary realization in and of itself.
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Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2021, 02:28:00 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Does anyone still feel that Simone Biles "owes" anything to the U.S.A. and U.S.A gymnastics after knowing that she was abused by Larry Nassar, a man protected by U.S.A gymnastics for years?

I feel that the criticism that she is getting is way off. This isn't Tuuka leaving in the playoffs because of his daughter.... This is much more emotionally loaded.

I'd tell these perps to pound sand on the biggest stage. I think she's taking the classy road.

A big whatever on her letting let the USA down. She has worked extremely hard to reach the very top of her sport and she doesn't out anybody anything, but I generally agree with Moranis' response above. I don't think people have as much of a problem with Biles not competing, it's just the timing of it all. She put a lot of pressure on her three teammates, who all did a phenomenal job to pull out the Silver medal.

Let's also not forget about: Kara Eaker, LeAnne Wong, Kayla DiCello and Emma Malabuyo. These four were the alternates for the women's team and one of them lost out on a chance to perform on the biggest stage because Biles gave up.

I'm also not going to pretend that Biles was just a total disaster. Even though she wasn't perfect, she still was the #1 qualifier in the all-around and also qualified for every individual event. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but she definitely let her team down (again, my only issue). At least she's not going to continue in the individual all-around - that would have been a really bad look.


Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2021, 02:40:22 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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She is a victim of sexual assault, who has been very candid about the difficulties of the recovery/treatment process. She been operating in an intensely stressful environment since she was a child.  She gets some grace from me regardless of the timing.

Would anyone be questioning her is she had said she sprained her ankle instead of being honest with her need to manage her mental health?  Frankly I think her legacy should be enhanced by her honesty and candor under such intense scrutiny.

I'll go along with it being a mental health issue even though I don't know Simone Biles anywhere near well enough to make that claim.   The pieces of knowledge we have about her suggest that PTSD is a strong possibility.  What she has shared about her childhood would be enough to suggest traumatic events occurred and what she has shared about abuse from Larry Nasser affirms the possibility of PTSD.  We also know that PTSD manifests in strange ways -- often inconsistently -- and often emerges symptomatically at strange times, in unexpected ways, and at variable life intervals often in life transitions.   

It is also possible that her intensive, perhaps "obsessive", investment in perfecting her gymnastic skills are a manifestation of mental health issues.  Though it seems from the outside that her greatness is evidence of her ability to manage/ handle life, it may in fact be a sometimes healthy, sometimes unhealthy way that she's dealt with (or avoided) stress. 

There is no doubt in my mind that her leaving the competition will impact her legacy.  I think that this thread alone proves that.  Since GOAT designations are always at least somewhat subjective there will always be someone who views her current actions as a stain on her career.  Of course, not everyone will feel that way.  My opinion is that she is probably in the midst of a life transition that is creating new stressors and is perhaps generating thoughts/feelings (or reminiscent thoughts/feelings) that may have been tucked away or suppressed till now. 

Her capacity for self-awareness and her ability to manage stress in healthy ways are things I hope she does well in her next phase of life.  The fact that current stress may have impacted her ability to sustain the perfection that she has quite obviously striven for (and generally achieved) may very well be something she's had no context for preparing for.  It may be that she was thoroughly convinced that she would work it through while competing and, for once, she wasn't able to.   A lack of compassion for her or the suggestion that she is weak is just unnecessary -- but it's sports talk and a lot of it is unnecessary. 

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2021, 03:48:58 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Honest question - and I am trying to take in everybody's opinion - if Biles lands her first vault, do you think she quits?

On a side note, Larisa Latynina is obviously the goat. As a Cs fan, if you believe Russell is the best ever, then it would be hypocritical to say that Latynina isn't.

It is not at all obvious.  These olympians don't just come out of storage every 4 years.  They compete on a world stage year after year, whether you pay attention or not.  To label someone best ever based only on olympic results is like claiming Eli Manning is better than Aaron Rogers because of their superbowl records.  It's asinine.  Good luck finding anyone in the gymnastics community outside of Russia that would argue against Bile's case.
Latynina didn't only compete in the Olympics though.  She also has 9 gold medals at the World Championships to go along with her 9 gold medals in the Olympics.  She has 4 more silver and 1 bronze in the World championships to go along with her 5 silver and 4 bronze in the Olympics.  She has 7, 6, and 1 in the European championships as well.  And when Larisa competed the World Championships and European Championships were every 4 years, just like the Olympics.  Simone had the benefit of having them every non-Olympic year (so 3 times as many). 

There is no question at all Larisa Latynina is the greatest female gymnast of all time.  It isn't close.

Also, as an aside, Larisa competed at the 1958 World Championships while she was pregnant.  Her daughter was born 5 months after the competition.  At those World Championships, she led the Soviet team to the Gold Medal, won the All Around Gold, won the gold medal on 3 apparatus (Vault, Uneven Bars, Balance Beam), and took silver on the floor exercise.  She was 3-4 months pregnant and dominated the world competition.  She told no one she was pregnant so they wouldn't stop her from competing.     
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Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2021, 04:10:27 PM »

Offline blink

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I support her decision, however, I think she should not have waited until the last moment to make it.  It took courage to withdraw but I don't she is a hero to do so. She was contemplating retirement at one point earlier in the year, decided she wanted to compete.  If you're not fully engaged do the right thing  and not wait until the last minute.

the bolded part sums up my complex feelings about this whole thing.  I have had panic and anxiety issues, and I know how debilitating they can be, but I am also turned off a bit by the pendulum swinging so far in the praise for her.  Saying that Biles stepping away from the event 'is the greatest thing she has ever done' direction.  I had to step away from my work for a while due to anxiety and depression.  I certainly wasn't a hero because of it.  Part of me is glad she got to step away, part of me thinks she should have done that before the olympics, part of me thinks that she isn't a hero for stepping away from her team.  I def think the over-saturation of social media probably made her situation worse.

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2021, 04:17:43 PM »

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I support her decision, however, I think she should not have waited until the last moment to make it.  It took courage to withdraw but I don't she is a hero to do so. She was contemplating retirement at one point earlier in the year, decided she wanted to compete.  If you're not fully engaged do the right thing  and not wait until the last minute.

the bolded part sums up my complex feelings about this whole thing.  I have had panic and anxiety issues, and I know how debilitating they can be, but I am also turned off a bit by the pendulum swinging so far in the praise for her.  Saying that Biles stepping away from the event 'is the greatest thing she has ever done' direction.  I had to step away from my work for a while due to anxiety and depression.  I certainly wasn't a hero because of it.  Part of me is glad she got to step away, part of me thinks she should have done that before the olympics, part of me thinks that she isn't a hero for stepping away from her team.  I def think the over-saturation of social media probably made her situation worse.

I don’t know why being hero or being a failure needs to be discussed at all.  Maybe she’s neither. Or maybe like most people she’s not characterized solely by one or the other but rather has moments that run the gamut.  I think it’s ok that she’s just human without having to over idealize or under appreciate her.

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2021, 04:25:15 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Does anyone still feel that Simone Biles "owes" anything to the U.S.A. and U.S.A gymnastics after knowing that she was abused by Larry Nassar, a man protected by U.S.A gymnastics for years?

I feel that the criticism that she is getting is way off. This isn't Tuuka leaving in the playoffs because of his daughter.... This is much more emotionally loaded.

I'd tell these perps to pound sand on the biggest stage. I think she's taking the classy road.

A big whatever on her letting let the USA down. She has worked extremely hard to reach the very top of her sport and she doesn't out anybody anything, but I generally agree with Moranis' response above. I don't think people have as much of a problem with Biles not competing, it's just the timing of it all. She put a lot of pressure on her three teammates, who all did a phenomenal job to pull out the Silver medal.

Let's also not forget about: Kara Eaker, LeAnne Wong, Kayla DiCello and Emma Malabuyo. These four were the alternates for the women's team and one of them lost out on a chance to perform on the biggest stage because Biles gave up.

I'm also not going to pretend that Biles was just a total disaster. Even though she wasn't perfect, she still was the #1 qualifier in the all-around and also qualified for every individual event. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but she definitely let her team down (again, my only issue). At least she's not going to continue in the individual all-around - that would have been a really bad look.
Has she withdrawn completely?  Last I read, she might still try to compete in the individual events next week. 

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2021, 04:30:48 PM »

Offline blink

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I support her decision, however, I think she should not have waited until the last moment to make it.  It took courage to withdraw but I don't she is a hero to do so. She was contemplating retirement at one point earlier in the year, decided she wanted to compete.  If you're not fully engaged do the right thing  and not wait until the last minute.

the bolded part sums up my complex feelings about this whole thing.  I have had panic and anxiety issues, and I know how debilitating they can be, but I am also turned off a bit by the pendulum swinging so far in the praise for her.  Saying that Biles stepping away from the event 'is the greatest thing she has ever done' direction.  I had to step away from my work for a while due to anxiety and depression.  I certainly wasn't a hero because of it.  Part of me is glad she got to step away, part of me thinks she should have done that before the olympics, part of me thinks that she isn't a hero for stepping away from her team.  I def think the over-saturation of social media probably made her situation worse.

I don’t know why being hero or being a failure needs to be discussed at all.  Maybe she’s neither. Or maybe like most people she’s not characterized solely by one or the other but rather has moments that run the gamut.  I think it’s ok that she’s just human without having to over idealize or under appreciate her.

I agree 100% with the bolded.  I am not saying she is a hero or a failure.  But if you watch any olympic coverage that isn't how it is portrayed.  People are being interviewed and saying that her stepping away was the greatest thing that she ever did, ever.  I just don't agree with that.  If you have anxiety / depression issues you can't really control when it happens, so she is obviously just reacting at the time to something bad, and she made the best decision she could make for herself at the time.  But like Moranis said 'sometimes doing the right thing still has negative consequences that you must account for.'  I am probably not explaining very well how I feel about this as it is pretty nuanced. 

I hope she gets the help she needs.


Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2021, 04:34:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Lots of pro and amateur athletes bowed out of team competition over the last 2 years because of Covid concerns and that seemingly was okay. Didn't hear a lot of complaining about it. Those players have suffered not at all because of it.

A young woman suffering from the effects of mental illness, pulls out of a team competition and is vilified. If she had a diabetic issue, or ligament issue, or heart issue, or some other physical issue, that would be seen as okay. But because mental illness is invisible(can't be seen in an x-ray, CAT scan, MRI, etc.) and the affects almost entirely unseen as well, that isn't acceptable.

Completely disagree with anyone that is castigating her for doing what was in her best mental health, self interests.

How would any of you feel if she "played through" this, couldn't take the immense pressure anymore and so committed suicide? Guess she would really be letting her team down then, huh?

Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2021, 05:14:11 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lots of pro and amateur athletes bowed out of team competition over the last 2 years because of Covid concerns and that seemingly was okay. Didn't hear a lot of complaining about it. Those players have suffered not at all because of it.

A young woman suffering from the effects of mental illness, pulls out of a team competition and is vilified. If she had a diabetic issue, or ligament issue, or heart issue, or some other physical issue, that would be seen as okay. But because mental illness is invisible(can't be seen in an x-ray, CAT scan, MRI, etc.) and the affects almost entirely unseen as well, that isn't acceptable.

Completely disagree with anyone that is castigating her for doing what was in her best mental health, self interests.

How would any of you feel if she "played through" this, couldn't take the immense pressure anymore and so committed suicide? Guess she would really be letting her team down then, huh?
not competing before a game starts is no where near the same thing as pulling out of an active competition leaving your team in the lurch in the middle of a contest.  The only thing I can think of that is comparable was when Vontae Davis retired from the NFL at half time.  Davis got lambasted and heavily criticized for that because he left his team in a bind by leaving mid-game.  And he retired because well read it yourself, but essentially he no longer was mentally able to do the job.  https://twitter.com/NFL/status/1041456780818042880/photo/1
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Re: Simon Biles
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2021, 05:42:13 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Lots of pro and amateur athletes bowed out of team competition over the last 2 years because of Covid concerns and that seemingly was okay. Didn't hear a lot of complaining about it. Those players have suffered not at all because of it.

A young woman suffering from the effects of mental illness, pulls out of a team competition and is vilified. If she had a diabetic issue, or ligament issue, or heart issue, or some other physical issue, that would be seen as okay. But because mental illness is invisible(can't be seen in an x-ray, CAT scan, MRI, etc.) and the affects almost entirely unseen as well, that isn't acceptable.

Completely disagree with anyone that is castigating her for doing what was in her best mental health, self interests.

How would any of you feel if she "played through" this, couldn't take the immense pressure anymore and so committed suicide? Guess she would really be letting her team down then, huh?
not competing before a game starts is no where near the same thing as pulling out of an active competition leaving your team in the lurch in the middle of a contest.  The only thing I can think of that is comparable was when Vontae Davis retired from the NFL at half time.  Davis got lambasted and heavily criticized for that because he left his team in a bind by leaving mid-game.  And he retired because well read it yourself, but essentially he no longer was mentally able to do the job.  https://twitter.com/NFL/status/1041456780818042880/photo/1

You just refuse to credit mental health on the same level as physical health. Why is that? If she had snapped her ankle would you be typing the same opinion?