Simone Biles

[Moranis]

Why are we even having this conversation? Who started it? Whoever did should apologize to Simone Biles.

What? Moranis is the one who has more than proven his point. Before this argument, I was pretty sure Latynina was the best gymnast ever. But now, I am more than certain this is the case.

Latynina > Biles...not even close. Thanks Moranis!

Stop comparing checkers to chess or ballet to gymnastics or hearsay to video evidence.

TP and agree.

We can't look at the stats because there exists an uneven playing field. In 1950, there were 2.5 billion people on earth. That number has more than tripled. So how should we account for this if we actually want to compare?

What about advances in technology? Why should the current day athlete be discounted for his/her time in the gym and eating avocado ice cream when guys like Ruth waddled/rolled around the bases?

If we look at the two videos of SB and LL, is it clear that one is better than the other?

So we should just disregard what the old guys did.  Is Jim Thorpe not a great athlete because he doesn't measure up to the modern athlete?

Do the Celtics championships in the 60's not count because there were only 8 or 9 teams and the C's only had to win 8 playoff games to win the title most of those years?  I guess we should just put an * by them since they clearly don't count.

You can't do what you are doing or there is no point in even keeping score or records.  I mean Lebron is clearly a more gifted athlete than Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, etc. so why isn't he the unquestioned greatest of all time?  If being a better athlete is how we determine those things, then there is no debate. 

Tom Brady is clearly not the best athlete at his position so he can't be the greatest QB ever.  Has to be Mahomes, Rodgers, or Lamar Jackson.  I mean since being a better athlete makes you greater.

I mean that is silly when you start translating it to other things.

You can certainly compare them, as you can compare anything else. I'm stating that the comparison becomes less accurate as the time gap expands.

In order to compare stats from different generations, there's a lot of subjective analysis. We can argue all day long, but no one is going to have the "right" answer just because they googled statistics. One's opinion is that LL is better than SB because of stats (same with Babe Ruth). Stats help paint a picture, but they're just one component.

Latynina didn't lose an All Around competition starting in 56 and ending at the 64 Olympics.  That includes 2 Olympics, 2 World Championships, and 2 European Championships (which at the time were basically the same thing as the other two).  In 64 and 65 she took silver to the second most decorated female Olympic gymnast of all time.  That is the most dominant run in the sport's history. 

[Big333223]

Why are we even having this conversation? Who started it? Whoever did should apologize to Simone Biles.

What? Moranis is the one who has more than proven his point. Before this argument, I was pretty sure Latynina was the best gymnast ever. But now, I am more than certain this is the case.

Latynina > Biles...not even close. Thanks Moranis!

Stop comparing checkers to chess or ballet to gymnastics or hearsay to video evidence.

TP and agree.

We can't look at the stats because there exists an uneven playing field. In 1950, there were 2.5 billion people on earth. That number has more than tripled. So how should we account for this if we actually want to compare?

What about advances in technology? Why should the current day athlete be discounted for his/her time in the gym and eating avocado ice cream when guys like Ruth waddled/rolled around the bases?

If we look at the two videos of SB and LL, is it clear that one is better than the other?

So we should just disregard what the old guys did.  Is Jim Thorpe not a great athlete because he doesn't measure up to the modern athlete?

Do the Celtics championships in the 60's not count because there were only 8 or 9 teams and the C's only had to win 8 playoff games to win the title most of those years?  I guess we should just put an * by them since they clearly don't count.

You can't do what you are doing or there is no point in even keeping score or records.  I mean Lebron is clearly a more gifted athlete than Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, etc. so why isn't he the unquestioned greatest of all time?  If being a better athlete is how we determine those things, then there is no debate. 

Tom Brady is clearly not the best athlete at his position so he can't be the greatest QB ever.  Has to be Mahomes, Rodgers, or Lamar Jackson.  I mean since being a better athlete makes you greater.

I mean that is silly when you start translating it to other things.

You can certainly compare them, as you can compare anything else. I'm stating that the comparison becomes less accurate as the time gap expands.

In order to compare stats from different generations, there's a lot of subjective analysis. We can argue all day long, but no one is going to have the "right" answer just because they googled statistics. One's opinion is that LL is better than SB because of stats (same with Babe Ruth). Stats help paint a picture, but they're just one component.

Latynina didn't lose an All Around competition starting in 56 and ending at the 64 Olympics.  That includes 2 Olympics, 2 World Championships, and 2 European Championships (which at the time were basically the same thing as the other two).  In 64 and 65 she took silver to the second most decorated female Olympic gymnast of all time.  That is the most dominant run in the sport's history.

I know very very little about gymnastics but in reading through this thread it seems contradictory that you dock Biles' medal count because she has had "more chances at medals" with the increased frequency of World Championships but credit Latynina for her total medal count even though she had a much longer career than Biles has had so far, and thus, more chances at medals.

Again, I don't know anything about gymnastics, but that's just faulty logic.

[Roy H.]

I know very very little about gymnastics but in reading through this thread it seems contradictory that you dock Biles' medal count because she has had "more chances at medals" with the increased frequency of World Championships but credit Latynina for her total medal count even though she had a much longer career than Biles has had so far, and thus, more chances at medals.

I don’t think it’s contradictory.  People are saying Biles, right now, is the GOAT.  That includes Biles herself.  That being the case, her current career should be compared to the entire career of others.

[Moranis]

Why are we even having this conversation? Who started it? Whoever did should apologize to Simone Biles.

What? Moranis is the one who has more than proven his point. Before this argument, I was pretty sure Latynina was the best gymnast ever. But now, I am more than certain this is the case.

Latynina > Biles...not even close. Thanks Moranis!

Stop comparing checkers to chess or ballet to gymnastics or hearsay to video evidence.

TP and agree.

We can't look at the stats because there exists an uneven playing field. In 1950, there were 2.5 billion people on earth. That number has more than tripled. So how should we account for this if we actually want to compare?

What about advances in technology? Why should the current day athlete be discounted for his/her time in the gym and eating avocado ice cream when guys like Ruth waddled/rolled around the bases?

If we look at the two videos of SB and LL, is it clear that one is better than the other?

So we should just disregard what the old guys did.  Is Jim Thorpe not a great athlete because he doesn't measure up to the modern athlete?

Do the Celtics championships in the 60's not count because there were only 8 or 9 teams and the C's only had to win 8 playoff games to win the title most of those years?  I guess we should just put an * by them since they clearly don't count.

You can't do what you are doing or there is no point in even keeping score or records.  I mean Lebron is clearly a more gifted athlete than Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, etc. so why isn't he the unquestioned greatest of all time?  If being a better athlete is how we determine those things, then there is no debate. 

Tom Brady is clearly not the best athlete at his position so he can't be the greatest QB ever.  Has to be Mahomes, Rodgers, or Lamar Jackson.  I mean since being a better athlete makes you greater.

I mean that is silly when you start translating it to other things.

You can certainly compare them, as you can compare anything else. I'm stating that the comparison becomes less accurate as the time gap expands.

In order to compare stats from different generations, there's a lot of subjective analysis. We can argue all day long, but no one is going to have the "right" answer just because they googled statistics. One's opinion is that LL is better than SB because of stats (same with Babe Ruth). Stats help paint a picture, but they're just one component.

Latynina didn't lose an All Around competition starting in 56 and ending at the 64 Olympics.  That includes 2 Olympics, 2 World Championships, and 2 European Championships (which at the time were basically the same thing as the other two).  In 64 and 65 she took silver to the second most decorated female Olympic gymnast of all time.  That is the most dominant run in the sport's history.

I know very very little about gymnastics but in reading through this thread it seems contradictory that you dock Biles' medal count because she has had "more chances at medals" with the increased frequency of World Championships but credit Latynina for her total medal count even though she had a much longer career than Biles has had so far, and thus, more chances at medals.

Again, I don't know anything about gymnastics, but that's just faulty logic.

Not at all.  Athletes are most likely to win when they are at their prime.  LL didn't have as many opportunities in her prime to win medals because there weren't events.

And as Roy says, if people are already calling Biles the GOAT (including herself), then it is based on the entirety of her career right now.  Not on what she might do in the future.  And right now, she doesn't measure up to Latynina. 

And let's remember she basically retired once already.  It seems fairly likely at this point she isn't going to compete again in the future also.

[Big333223]

I don’t think it’s contradictory.  People are saying Biles, right now, is the GOAT.  That includes Biles herself.  That being the case, her current career should be compared to the entire career of others.

I agree. Moranis isn't doing that. He's contextualizing one career and refusing to do the same for the other. So Biles suffers from having more world championships opportunities and Biles also suffers from Latynina having more Olympic opportunities.

Again, I don't have a horse in this race. It just seems pretty clear that the argument Moranis is making is broken.

And as Roy says, if people are already calling Biles the GOAT (including herself), then it is based on the entirety of her career right now.  Not on what she might do in the future.  And right now, she doesn't measure up to Latynina.

If all you're going by is medal count (and that seems to be what you're going on), she does measure up.

[Moranis]

I don’t think it’s contradictory.  People are saying Biles, right now, is the GOAT.  That includes Biles herself.  That being the case, her current career should be compared to the entire career of others.

I agree. Moranis isn't doing that. He's contextualizing one career and refusing to do the same for the other. So Biles suffers from having more world championships opportunities and Biles also suffers from Latynina having more Olympic opportunities.

Again, I don't have a horse in this race. It just seems pretty clear that the argument Moranis is making is broken.

Then you don't actually understand the argument.

And as Roy says, if people are already calling Biles the GOAT (including herself), then it is based on the entirety of her career right now.  Not on what she might do in the future.  And right now, she doesn't measure up to Latynina.

If all you're going by is medal count (and that seems to be what you're going on), she does measure up.

Only because she had more WC opportunities.  As I said, you don't understand the argument.

[Neurotic Guy]

There are 3 olympians who, when I watched them (and to this day), struck me as the greatest of all time. Of course, i use a numbskull’s criteria - the eye test when I know very little about the sports and next to nothing about historic competitors. Nonetheless both the beauty and the absurdity of GOAT discussions are that the beholder gets to decide.

Greg Louganis, Edwin Moses, and Usain Bolt.

[GetLucky]

After Djokovic drops out of his mixed doubles competition (completely stranding his doubles partner) because of an “injury” after he had a terrible singles performance and failed to medal, there is relatively little outrage compared to when Biles dropped out.  Maybe he’s doing it to be “woke” and stay relevant.

(This post is sarcastic and referencing one made by another poster earlier in this thread.)

[Big333223]

I don’t think it’s contradictory.  People are saying Biles, right now, is the GOAT.  That includes Biles herself.  That being the case, her current career should be compared to the entire career of others.

I agree. Moranis isn't doing that. He's contextualizing one career and refusing to do the same for the other. So Biles suffers from having more world championships opportunities and Biles also suffers from Latynina having more Olympic opportunities.

Again, I don't have a horse in this race. It just seems pretty clear that the argument Moranis is making is broken.

Then you don't actually understand the argument.

And as Roy says, if people are already calling Biles the GOAT (including herself), then it is based on the entirety of her career right now.  Not on what she might do in the future.  And right now, she doesn't measure up to Latynina.

If all you're going by is medal count (and that seems to be what you're going on), she does measure up.

Only because she had more WC opportunities.  As I said, you don't understand the argument.

It sounds more like you don't understand your own argument lol

[gouki88]

After Djokovic drops out of his mixed doubles competition (completely stranding his doubles partner) because of an “injury” after he had a terrible singles performance and failed to medal, there is relatively little outrage compared to when Biles dropped out.  Maybe he’s doing it to be “woke” and stay relevant.

(This post is sarcastic and referencing one made by another poster earlier in this thread.)

You forgot to mention their very relevant, and uncontrollable, differences.

[ozgod]

So when you are mentally stressed,  you are more likely to make mistakes.  In the basketball example, maybe you mistakes free throw or a defensive rotation.

When you launch your body through the air what physical damage can you do to yourself if you miss?

This is what makes it different to me. In a way she dropped herself rather than letting a coach or doctor drop her. If you're losing your spatial awareness in the air and could break your neck then that's pretty dangerous. If you had to choose between people calling you a quitter vs going through the next 60 years of life in a wheelchair I think you'd follow the sticks and stones philosophy 

That said, I don't think it's anything to be celebrated. Respected, certainly, as is her, and any person's right, to choose what is best for themselves. People are entitled to withdraw for any reason. But obviously NBC lost a huge drawcard so they had to put lipstick on a pig somehow. That's probably where more of the backlash is coming from.

[Celtics4ever]

People are saying Biles, right now, is the GOAT.  That includes Biles herself.

Probably the same crowd that thinks LeBron is the GOAT.   You don't think withdrawing/quitting with hurt the GOAT stuff?   Because it has hurt LeBron.

[Roy H.]

She’s going to compete in balance beam.  Hopefully she performs well.

[Silas]

There are 3 olympians who, when I watched them (and to this day), struck me as the greatest of all time. Of course, i use a numbskull’s criteria - the eye test when I know very little about the sports and next to nothing about historic competitors. Nonetheless both the beauty and the absurdity of GOAT discussions are that the beholder gets to decide.

Greg Louganis, Edwin Moses, and Usain Bolt.

How about Michael Phelps?

[Celtics4ever]

I wish her luck as well.