2020 Historical Draft: WCF...#1 Utah vs #2 Denver

[Somebody]

Duncan would've been a centre on any team without David Robinson. I disagree with the belief that Shaq would ravage 2002 Duncan, the 2002 playoffs had Duncan going toe to toe with Shaq (Robinson was injured for the first two games and played sporadically in the next three) and putting up a monster series.

What about on a team with Rasho Nesterovic?  Or one with Nazr Mohammed?  Or one with Tiago Splitter?

Those first two guys were rostered at center alongside Duncan not because they were talented basketball players.  It was solely because Pops was desperate for somebody bigger than Duncan to defend Shaq.  It wasn't just a Pops thing, the entire NBA was doing it.  It's the reason why guys like Todd MacCollough had a job during those years.

If you think Shaq wouldn't ravage Duncan, then I don't think you remember prime Shaq very well.  This was Shaq's league.  NBA fans legitimately gave up caring about who won the titles from '00-'02 in the same way fans gave up after Durant joined GSW.

Nazr Mohammed, that's the other scrub who's name I couldn't remember.

This post really hits the nail on the head as to how Duncan matched up with Shaq, in other words, he didn't.  Pop intentionally did everything he could, including playing guys that had no business being out there, just to keep Duncan from having to defend Shaq.

Putting Duncan one-on-one against peak Shaq for anything other than brief stretches is a recipe for disaster.  He couldn't handle Shaq's physicality.  It's kind of ludicrous to suggest he could.

It's even more ludicrous to ignore series (like 2002) where Duncan actually matched up with Shaq, and he got completely ragdolled off the c- Oh wait, that isn't what happened. David Robinson didn't play much due to injury, and Duncan had to deal with Shaq. Duncan totally outplayed Shaq, and Shaq was pretty abysmal for his high standards. Shaq got let off the hook by Kobe.

Hey we don't remember prime Shaq very well! We're just nerds gawking at spreadsheets because we've never lived through those eras!

Seriously though, the narrative that Shaq would toss Tim Duncan around like a rag doll needs to stop. Duncan would've been the symbol of power in the deadball era if Shaq didn't play in the 2000s, he dominated the pivot by rooting himself in the paint and claiming valuable real estate in the phone booth during his prime, and held his own against Shaq, if not outplay him as he started peaking in 2002.

[Moranis]

Duncan would've been a centre on any team without David Robinson. I disagree with the belief that Shaq would ravage 2002 Duncan, the 2002 playoffs had Duncan going toe to toe with Shaq (Robinson was injured for the first two games and played sporadically in the next three) and putting up a monster series.

What about on a team with Rasho Nesterovic?  Or one with Nazr Mohammed?  Or one with Tiago Splitter?

Those first two guys were rostered at center alongside Duncan not because they were talented basketball players.  It was solely because Pops was desperate for somebody bigger than Duncan to defend Shaq.  It wasn't just a Pops thing, the entire NBA was doing it.  It's the reason why guys like Todd MacCollough had a job during those years.

If you think Shaq wouldn't ravage Duncan, then I don't think you remember prime Shaq very well.  This was Shaq's league.  NBA fans legitimately gave up caring about who won the titles from '00-'02 in the same way fans gave up after Durant joined GSW.

Duncan was a PF because he was quite simply better at PF until he got slower and beefed up later in his career when he no longer had the quickness to play PF effectively any more.  There were also season mixed in where he played center more before he went their full time.  For example, 2002-03 he played at center a lot more as Robinson missed a lot more games and his minutes kept going down.  TD was also MVP that year and the Spurs won the title.  If you are going to select a TD year and then play him at center, 03 was a much better year to pick, but I still maintain he wouldn't have been able to handle 2000 Shaq well at all.  Sure spots here and there, but not full time, and it would have been full time since no one else on that roster could come close to guarding Shaq. 

[RPGenerate]

Duncan would've been a centre on any team without David Robinson. I disagree with the belief that Shaq would ravage 2002 Duncan, the 2002 playoffs had Duncan going toe to toe with Shaq (Robinson was injured for the first two games and played sporadically in the next three) and putting up a monster series.

What about on a team with Rasho Nesterovic?  Or one with Nazr Mohammed?  Or one with Tiago Splitter?

Those first two guys were rostered at center alongside Duncan not because they were talented basketball players.  It was solely because Pops was desperate for somebody bigger than Duncan to defend Shaq.  It wasn't just a Pops thing, the entire NBA was doing it.  It's the reason why guys like Todd MacCollough had a job during those years.

If you think Shaq wouldn't ravage Duncan, then I don't think you remember prime Shaq very well.  This was Shaq's league.  NBA fans legitimately gave up caring about who won the titles from '00-'02 in the same way fans gave up after Durant joined GSW.

Nazr Mohammed, that's the other scrub who's name I couldn't remember.

This post really hits the nail on the head as to how Duncan matched up with Shaq, in other words, he didn't.  Pop intentionally did everything he could, including playing guys that had no business being out there, just to keep Duncan from having to defend Shaq.

Putting Duncan one-on-one against peak Shaq for anything other than brief stretches is a recipe for disaster.  He couldn't handle Shaq's physicality.  It's kind of ludicrous to suggest he could.

It's even more ludicrous to ignore series (like 2002) where Duncan actually matched up with Shaq, and he got completely ragdolled off the c- Oh wait, that isn't what happened. David Robinson didn't play much due to injury, and Duncan had to deal with Shaq. Duncan totally outplayed Shaq, and Shaq was pretty abysmal for his high standards. Shaq got let off the hook by Kobe.

Hey we don't remember prime Shaq very well! We're just nerds gawking at spreadsheets because we've never lived through those eras!

IKR? I have to defend Kobe here. Do you know how much that hurts my Celtics pride?

[Somebody]

Duncan would've been a centre on any team without David Robinson. I disagree with the belief that Shaq would ravage 2002 Duncan, the 2002 playoffs had Duncan going toe to toe with Shaq (Robinson was injured for the first two games and played sporadically in the next three) and putting up a monster series.

What about on a team with Rasho Nesterovic?  Or one with Nazr Mohammed?  Or one with Tiago Splitter?

Those first two guys were rostered at center alongside Duncan not because they were talented basketball players.  It was solely because Pops was desperate for somebody bigger than Duncan to defend Shaq.  It wasn't just a Pops thing, the entire NBA was doing it.  It's the reason why guys like Todd MacCollough had a job during those years.

If you think Shaq wouldn't ravage Duncan, then I don't think you remember prime Shaq very well.  This was Shaq's league.  NBA fans legitimately gave up caring about who won the titles from '00-'02 in the same way fans gave up after Durant joined GSW.

Nazr Mohammed, that's the other scrub who's name I couldn't remember.

This post really hits the nail on the head as to how Duncan matched up with Shaq, in other words, he didn't.  Pop intentionally did everything he could, including playing guys that had no business being out there, just to keep Duncan from having to defend Shaq.

Putting Duncan one-on-one against peak Shaq for anything other than brief stretches is a recipe for disaster.  He couldn't handle Shaq's physicality.  It's kind of ludicrous to suggest he could.

It's even more ludicrous to ignore series (like 2002) where Duncan actually matched up with Shaq, and he got completely ragdolled off the c- Oh wait, that isn't what happened. David Robinson didn't play much due to injury, and Duncan had to deal with Shaq. Duncan totally outplayed Shaq, and Shaq was pretty abysmal for his high standards. Shaq got let off the hook by Kobe.

Hey we don't remember prime Shaq very well! We're just nerds gawking at spreadsheets because we've never lived through those eras!

IKR? I have to defend Kobe here. Do you know how much that hurts my Celtics pride?

You're just doing that to save your pride as a stats nerd!

But yeah lol, kids who have no idea how Duncan and Shaq played would think that Duncan was a lanky forward masquerading as a big man if they just read this thread without watching the games for themselves.

[Who]

Popovich avoided putting Duncan on Shaq for the same reason Phil Jackson avoided putting Shaq on Duncan. They did not want their star player getting into foul trouble.

Duncan could defend Shaq as well as one could reasonably hope to defend Shaq.

[RPGenerate]

---DENVER NUGGETS STARTING LINEUP---
PG: Gary Payton
SG: Kyrie Irving
SF: Rip Hamilton
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Tim Duncan

---BENCH LINEUP---
PG: Steve Francis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Glenn Robinson
PF: Draymond Green
C: DeMarcus Cousins

---DEEP BENCH---
SG: Danny Green
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Anthony Mason
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Strategy will be in my next post.

[theswitch]

I think the best argument is the 2002 Lakers v. Spurs series - David Robinson was out for part of the series so Duncan had the fun of battling more of Shaq. Shaq's stats are below:

Game 1: 9 of 22, 23 points, 17 rebounds (no Robinson)
Game 2: 7 of 16, 19 points, 7 rebounds (no Robinson)
Game 3: 10 of 20, 22 points, 15 rebounds (half game of Robinson)
Game 4: 9 of 18, 22 points, 11 rebounds (full game of Robinson)
Game 5: 7 of 18, 21 points, 11 rebounds (half game of Robinson)

Those statistics against Duncan, with no Robinson playing, are fairly compelling proof points. Now, these are different years, but they are within a band that suggests Duncan could body up in some capacity to Shaq.

For what it's worth, Duncan went 9 of 30 in Game 1 (26 and 21), and 10 of 19 in Game 2 (27 and 17). Again, narrow view and the Lakers did win 4-1, but they had Kobe.

My personal gut is that Duncan is strong enough defensively to bother Shaq out of 2 wins in a series, but the wear and tear over 7 games is too much. I'm not sure the advantage at the other positions is enough to overcome that issue.

[Who]

lympic Carmelo was fantastic, I loved him.  But Olympic Carmelo played alongside Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams.  He had elite creators and table setters surrounding him  They played an uptempo system where Carmelo thrived... I can remember the ESPN highlights.  Hence why I wrote in my original post that he'd thrive off an elite creator and getting out in transition.  That's not the case in Denver... this team is constructed to to be a very good half-court grind-it-out type of team and its built it around one of the best guys in the game at that -- Tim Duncan.

That is interesting.

I see Denver more like mid-80s Celtics insofar as they can play any style of basketball.

Gary Payton was one of the best PGs in basketball at pushing the ball up the court quickly and creating easy shot attempts for his teammates.

Rip Hamilton was a very good transition player as was Melo. Both possess speed and finishing ability along with solid handles and passing.

Draymond Green is also a very good transition PF with his ball-handling and playmaking ability on the break.

Tim Duncan was one of the best running big men in the league in his early years. He is also (alongside Kevin Garnett) the best defensive facilitator in terms of defense, rebounding and outlet passing. Ideal for both initiating the break and also very good at finishing on the break.

I always wanted the Spurs to have more athletes to run more to take advantage of Duncan's transition game. They did that poorly throughout his prime.

[Somebody]

---DENVER NUGGETS STARTING LINEUP---
PG: Gary Payton
SG: Kyrie Irving
SF: Rip Hamilton
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Tim Duncan

---BENCH LINEUP---
PG: Steve Francis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Glenn Robinson
PF: Draymond Green
C: DeMarcus Cousins

---DEEP BENCH---
SG: Danny Green
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Anthony Mason
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Strategy will be in my next post.

Ever thought of playing Green instead of Raja as your backup SG? I like Green's versatility on defence more. Would also try looking at playing Covington ahead of Robinson - I think Big Dog's lack of lateral mobility would be costly against a team that has wings who are great at moving off the ball.

[RPGenerate]

---STRATEGY---
I changed my starting lineup for this matchup because I liked the mismatches I saw, and that is what I'll be planning my offense around; exploit beneficial matchups. Payton and Kyrie will be my main ball handlers who can create bad matchups for the other team. Whoever is guarded by Reggie Miller will be the on-ball scorer, which the other point guard will play off-ball more. Pick play with Melo and Duncan will be the bread and butter of my offense. Duncan will be the primary roll man, using the space from my four-out lineup to get good position inside. Melo will be a pick-and-pop guy, using the opportunity to either get an open look from three, or to attack a close out. Every pick-and-roll and pick-and-pop will be used to make Shaq and any other big man feel as uncomfortable as possible. Lastly, Hamilton will act as a off-ball player in these lineups, shooting off the catch and probing for any possible mismatch he might get

This team will probably use a bunch of iso plays as well, and I'm fine with that. That's how that the Kyrie and Lebron Cavs team toppled the best regular season team ever.

[RPGenerate]

---DENVER NUGGETS STARTING LINEUP---
PG: Gary Payton
SG: Kyrie Irving
SF: Rip Hamilton
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Tim Duncan

---BENCH LINEUP---
PG: Steve Francis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Glenn Robinson
PF: Draymond Green
C: DeMarcus Cousins

---DEEP BENCH---
SG: Danny Green
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Anthony Mason
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Strategy will be in my next post.

Ever thought of playing Green instead of Raja as your backup SG? I like Green's versatility on defence more. Would also try looking at playing Covington ahead of Robinson - I think Big Dog's lack of lateral mobility would be costly against a team that has wings who are great at moving off the ball.

I wasn't sure how Raja Bell compared to Danny Green. Bell was definitely before my time, and I think defense in particular relies much more on the eye test than offense does.

RoCo might be really useful in this series, so I may move him into the bench. It's a tough decision for sure.

[Somebody]

---DENVER NUGGETS STARTING LINEUP---
PG: Gary Payton
SG: Kyrie Irving
SF: Rip Hamilton
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Tim Duncan

---BENCH LINEUP---
PG: Steve Francis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Glenn Robinson
PF: Draymond Green
C: DeMarcus Cousins

---DEEP BENCH---
SG: Danny Green
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Anthony Mason
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Strategy will be in my next post.

Ever thought of playing Green instead of Raja as your backup SG? I like Green's versatility on defence more. Would also try looking at playing Covington ahead of Robinson - I think Big Dog's lack of lateral mobility would be costly against a team that has wings who are great at moving off the ball.

I wasn't sure how Raja Bell compared to Danny Green. Bell was definitely before my time, and I think defense in particular relies much more on the eye test than offense does.

RoCo might be really useful in this series, so I may move him into the bench. It's a tough decision for sure.

From my impression of watching some SSOL Suns games, I think Raja was better as a man to man defender (whether on or off the ball), but Green can cover more positions and provide better help defence. But yeah he was ahead of my time as well and I didn't research him heavily (I was focused on analysing Nash/Amare/Marion when watching those games), so I'd appreciate guys who've watched extensive tape of him to give their opinion.

[Donoghus]

Why are you not starting Boogie at C and sliding Duncan to PF?

Starting both Kyrie & Melo (and at PF too) seems like a mistake, IMO.  Talk about some real potential for stagnation.

[Roy H.]

---DENVER NUGGETS STARTING LINEUP---
PG: Gary Payton
SG: Kyrie Irving
SF: Rip Hamilton
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Tim Duncan

---BENCH LINEUP---
PG: Steve Francis
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Glenn Robinson
PF: Draymond Green
C: DeMarcus Cousins

---DEEP BENCH---
SG: Danny Green
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Anthony Mason
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Strategy will be in my next post.

Ever thought of playing Green instead of Raja as your backup SG? I like Green's versatility on defence more. Would also try looking at playing Covington ahead of Robinson - I think Big Dog's lack of lateral mobility would be costly against a team that has wings who are great at moving off the ball.

I wasn't sure how Raja Bell compared to Danny Green. Bell was definitely before my time, and I think defense in particular relies much more on the eye test than offense does.

RoCo might be really useful in this series, so I may move him into the bench. It's a tough decision for sure.

I think that Raja Bell is a guy who has been lost to history a bit.  He was one of the best Kobe defenders.  If you’re sticking him on guards, I’d stay with Bell.  If you need somebody to switch onto SFs, it’s probably Green.

[Moranis]

Why are you not starting Boogie at C and sliding Duncan to PF?

Starting both Kyrie & Melo (and at PF too) seems like a mistake, IMO.  Talk about some real potential for stagnation.

And Irving as a SG, yiies