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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 09:00:59 PM »

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Absolutely amazing, what Tiger has done over and over again ... pulling out wins against the oddds ... I truly have never seen anything like it, and those who try to detract from anything this guy does on the links, are really of very questioinable motivation. Awesome putt, Tiger ... and an incredible save!
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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 09:05:33 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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My.... God...

Has there ever been anyone that steps up in the clutch and actually makes you more shocked when he fails?  I thought he'd miss that... just seemed he didn't have it this week... then I told my roommate, "I don't know why I'd ever expect him to miss that..."

If his knee holds up, Rocco is toast... but we'll see.  If Rocco let's it get in his head, Tiger might end this after 6 holes.


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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 09:52:00 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Absolutely amazing, what Tiger has done over and over again ... pulling out wins against the oddds ... I truly have never seen anything like it, and those who try to detract from anything this guy does on the links, are really of very questioinable motivation. Awesome putt, Tiger ... and an incredible save!

Early in his career, I was skeptical of Tiger's hype.  Long ago, though, I conceded that he's the best there ever was.  The gap between him and #2 (Jack Nicklaus) may be bigger than the gap between any #1 and #2 in any sport (with the possible exception of baseball; I think Babe Ruth towers above anybody there, as well.)

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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 09:55:46 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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Absolutely amazing, what Tiger has done over and over again ... pulling out wins against the oddds ... I truly have never seen anything like it, and those who try to detract from anything this guy does on the links, are really of very questioinable motivation. Awesome putt, Tiger ... and an incredible save!

Early in his career, I was skeptical of Tiger's hype.  Long ago, though, I conceded that he's the best there ever was.  The gap between him and #2 (Jack Nicklaus) may be bigger than the gap between any #1 and #2 in any sport (with the possible exception of baseball; I think Babe Ruth towers above anybody there, as well.)

Whoa now, that is stretching a little...

Jack... 18 majors, 19 seconds in majors, 73 top 10s in majors.

Tiger could win 24 majors, but still won't touch the 19 and 73 numbers for 2nd and top 10 finishes.  I don't think Tiger can create as big of a gap as you suggest.  Tiger in 2000 was far and away the most dominant stretch of any major athlete ever though, but he hasn't been that good since.


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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 10:03:06 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Absolutely amazing, what Tiger has done over and over again ... pulling out wins against the oddds ... I truly have never seen anything like it, and those who try to detract from anything this guy does on the links, are really of very questioinable motivation. Awesome putt, Tiger ... and an incredible save!

Early in his career, I was skeptical of Tiger's hype.  Long ago, though, I conceded that he's the best there ever was.  The gap between him and #2 (Jack Nicklaus) may be bigger than the gap between any #1 and #2 in any sport (with the possible exception of baseball; I think Babe Ruth towers above anybody there, as well.)

Whoa now, that is stretching a little...

Jack... 18 majors, 19 seconds in majors, 73 top 10s in majors.

Tiger could win 24 majors, but still won't touch the 19 and 73 numbers for 2nd and top 10 finishes.  I don't think Tiger can create as big of a gap as you suggest.  Tiger in 2000 was far and away the most dominant stretch of any major athlete ever though, but he hasn't been that good since.

Maybe you're right, but I think the competition Tiger plays against right now is much more consistent.  Plus, designers go out of their way to "Tiger proof" courses, and he still dominates.  A lot will depend upon how Tiger finishes out his career, and how long he wants to keep playing, but I think he's fairly clearly the best there ever was.

(I neglected hockey in my analysis, too, though.  Gretzky to #2 is a pretty big gap.  So, I retract my statement, but Tiger is crazy good.)

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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 10:07:56 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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Absolutely amazing, what Tiger has done over and over again ... pulling out wins against the oddds ... I truly have never seen anything like it, and those who try to detract from anything this guy does on the links, are really of very questioinable motivation. Awesome putt, Tiger ... and an incredible save!

Early in his career, I was skeptical of Tiger's hype.  Long ago, though, I conceded that he's the best there ever was.  The gap between him and #2 (Jack Nicklaus) may be bigger than the gap between any #1 and #2 in any sport (with the possible exception of baseball; I think Babe Ruth towers above anybody there, as well.)

Whoa now, that is stretching a little...

Jack... 18 majors, 19 seconds in majors, 73 top 10s in majors.

Tiger could win 24 majors, but still won't touch the 19 and 73 numbers for 2nd and top 10 finishes.  I don't think Tiger can create as big of a gap as you suggest.  Tiger in 2000 was far and away the most dominant stretch of any major athlete ever though, but he hasn't been that good since.

Maybe you're right, but I think the competition Tiger plays against right now is much more consistent.  Plus, designers go out of their way to "Tiger proof" courses, and he still dominates.  A lot will depend upon how Tiger finishes out his career, and how long he wants to keep playing, but I think he's fairly clearly the best there ever was.

(I neglected hockey in my analysis, too, though.  Gretzky to #2 is a pretty big gap.  So, I retract my statement, but Tiger is crazy good.)

Definitely... Gretzky is the one I'm thinking of too.  Here's how I see it, from my avid golf/Minnesota goggles:

Jack is to Jerry Rice as Tiger is to Rany Moss (if he had Tiger's mental make up).  Jack/Jerry's accomplishments are mind blowing, and 10 years ago they'd be up there in the "records to never to be broken".  But then Tiger/Randy came around, and quickly proved to be by far the most talented at their roles ever.  The fact that they are even threatening their elders records is amazing.  Tiger could likely break THE record.  Moss likely won't break anymore of Rice's, and it's the mental part that separate.

Here's how I break it down:

Greatest Golfer Ever:  Jack Nicklaus

Most Talented/Dominant Golfer Ever: Tiger Woods

But Tiger will claim all three soon.

Oh, and as far as Tiger having more consistent competition... interesting take, most people consider it to be quite the opposite.  Really hard to say though because of all the course and equipment changes, and because Tiger just set himself so far apart.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 10:14:52 PM by Big Ticket »


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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2008, 11:04:55 AM »

Offline connerhenry43

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i find it amazing how his knee stopped huring on the back nine yesterday,. perhaps he got some treatment at the turn. what a recovery.  ::)
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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2008, 11:07:18 AM »

Offline crownsy

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I doubt it stopped hurting. he's said before it only hurts when he swings, not walking, so i think its more of a mental thing.

Kind of like not freaking out because of the recoil before it happens you know?
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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2008, 11:24:10 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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i find it amazing how his knee stopped huring on the back nine yesterday,. perhaps he got some treatment at the turn. what a recovery.  ::)

Weren't we just criticizing Lakers fans for this type of sentiment?

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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2008, 12:42:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Well, I said it Friday. They should have just given him the Trophy then and spared us all the truly exciting and historicalgolf. he was going to win anyway. ;) ;D

I am amazed that at the hardest golf Open on the planet Tiger can basically beat the field while playing on an unquestionably not 100% recovered knee. Can he really be better than everyone else out there? I guess so.

And if anyone doesn't believe that he going to win this, then I don't know what to tell you. I knew he was going to at least birdie 18 yesterday. Tiger knew it. My wife who hates golf but loves all things Tiger(he's cute!) knew it. Heck, Rocco Mediate admitted in front of a camera he knew Tiger was going to birdie!

And I know the same thing today!

BigTicket, I have tons of respect for you and you contribute so much to the quality of this thread. But I could not disagree with you more on the Tiger/Jack, Moss/Rice analogy. Moss is great but Rice is the best ever and is still miles ahead on Moss. Last season just doesn't elevate him that high. But Jack is not better than Tiger.

At the same age, when both turned 32, Tiger had won 4 more professionals majors than Jack(13-9), 1 more amateur major than Jack(3-2), and more tournaments(61-38). Also Jack was able to accomplish, ever, these stunning Tiger accomplishments:

• Win four consecutive major championships (2000 U.S. Open - 2001 Masters).
• Win three majors in the same year (2000).
• Win the U.S. Open by 15 strokes. (Nicklaus's largest margin of victory in golf's most grueling test was four shots.)
• Win back-to-back British Opens (2005-2006) and PGA Championships (2006-2007).
• Never cough up a 54-hole lead at a major.
• Win eight tournaments in a season. (Woods has done it three times.)
• Win at least five tournaments in five consecutive seasons. (Nicklaus topped out at three.)
• Win seven consecutive starts.
• Win tournaments in Dubai, Japan, Thailand and Germany.
• Make 142 consecutive cuts. (Jack was spent after 105.)
• Finish first on the money list four consecutive years.
• Win three consecutive U.S. Amateurs (on top of three consecutive U.S. Juniors).

I am in no way trying to diminish the career or ability of Jack Nicklaus who I grew up watching battle Tom Watson all the time in the 70's. I love Jack. But he is no Tiger.

Some say Jack played against better competition. I say he played against competition that he was better than but not by as wide a margin as Tiger is better than the field he plays against every week. Was the field in Jack's days better than the field in Tiger's days? That's debatable. If we put Els, Garcia, Michelson, Goosen and others as they are now back in the 1970's would they be as good as Player, Watson, Crenshaw and the rest? They very well may have been as good or even better than those guys.

But we will never know and we can't compare stats because of the difference in technology and the fact that Tiger is so much better than today's field of players that their stats are emasculated by Tiger. Take Tiger's wins and adjust them down to Jack's levels at a similar age and I think you would see that Tiger would be playing against a 5 time major winner, a 3-4 time major winner and a bunch of guys with a whole lot more tourney wins as well. The fields would then appear to be much the same on a wins stat line.

Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2008, 12:57:45 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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BigTicket, I have tons of respect for you and you contribute so much to the quality of this thread. But I could not disagree with you more on the Tiger/Jack, Moss/Rice analogy. Moss is great but Rice is the best ever and is still miles ahead on Moss. Last season just doesn't elevate him that high. But Jack is not better than Tiger.

I haven't said that Jack is better than Tiger.  Saying Jack is the Greatest Ever means different to me than you I guess.... I said Tiger IS the most talented and dominant ever.  That is undeniable.  1997 Masters, 2000 U.S. Open... you don't have to go much further than those 2 tournaments to prove that.  But Jack was almost as dominant.  I've read a lot about Jack, and what stands out most was a story about his first ever round with Arnold Palmer.  Jack was about 19, and the exhibition started with a driving contest.  Nicklaus laced drive after drive well beyond the green 330 yards away.  This is with wood drivers and terrible balls.  The guy had insane skills.  If not for Arnie, Player, Trevino, etc... maybe Nicklaus has 24 majors, who knows?  But like I said before, it's impossible to gauge each of their competition in different eras.  Maybe Mickelson is better than Palmer was (highly doubt it) and Tiger is just that much better?  Impossible to say.

As far as Rice/Moss... I have to agree to disagree I guess.  As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no denying that Moss is more talented than Rice ever was.  Rice built his career on several things... unprecedented work ethic, unprecedented durability, precise routes, great talent, and being on great teams with great quarterbacks.  But I don't know how anyone in their right mind can say he had more "talent" than Randy Moss.  Moss owns him in speed, leaping ability, timing, body positioning, hands, and size.  Moss destroyed many of Rice's "unbreakable" college records.  He set numerous rookie records.  He just broke Rice's single season TD record.  If Moss had the attitude, durability, and QBs that Rice had... he probably goes down as the greatest football player of all time.

My analogy was a legacy vs. talent comment.  Jack still has the best legacy.  Rice has the best legacy.  Tiger has more talent.  Moss has more talent.  And I admitted the difference is the mental stuff, and that's why Tiger will surpass Jack's legacy and Moss won't do the same with Rice.


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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2008, 02:16:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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BigTicket, I have tons of respect for you and you contribute so much to the quality of this thread. But I could not disagree with you more on the Tiger/Jack, Moss/Rice analogy. Moss is great but Rice is the best ever and is still miles ahead on Moss. Last season just doesn't elevate him that high. But Jack is not better than Tiger.

I haven't said that Jack is better than Tiger.  Saying Jack is the Greatest Ever means different to me than you I guess.... I said Tiger IS the most talented and dominant ever.  That is undeniable.  1997 Masters, 2000 U.S. Open... you don't have to go much further than those 2 tournaments to prove that.  But Jack was almost as dominant.  I've read a lot about Jack, and what stands out most was a story about his first ever round with Arnold Palmer.  Jack was about 19, and the exhibition started with a driving contest.  Nicklaus laced drive after drive well beyond the green 330 yards away.  This is with wood drivers and terrible balls.  The guy had insane skills.  If not for Arnie, Player, Trevino, etc... maybe Nicklaus has 24 majors, who knows?  But like I said before, it's impossible to gauge each of their competition in different eras.  Maybe Mickelson is better than Palmer was (highly doubt it) and Tiger is just that much better?  Impossible to say.

As far as Rice/Moss... I have to agree to disagree I guess.  As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no denying that Moss is more talented than Rice ever was.  Rice built his career on several things... unprecedented work ethic, unprecedented durability, precise routes, great talent, and being on great teams with great quarterbacks.  But I don't know how anyone in their right mind can say he had more "talent" than Randy Moss.  Moss owns him in speed, leaping ability, timing, body positioning, hands, and size.  Moss destroyed many of Rice's "unbreakable" college records.  He set numerous rookie records.  He just broke Rice's single season TD record.  If Moss had the attitude, durability, and QBs that Rice had... he probably goes down as the greatest football player of all time.

My analogy was a legacy vs. talent comment.  Jack still has the best legacy.  Rice has the best legacy.  Tiger has more talent.  Moss has more talent.  And I admitted the difference is the mental stuff, and that's why Tiger will surpass Jack's legacy and Moss won't do the same with Rice.
I guess we will just agree to disagree on all matters then.

1. I would say that Moss might equal Rice's talent but in no way surpasses it. Let's not forget that when Rice was in his prime many people from around the game considered him possibly the best football player at that time and maybe in the discussion of best football player ever, not just the best receiver ever.

2. Jerry Rice has the better legacy or career if you will. Rice was the consumate professional and team player, Randy, not so much.

3. Jack at the moment has the better legacy. But if Tiger's career were to be struck tragically short, Tiger's legacy in time would surpass that of Jack. The amount accomplished in the time span it was accomplished with the dominance it was accomplished in would weigh heavily in people's minds as to who was the best ever.

Case in point: Sandy Koufax is considered to be one of the best and in some people's minds the best ever to throw a ball. His dominance over a 7 year stretch was maybe the most dominant of any pitcher ever. Now does he have as many records as Cy Young, no. But just about everyone acknowledges he was a better pitcher and his legacy in many ways outshines Young's.

Maybe it's semantics. Maybe its just a different spin on things. I don't know. But one thing I think we both agree on is all 4 players from both sports are among the 2 or 3 greatest ever in their respective professions.

Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2008, 02:23:21 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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BigTicket, I have tons of respect for you and you contribute so much to the quality of this thread. But I could not disagree with you more on the Tiger/Jack, Moss/Rice analogy. Moss is great but Rice is the best ever and is still miles ahead on Moss. Last season just doesn't elevate him that high. But Jack is not better than Tiger.

I haven't said that Jack is better than Tiger.  Saying Jack is the Greatest Ever means different to me than you I guess.... I said Tiger IS the most talented and dominant ever.  That is undeniable.  1997 Masters, 2000 U.S. Open... you don't have to go much further than those 2 tournaments to prove that.  But Jack was almost as dominant.  I've read a lot about Jack, and what stands out most was a story about his first ever round with Arnold Palmer.  Jack was about 19, and the exhibition started with a driving contest.  Nicklaus laced drive after drive well beyond the green 330 yards away.  This is with wood drivers and terrible balls.  The guy had insane skills.  If not for Arnie, Player, Trevino, etc... maybe Nicklaus has 24 majors, who knows?  But like I said before, it's impossible to gauge each of their competition in different eras.  Maybe Mickelson is better than Palmer was (highly doubt it) and Tiger is just that much better?  Impossible to say.

As far as Rice/Moss... I have to agree to disagree I guess.  As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no denying that Moss is more talented than Rice ever was.  Rice built his career on several things... unprecedented work ethic, unprecedented durability, precise routes, great talent, and being on great teams with great quarterbacks.  But I don't know how anyone in their right mind can say he had more "talent" than Randy Moss.  Moss owns him in speed, leaping ability, timing, body positioning, hands, and size.  Moss destroyed many of Rice's "unbreakable" college records.  He set numerous rookie records.  He just broke Rice's single season TD record.  If Moss had the attitude, durability, and QBs that Rice had... he probably goes down as the greatest football player of all time.

My analogy was a legacy vs. talent comment.  Jack still has the best legacy.  Rice has the best legacy.  Tiger has more talent.  Moss has more talent.  And I admitted the difference is the mental stuff, and that's why Tiger will surpass Jack's legacy and Moss won't do the same with Rice.
I guess we will just agree to disagree on all matters then.

1. I would say that Moss might equal Rice's talent but in no way surpasses it. Let's not forget that when Rice was in his prime many people from around the game considered him possibly the best football player at that time and maybe in the discussion of best football player ever, not just the best receiver ever.

2. Jerry Rice has the better legacy or career if you will. Rice was the consumate professional and team player, Randy, not so much.

3. Jack at the moment has the better legacy. But if Tiger's career were to be struck tragically short, Tiger's legacy in time would surpass that of Jack. The amount accomplished in the time span it was accomplished with the dominance it was accomplished in would weigh heavily in people's minds as to who was the best ever.

Case in point: Sandy Koufax is considered to be one of the best and in some people's minds the best ever to throw a ball. His dominance over a 7 year stretch was maybe the most dominant of any pitcher ever. Now does he have as many records as Cy Young, no. But just about everyone acknowledges he was a better pitcher and his legacy in many ways outshines Young's.

Maybe it's semantics. Maybe its just a different spin on things. I don't know. But one thing I think we both agree on is all 4 players from both sports are among the 2 or 3 greatest ever in their respective professions.

Well I agree with points 2 and 3... pretty much what I was saying.  You're probably right about Tiger's legacy growing even if he stopped today, but the 18-19-73 for wins, 2nds, top 10s in majors by Jack sets him apart until Tiger does some more work.  #2 above, we are in total agreement on... I think I was pretty clear about Rice vs. Moss as far as legacy and professionalism... but again, can't really understand people thinking Rice was more "talented", unless you didn't watch Moss much from 1998-2003 or so.

Funny you use the Koufax example... he's a friend of my dad's and I've written back and forth with him a couple times.


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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2008, 02:25:17 PM »

Offline connerhenry43

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i find it amazing how his knee stopped huring on the back nine yesterday,. perhaps he got some treatment at the turn. what a recovery.  ::)

Weren't we just criticizing Lakers fans for this type of sentiment?

i did not see paul linger and pretend it was hurt every 4th shot. he got hurt. went to the locker room, came back and played. he never said another word about it. this is far different than the mockery tiger was making of himself on saturday.

again today, with the lowered tv audience and crowd, the kneee seems fine and it was quite obvious he was faking all weekend. he is playing great today, and i have to give him credit. i have never seen better putting, especially from ten feet and in.
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Re: Official 2008 U.S. Open Thread
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2008, 02:32:51 PM »

Offline Chris

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i find it amazing how his knee stopped huring on the back nine yesterday,. perhaps he got some treatment at the turn. what a recovery.  ::)

Weren't we just criticizing Lakers fans for this type of sentiment?

i did not see paul linger and pretend it was hurt every 4th shot. he got hurt. went to the locker room, came back and played. he never said another word about it. this is far different than the mockery tiger was making of himself on saturday.

again today, with the lowered tv audience and crowd, the kneee seems fine and it was quite obvious he was faking all weekend. he is playing great today, and i have to give him credit. i have never seen better putting, especially from ten feet and in.

For something so obvious, you seem to be in the minority thinking he is faking.  Not saying you are wrong...but at the least, I would say that is a little less obvious than you seem to think.

If he was just making faces, that would be one thing, but when you look at the replays of many of his shots, he is clearly favoring his left knee, and it has led to many terrible shots (especially off the tee).  So either he is a true method actor, and is really committed to the role, or he is actually hurt and playing through the pain.