Author Topic: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry  (Read 2186 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Silky

  • NFT
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2347
  • Tommy Points: 144
So we all know that last seasons team performed much better than the team this season. But lets look a little closer.

Offense was ranked 22nd in 2018 and 16th in 2019
Defense was ranked  3rd in 2018 and 9th in 2020


starters last season for 60 games was Irving/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Baynes
351 minutes 110.5 offensive 98.1 defensive, net 12.5 rating


Most used lineup this season was Irving/Smart/Tatum/Morris/Horford
505 minutes 113.2 offensive 107.3 defensive, net 6.1 rating


So Why the difference????


Lets look



Many want to point to Kyrie, but as shown in many other posts and threads, his numbers improved indiviualy and he showed that he moved the ball more this past season. and he only played 7 fewer games this season than last season, so he is not to blame for the offensive or defensive slip this season overall as a team.

No Blame

Smart played alot of starter minutes this year due to the bad start to the season for brown, but that bad start has been attributed to a change in role to accommodate Hayward

Tatum regressed a little this season, which most attribute to sophmore slump/ having role jerked around to accommodate Hayward.

Blame goes to Hayward

Horford is not as good a defender at center as at Power Forward. As evidenced by a 105.5 defensive rating 2019 to a 100.8 defensive rating last season. why was he playing so many minutes at Center? Cause Morris needed to play...why did Morris need to play so many minutes? Cause Baynes was injured

Blame goes to Baynes and Morris

Rozier, 103.3 offensive rating 2018 and a defensive rating 2018 of 100.8 for a net 2.6 rating

Rozier 103.9 offensive rating for 2019 and a 105.2 defensive rating for a new -1.2 rating

touch per minute
Kyrie 76.3/33mins = 2.31
Rozier 51.9/22.7mins = 2.29

Kyrie's points per touch is .310
Terry's is .173

Kyrie's assists per touch is .0898
Terry's is .0559

Terry was statistically worse this past season in pretty much every single advanced analytic as well as raw stats that the 2018 season.

Terry still feels like he sacrificed the most for it.

Blame STILL TERRY



Lastly Bonus blame

Terry playing 22.7 minutes per game
Bad timeouts
Bad lineups (playing Gordon when he shouldnt have been played at all?)
Never once taking a technical standing up for the team

Blame Stevens

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 01:14:42 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
Rozier is a back up PG. Even though he sucked majorly, CBS messed up starting Hayward when he wasn't ready and rarely adjusting in game. He also managed to let leads get blown by and not call any time out. That's what annoys me the most.

Pop is one of the greatest is because he also gives players, a very light leash before he calls timeouts.

Injuries and team chemistry was also a problem.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 01:21:48 PM »

Offline CptZoogs

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 584
  • Tommy Points: 79
I don't understand the mentality of "Tatum and Brown struggled to adapt, so blame someone else."  How about blaming Tatum and Brown.  This is coming from someone who really likes both players.  Yes they are young players, but every person needs to be accountable for how they personally handle a situation.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 01:28:34 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
I don't understand the mentality of "Tatum and Brown struggled to adapt, so blame someone else."  How about blaming Tatum and Brown.  This is coming from someone who really likes both players.  Yes they are young players, but every person needs to be accountable for how they personally handle a situation.

Out of everyone on the team, the last person you should blame is Horford or Brown...

Brown got benched many times, lost starting role and never ever complained or threw his teammates under the bus like Irving or Rozier did. He also performed well after his recovery from his injury and was our best player in the playoffs.
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 01:34:15 PM »

Offline CptZoogs

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 584
  • Tommy Points: 79
I don't understand the mentality of "Tatum and Brown struggled to adapt, so blame someone else."  How about blaming Tatum and Brown.  This is coming from someone who really likes both players.  Yes they are young players, but every person needs to be accountable for how they personally handle a situation.

Out of everyone on the team, the last person you should blame is Horford or Brown...

Brown got benched many times, lost starting role and never ever complained or threw his teammates under the bus like Irving or Rozier did. He also performed well after his recovery from his injury and was our best player in the playoffs.

I agree with you on Brown (and of course Horford).  Brown actually did show accountability and was able to adapt to his role off the bench down the stretch.  My larger point was that I don't agree with blaming the performance of a player on anyone but the player, and maybe the coach to a certain extent.  A coach does have a role in putting their players in the right situation.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 01:53:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
There is blame for all with last season. From Ainge to Stevens to just about every player and to the assistant coaches. It was a team failure so the entire team is to blame.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 02:07:06 PM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8912
  • Tommy Points: 1212
So we all know that last seasons team performed much better than the team this season. But lets look a little closer.

Offense was ranked 22nd in 2018 and 16th in 2019
Defense was ranked  3rd in 2018 and 9th in 2020


starters last season for 60 games was Irving/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Baynes
351 minutes 110.5 offensive 98.1 defensive, net 12.5 rating


Most used lineup this season was Irving/Smart/Tatum/Morris/Horford
505 minutes 113.2 offensive 107.3 defensive, net 6.1 rating


So Why the difference????


Lets look



Many want to point to Kyrie, but as shown in many other posts and threads, his numbers improved indiviualy and he showed that he moved the ball more this past season. and he only played 7 fewer games this season than last season, so he is not to blame for the offensive or defensive slip this season overall as a team.

No Blame

Smart played alot of starter minutes this year due to the bad start to the season for brown, but that bad start has been attributed to a change in role to accommodate Hayward

Tatum regressed a little this season, which most attribute to sophmore slump/ having role jerked around to accommodate Hayward.

Blame goes to Hayward

Horford is not as good a defender at center as at Power Forward. As evidenced by a 105.5 defensive rating 2019 to a 100.8 defensive rating last season. why was he playing so many minutes at Center? Cause Morris needed to play...why did Morris need to play so many minutes? Cause Baynes was injured

Blame goes to Baynes and Morris

Rozier, 103.3 offensive rating 2018 and a defensive rating 2018 of 100.8 for a net 2.6 rating

Rozier 103.9 offensive rating for 2019 and a 105.2 defensive rating for a new -1.2 rating

touch per minute
Kyrie 76.3/33mins = 2.31
Rozier 51.9/22.7mins = 2.29

Kyrie's points per touch is .310
Terry's is .173

Kyrie's assists per touch is .0898
Terry's is .0559

Terry was statistically worse this past season in pretty much every single advanced analytic as well as raw stats that the 2018 season.

Terry still feels like he sacrificed the most for it.

Blame STILL TERRY



Lastly Bonus blame

Terry playing 22.7 minutes per game
Bad timeouts
Bad lineups (playing Gordon when he shouldnt have been played at all?)
Never once taking a technical standing up for the team

Blame Stevens

That's completely untrue. He may not take as many as you like, but he got one against the Thunder early in the season and another in the playoffs (I don't think he got one when he dropped the F bomb after Tatum got a tech against the Pistons, but he probably deserved one there, too)

Also, blaming Morris when you say he only needed the minutes because of Baynes' injuries doesn't really make sense, if anything the blame there goes to Danny for not having another center that deserved minutes, or Theis and Williams for not being good enough to earn consistent minutes at Center
I'm bitter.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 02:19:16 PM »

Offline Silky

  • NFT
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2347
  • Tommy Points: 144
So we all know that last seasons team performed much better than the team this season. But lets look a little closer.

Offense was ranked 22nd in 2018 and 16th in 2019
Defense was ranked  3rd in 2018 and 9th in 2020


starters last season for 60 games was Irving/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Baynes
351 minutes 110.5 offensive 98.1 defensive, net 12.5 rating


Most used lineup this season was Irving/Smart/Tatum/Morris/Horford
505 minutes 113.2 offensive 107.3 defensive, net 6.1 rating


So Why the difference????


Lets look



Many want to point to Kyrie, but as shown in many other posts and threads, his numbers improved indiviualy and he showed that he moved the ball more this past season. and he only played 7 fewer games this season than last season, so he is not to blame for the offensive or defensive slip this season overall as a team.

No Blame

Smart played alot of starter minutes this year due to the bad start to the season for brown, but that bad start has been attributed to a change in role to accommodate Hayward

Tatum regressed a little this season, which most attribute to sophmore slump/ having role jerked around to accommodate Hayward.

Blame goes to Hayward

Horford is not as good a defender at center as at Power Forward. As evidenced by a 105.5 defensive rating 2019 to a 100.8 defensive rating last season. why was he playing so many minutes at Center? Cause Morris needed to play...why did Morris need to play so many minutes? Cause Baynes was injured

Blame goes to Baynes and Morris

Rozier, 103.3 offensive rating 2018 and a defensive rating 2018 of 100.8 for a net 2.6 rating

Rozier 103.9 offensive rating for 2019 and a 105.2 defensive rating for a new -1.2 rating

touch per minute
Kyrie 76.3/33mins = 2.31
Rozier 51.9/22.7mins = 2.29

Kyrie's points per touch is .310
Terry's is .173

Kyrie's assists per touch is .0898
Terry's is .0559

Terry was statistically worse this past season in pretty much every single advanced analytic as well as raw stats that the 2018 season.

Terry still feels like he sacrificed the most for it.

Blame STILL TERRY



Lastly Bonus blame

Terry playing 22.7 minutes per game
Bad timeouts
Bad lineups (playing Gordon when he shouldnt have been played at all?)
Never once taking a technical standing up for the team

Blame Stevens

That's completely untrue. He may not take as many as you like, but he got one against the Thunder early in the season and another in the playoffs (I don't think he got one when he dropped the F bomb after Tatum got a tech against the Pistons, but he probably deserved one there, too)

Also, blaming Morris when you say he only needed the minutes because of Baynes' injuries doesn't really make sense, if anything the blame there goes to Danny for not having another center that deserved minutes, or Theis and Williams for not being good enough to earn consistent minutes at Center

There was times when Stevens should have done more. alot of times.

And It was Marcus who went after Baynes like Tonya Harding. lol

I am not really blaming Baynes either

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 02:27:25 PM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8912
  • Tommy Points: 1212
So we all know that last seasons team performed much better than the team this season. But lets look a little closer.

Offense was ranked 22nd in 2018 and 16th in 2019
Defense was ranked  3rd in 2018 and 9th in 2020


starters last season for 60 games was Irving/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Baynes
351 minutes 110.5 offensive 98.1 defensive, net 12.5 rating


Most used lineup this season was Irving/Smart/Tatum/Morris/Horford
505 minutes 113.2 offensive 107.3 defensive, net 6.1 rating


So Why the difference????


Lets look



Many want to point to Kyrie, but as shown in many other posts and threads, his numbers improved indiviualy and he showed that he moved the ball more this past season. and he only played 7 fewer games this season than last season, so he is not to blame for the offensive or defensive slip this season overall as a team.

No Blame

Smart played alot of starter minutes this year due to the bad start to the season for brown, but that bad start has been attributed to a change in role to accommodate Hayward

Tatum regressed a little this season, which most attribute to sophmore slump/ having role jerked around to accommodate Hayward.

Blame goes to Hayward

Horford is not as good a defender at center as at Power Forward. As evidenced by a 105.5 defensive rating 2019 to a 100.8 defensive rating last season. why was he playing so many minutes at Center? Cause Morris needed to play...why did Morris need to play so many minutes? Cause Baynes was injured

Blame goes to Baynes and Morris

Rozier, 103.3 offensive rating 2018 and a defensive rating 2018 of 100.8 for a net 2.6 rating

Rozier 103.9 offensive rating for 2019 and a 105.2 defensive rating for a new -1.2 rating

touch per minute
Kyrie 76.3/33mins = 2.31
Rozier 51.9/22.7mins = 2.29

Kyrie's points per touch is .310
Terry's is .173

Kyrie's assists per touch is .0898
Terry's is .0559

Terry was statistically worse this past season in pretty much every single advanced analytic as well as raw stats that the 2018 season.

Terry still feels like he sacrificed the most for it.

Blame STILL TERRY



Lastly Bonus blame

Terry playing 22.7 minutes per game
Bad timeouts
Bad lineups (playing Gordon when he shouldnt have been played at all?)
Never once taking a technical standing up for the team

Blame Stevens

That's completely untrue. He may not take as many as you like, but he got one against the Thunder early in the season and another in the playoffs (I don't think he got one when he dropped the F bomb after Tatum got a tech against the Pistons, but he probably deserved one there, too)

Also, blaming Morris when you say he only needed the minutes because of Baynes' injuries doesn't really make sense, if anything the blame there goes to Danny for not having another center that deserved minutes, or Theis and Williams for not being good enough to earn consistent minutes at Center

There was times when Stevens should have done more. alot of times.

And It was Marcus who went after Baynes like Tonya Harding. lol

I am not really blaming Baynes either

Honestly, the whole organization should have done more

And I think the Basketball gods just wanted payback on Baynes for breaking Irving's nose last year. Clearly he deserved all his weird injuries!  ;D
I'm bitter.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 02:36:55 PM »

Offline Bobshot

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2050
  • Tommy Points: 141
So we all know that last seasons team performed much better than the team this season. But lets look a little closer.

Offense was ranked 22nd in 2018 and 16th in 2019
Defense was ranked  3rd in 2018 and 9th in 2020


starters last season for 60 games was Irving/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Baynes
351 minutes 110.5 offensive 98.1 defensive, net 12.5 rating


Most used lineup this season was Irving/Smart/Tatum/Morris/Horford
505 minutes 113.2 offensive 107.3 defensive, net 6.1 rating


So Why the difference????


Lets look



Many want to point to Kyrie, but as shown in many other posts and threads, his numbers improved indiviualy and he showed that he moved the ball more this past season. and he only played 7 fewer games this season than last season, so he is not to blame for the offensive or defensive slip this season overall as a team.

No Blame

Smart played alot of starter minutes this year due to the bad start to the season for brown, but that bad start has been attributed to a change in role to accommodate Hayward

Tatum regressed a little this season, which most attribute to sophmore slump/ having role jerked around to accommodate Hayward.

Blame goes to Hayward

Horford is not as good a defender at center as at Power Forward. As evidenced by a 105.5 defensive rating 2019 to a 100.8 defensive rating last season. why was he playing so many minutes at Center? Cause Morris needed to play...why did Morris need to play so many minutes? Cause Baynes was injured

Blame goes to Baynes and Morris

Rozier, 103.3 offensive rating 2018 and a defensive rating 2018 of 100.8 for a net 2.6 rating

Rozier 103.9 offensive rating for 2019 and a 105.2 defensive rating for a new -1.2 rating

touch per minute
Kyrie 76.3/33mins = 2.31
Rozier 51.9/22.7mins = 2.29

Kyrie's points per touch is .310
Terry's is .173

Kyrie's assists per touch is .0898
Terry's is .0559

Terry was statistically worse this past season in pretty much every single advanced analytic as well as raw stats that the 2018 season.

Terry still feels like he sacrificed the most for it.

Blame STILL TERRY



Lastly Bonus blame

Terry playing 22.7 minutes per game
Bad timeouts
Bad lineups (playing Gordon when he shouldnt have been played at all?)
Never once taking a technical standing up for the team

Blame Stevens

That's it in a nutshell.

Ainge/Stevens paid no attention to what worked last year, to accommodate Hayward and others. Baynes also proved injury prone. Ainge made no effort to get a veteran center in the stretch like Marc Gasol or others available.  They simply couldn't win without Baynes plugging the middle. And Stevens wouldn't play Williams--Ainge's top draft pick. Certainly not a liability in the paint, for heavens sake.

All this mediatalk about Irving being a problem is a bunch of BS. Sure he has a big mouth to the media, but he was their best player, and Ainge has to make sure he stays in Boston. Much of the media wants him in NY.

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 02:47:57 PM »

Offline cltc5

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7054
  • Tommy Points: 445
If this team isnt mentally mature enough to handle change they shouldn’t get outta the second round. And here we are

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 02:51:05 PM »

Offline Rosco917

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6108
  • Tommy Points: 559
Both Tatum and Brown haven't developed as quickly as anticipated. Brown, after a terrible start, showed signs of finding his game. I'm looking for Jaylen to finally turn the corner this year in terms of consistency and numbers. Tatum is a lose, gangly, kid with uneven effort, that thought he was nearing stardom only to realize the opposite. He doesn't possess the body, the motor or athletism of Brown. Tatum needs time.

Hindsight is 20-20, I know, but Hayward was not ready to begin the season in the starting lineup. It may have hurt his overall comeback as far as confidence. With Hayward having something to prove and an entire offseason to work, we should see the player we signed.

We discovered the shortcomings of Brad Stevens as a coach. Insanity is doing the same things over and over again thinking you'll get a different result. I'm hoping Brad is sane, and he enters this coming season with a different attitude and an adjusted team game plan.

Kyrie Irving discovered being a leader is easier said than done. Especially when you're not playing next to one of the games great players. Will Kyrie run like a baby to a different team, or take the challenge to adjust and remain a Celtic. I have a feeling he'll run in the face of adversity. Kyrie may not be a "foxhole" type of dude.

Terry Rozier thought he really was Scary.

Baynes was always hurt. We need a true center with Baynes as HIS back-up. Give Horford a break playing center and allow him to do what he does best.

I'd love to get Davis too, but without Kyrie being here it may be impossible.

 

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 03:27:05 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Tommy Points: 586
The regular season was what it was.

Stevens had to figure out how to make what he had into the best possible team. This function assigns playing time relative to "production/effectiveness".

Irving - 33
Horford - 31
Tatum - 29
Morris - 28
Smart - 27

Hayward - 26
Brown - 26

Rozier - 22

Baynes - 16
Theis - 13

It all makes sense until you get to Hayward. Thus, you add the "we pay him $30M keep giving him minutes until it comes together."

This act, in and of itself, makes sense, as, I do not believe, Ainge had this season down as the year of the "time for the next banner".

Ten years of rebuilding wasn't going to reach critical mass this year, so, Hayward plays.

Hayward's line in 5 games against the Bucks -
140 minutes - 35 fga - 12 fgm - 37 pts - 8-8 from the line - 15 assists
28 avg - 7 fga - 2.3 fgm - 7.4 pts avg - 3 assists avg

Brown
156 minutes - 55 fga - 27 fgm - 81 pts - 19-21 from the line - 7 assts

Rozier
85 minutes - 35 fga - 10 fgm - 29 pts - 6-7 from the line - 6 assists

Rozier was awful and was rewarded with 17 minutes a game

Hayward was equally bad and essentially wouldn't participate while he was on the floor.

This would be Steven's fault. I suppose he could have given more minutes to Semi or just to everybody else, but, nobody looked good in that series except for Brown.

Irving took 105 shots he made 37 and was just clocked by the Bucks defense at every turn. Did you watch the games? Did you see him make a layup? How about two? It was rough going there.

The Bucks bench played far more minutes, scored more points and were far better on defense than the Celtic's bench.

Game 6
Bucks bench 75 minutes - 30 points
Celtics bench 50 minutes - 7 points


All of the above is Steven's fault.
He played Hayward - wrong
He shortened his rotation putting more on Rozier/Hayward whom were ineffective.
He played some "small ball" for some minutes, but, Bucks would just put three seven footers out there and we saw how that went.

Blame who you will, the Celtics don't have a front court and Milwaukee does. How you blame that on the point guard at 6' 3", "some wings" and a center who played 7 minutes per game and scored 8 points in five games is up to you.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 03:39:24 PM by tstorey_97 »

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 03:30:16 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
cbs

Re: Blame Gordon, Morris and Baynes being hurt....and of course Terry
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 07:27:29 AM »

Offline zeitgeist49

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 101
  • Tommy Points: 19
There's a lot of blame to be spread around to almost everyone on this team. IMO, Horford and Morris were the only ones who didn't under-perform. For me, the three individuals who were given, by far, the most responsibility for the team's success, were Ainge, Stevens and Irving. All three failed miserably, for numerous reasons documented on this forum. Many posters are scapegoating and placing an inordinate amount of blame on Rozier and Haywood. As far as injuries go, this team, overall, was healthier than the 17/18 squad. And we didn't lose our best player to injury like the Pacers did. If Olidipo doesn't get hurt, we most likely would have been the fifth seed and being the road team, could have been looking at a first round exit. If we had reached the ECF or the championship finals, who would have garnered the most credit ? The answer is obvious. Ainge, Stevens and Irving merit most of the blame.