CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: sinbad on February 15, 2013, 04:13:24 AM
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Count me as one who thought that Green got way too much money in his deal. What was once an untradeable contract, now seems to have value. Shockingly, I thought he defended LeBron (and Carmelo) about as well as anyone has this season. At 6-9, he's taller than LeBron and actually bothers his jump shot. He's an asset against Miami when they go small. He's a very good one on one defender but still struggles with rotations though. Like every player who comes through Boston, Green seems to be getting better and better on defense. Now if he can work on his jumpshot, I think he may actually become a bargain. He's also a likeable player that you can't help but root for considering what he's been through.
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One thing, that I have noticed, is that Green seems to be the best player we have for anchoring the defense, when KG sits. I think that he has picked up a lot from Garnett. Not saying that he is DPOY, but compared to Wilcox, Bass, Collins (and Sullinger), he just seem to "get it" on another level.
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Not yet. But he's slowly (for the season) and quickly (for the past 9 games) getting there.
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One thing, that I have noticed, is that Green seems to be the best player we have for anchoring the defense, when KG sits. I think that he has picked up a lot from Garnett. Not saying that he is DPOY, but compared to Wilcox, Bass, Collins (and Sullinger), he just seem to "get it" on another level.
I do see him down low signaling guys to where they should be. He will challenge you at the rim as well as seen with a lot of nice blocks. Love the way he's playing right now looks like he's building up a lot of confidence.
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Yes.
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I too think he is playing better and I too like his shot blocking which has been surprising. He still lacks some agression on offense.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rINhVAqw9I
Showing flashes though. There's him basically overwhelming Luol Deng (99% sure?) with his size and strength.
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One thing, that I have noticed, is that Green seems to be the best player we have for anchoring the defense, when KG sits. I think that he has picked up a lot from Garnett. Not saying that he is DPOY, but compared to Wilcox, Bass, Collins (and Sullinger), he just seem to "get it" on another level.
Well put.
You can see what he has picked up from KG in how hard he plays on pick and rolls and how he challenges shots. His defense has become pretty great now from okay before. This is a huge addition to his game.
On offense, he is practically our only player who consistently has been attacking the rim.
I love his play over this stretch. Just making smart plays.
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I've always been happy with the Green deal and thought, and still think, that it is a fair deal. He is currently playing like we expected him to play when we signed him to the deal. I am very surprised at how well he hits the corner three most of the time and his defense has to be the most shocking thing for me. He has been able to play great one on one D while making his presence know with the shot blocking.
His post up game could still use some work and he only goes right. But since he is so strong and athletic he can afford to go right and make it work.
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New article by Jackie about Jeff
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
We've heard it again and again, but reading it, just crazy what he has come back from. I like the quotes in here from him, about how he likes playing with Pierce vs just replacing him via a sub. Really good stuff.
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I think the wide open running game allows him to utilize his athletic skills better than the half court game.
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Jeff Green's hustle shot blocks are awesome, but he's not anchoring our defense in any way even when he is playing PF nominally.
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what's crazy is I think he'll be even better next year.
i'd be happy wit him learning the post more (how to go left) and finishing better at the rim.
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New article by Jackie about Jeff
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
We've heard it again and again, but reading it, just crazy what he has come back from. I like the quotes in here from him, about how he likes playing with Pierce vs just replacing him via a sub. Really good stuff.
Also, note the part where he's been told it will be 2 years before he fully recovers from the surgery.
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He's getting there.
He's starting to look like the Jeff Green we saw in OKC. 9 gamed is still a small sample but if he continues this performance, he's closing in on being a 9 mil player.
I wanna find out what Vinnie thinks about this...
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New article by Jackie about Jeff
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
We've heard it again and again, but reading it, just crazy what he has come back from. I like the quotes in here from him, about how he likes playing with Pierce vs just replacing him via a sub. Really good stuff.
Also, note the part where he's been told it will be 2 years before he fully recovers from the surgery.
Yeah pretty crazy. Also says he will have days where he is just exhausted or days where he has inexplicable pains.
I've mentioned my father had the same surgery, at a much older age of course, but had to deal with these exact things. It takes a lot of time.
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I'd hate to see him go, but I feel like if Danny is going to make some kind of splashy trade before the deadline, it will almost surely have to involve Jeff Green. He's looking like our biggest asset outside of Pierce, Garnett, and Rondo right now (and I don't think those guys are going anywhere).
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New article by Jackie about Jeff
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
We've heard it again and again, but reading it, just crazy what he has come back from. I like the quotes in here from him, about how he likes playing with Pierce vs just replacing him via a sub. Really good stuff.
Also, note the part where he's been told it will be 2 years before he fully recovers from the surgery.
Yeah pretty crazy. Also says he will have days where he is just exhausted or days where he has inexplicable pains.
I've mentioned my father had the same surgery, at a much older age of course, but had to deal with these exact things. It takes a lot of time.
Makes you wonder what was going on with Green a couple of games ago when he was in the 3rd/4th quarter holding his chest for a while as if in pain on the bench.
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I really love what Jeff has been doing lately. I would love to see him start next year. It looks like he's really close to putting the pieces together to be an impact night in and night out. If its true about his recovery issues, then that explains alot. Either way I think if he keeps playing well that he is a keeper.
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
If you trade Green for Smith you'd have to assume that we'd probably re-sign Smith this summer, meaning it's a trade for the long term and not just this year, meaning that we'd be looking to start Rondo/Pierce/Smith/KG/sg. In that case players like Lee and Terry (or possibly Bradley) would be "parts".
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One word
Yes
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
If you trade Green for Smith you'd have to assume that we'd probably re-sign Smith this summer, meaning it's a trade for the long term and not just this year, meaning that we'd be looking to start Rondo/Pierce/Smith/KG/sg. In that case players like Lee and Terry (or possibly Bradley) would be "parts".
My preference would be Green and Bass. The problem is finding (likely a 3rd) team to take Bass. Lee or Terry would work also, but I'd be real hesitant to do that.
I'm not sure a lineup of Bradley/Lee or Terry/Pierce/Smith/KG could do much this year without any bench to speak of.
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
If you trade Green for Smith you'd have to assume that we'd probably re-sign Smith this summer, meaning it's a trade for the long term and not just this year, meaning that we'd be looking to start Rondo/Pierce/Smith/KG/sg. In that case players like Lee and Terry (or possibly Bradley) would be "parts".
When I say we have "no parts" I quite literally mean that we can't dispense of any warm bodies because we can't really sign replacements. It's not a figurative statement about having parts with actual trade value.
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Yup.
And if he keeps going like this for 8-9 mill a year it will arguably be a bargain contract.
I'm not moving him before the trade deadline.
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Pretty humorous how every thread turns into one about Josh Smith.
How has Josh Smith ever earned his paycheck? Immature. Lazy. Dim. Thug. No thanks.
I seriously doubt either team would be all that interested in swapping the two players...
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
If you trade Green for Smith you'd have to assume that we'd probably re-sign Smith this summer, meaning it's a trade for the long term and not just this year, meaning that we'd be looking to start Rondo/Pierce/Smith/KG/sg. In that case players like Lee and Terry (or possibly Bradley) would be "parts".
When I say we have "no parts" I quite literally mean that we can't dispense of any warm bodies because we can't really sign replacements. It's not a figurative statement about having parts with actual trade value.
It would depend on the trade, wouldn't it? If we sent out more salary than we took in we could probably sign more players. Vet min players, but players nonetheless.
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Jeff Green is starting to up his trade value. I would do a Green(and parts) for Josh Smith trade in a nanosecond.
We have no parts. Last time I checked, our roster consisted of 9 healthy players and Fab Melo.
If you trade Green for Smith you'd have to assume that we'd probably re-sign Smith this summer, meaning it's a trade for the long term and not just this year, meaning that we'd be looking to start Rondo/Pierce/Smith/KG/sg. In that case players like Lee and Terry (or possibly Bradley) would be "parts".
When I say we have "no parts" I quite literally mean that we can't dispense of any warm bodies because we can't really sign replacements. It's not a figurative statement about having parts with actual trade value.
It would depend on the trade, wouldn't it? If we sent out more salary than we took in we could probably sign more players. Vet min players, but players nonetheless.
Only theoretically possible if you trade Green + Bass. Otherwise, you're pretty much tacking on an extra player for each minimum salary slot you'd like to open, which is just a lateral move.
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Green has an efficiency rating of 15.43 for our 7 games in February:-))
Smitty77
So, I would say yes.
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I do not want to part with Green. I think he's on a slow and steady rise to becoming an excellent player for the C's. He's my favorite Celtic to root for at this point, and he's key for match ups against the stud SFs.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages (those are in parens), in per-36 terms:
PPG 15.0 (14.9)
RPG 4.8 (5.8 )
APG 1.4 (1.7)
SPG 0.9 (1.0)
BPG 1.0 (0.7)
FG% .443 (.445)
3p% .340 (.337)
PER 12.7 (12.8 )
Pretty much right on the money.
Even if you look at his recent performance it's not much better than his typical one.
I'm not arguing that he looks much more effective out there...but you don't really see it in these numbers, except that he's gotten back to where he really should have been all along.
I'd like to see how his +/- numbers have evolved over the year.
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I really like hearing that he likes pairing with Pierce. I love that too. He is athletic enough to guard most twos, like he did Butler against CHI, and he can exploit his size advantage on offense pretty efficiently is seems.
And mark me down as opposed to trading Green for Smith. Actually, one of the things I find attractive about acquiring Smith would be to pair him with the steadier Green. Those guys with Rondo would be explosive. The league is about speed and length these days. If we could hold onto Bradley too. That would be a fun team to watch develop.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages (those are in parens), in per-36 terms:
PPG 15.0 (14.9)
RPG 4.8 (5.8 )
APG 1.4 (1.7)
SPG 0.9 (1.0)
BPG 1.0 (0.7)
FG% .443 (.445)
3p% .340 (.337)
PER 12.7 (12.8 )
Pretty much right on the money.
Even if you look at his recent performance it's not much better than his typical one.
I'm not arguing that he looks much more effective out there...but you don't really see it in these numbers, except that he's gotten back to where he really should have been all along.
I'd like to see how his +/- numbers have evolved over the year.
his numbers for this year are skewed because they are averaged out. He played like garbage the first half, and now hes playing great.
So right now he is actually playing above his career average.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages (those are in parens), in per-36 terms:
PPG 15.0 (14.9)
RPG 4.8 (5.8 )
APG 1.4 (1.7)
SPG 0.9 (1.0)
BPG 1.0 (0.7)
FG% .443 (.445)
3p% .340 (.337)
PER 12.7 (12.8 )
Pretty much right on the money.
Even if you look at his recent performance it's not much better than his typical one.
I'm not arguing that he looks much more effective out there...but you don't really see it in these numbers, except that he's gotten back to where he really should have been all along.
I'd like to see how his +/- numbers have evolved over the year.
his numbers for this year are skewed because they are averaged out. He played like garbage the first half, and now hes playing great.
So right now he is actually playing above his career average.
I do not think it is fair to compare Jeff Green's current career with the C's to his past career with the Thunder. Green, in Boston, is in a much different role and he is playing under a different coach, with different types of players.
I feel like Jeff Green has moved further along on the defensive side of the ball compared to the offensive side.
Jeff Green's back to the basket game is still very shaky and usually leads to either a missed hook shot or a turnover. I think he has much more success facing up down on the box and making a drive (and again only a right handed drive). So Jeff's offensive game is limited outside of transition opportunities.
I feel like Green has a lot of room for improvement on the offensive end and that is saying something considering the dude is shooting around 50% (49.4% & 39% threes) for the 2013 calendar year.
Was Jeff Green known for his defense at all in OKC. Were any Thunder player known for their defense outside of Ibaka and maybe Nick Collison?
I feel Jeff's current play, being able to match his career production is a true credit to him and a test of his physical and mental attributes.
I know a lot of people like to focus on rebounding, but let's face it, the Celtics are not a good rebounding team, and we have never been an elite rebounding team for 10 years and more. I do not know if it is by design or what have you, but we are just not that good at generating high rebounding totals.
That being said, Jeff Green's season high is 9 boards and he actually had 15 boards during his first stint with the C's, nearly 2 years ago. In no way am I saying Jeff Green is a great rebounder, nor even a good rebounder. All I am saying is he is capable to get boards if he applies his physical attributes towards that goal. Prior to this season with the C's, I believe Green (9.3%) has had a higher career rebounding % than Rudy Gay (9.4%) and Danny Granger (8.8%), just to name a couple other youngster wing players.
Keep the train rolling Jeff because Pierce has been playing with a pinch nerve for a while now....a few years, that's a chronic issue like Perk's separated shoulders.
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stats are just one aspect. Jeff is bringing energy , emotion, stepping up, taking responsibility , fitting in, getting more rebounds, steals , passing better.........
At this point, he is truly a better all around contributor to this team, than ant time before.
He is showing, like most good players figure out, there is more to the game than how many points you score.
Jeff is a big asset right now, he does what he does so fluid an easy, makes you think he could easily increase his stats
yup...he is bringing it every nite now
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Reading Jackie's article really put things in perspective. I always tried to remind myself he just had heart surgery, but the recovery was really put into focus.
Greens' doctors thought it would take him 2 years to get back in the NBA, and he's been playing all season for us. I always realized there was a tough rehabiliation but nothing as tough as was explained. I just assumed most of it was strengthening his chest and gaining comfort. Struggling to walk, random bouts of extreme fatigue, didn't expect any of that.
Glad for him. We all know he's gotten a ton of flak the past few months and his play lately has been extremely promising. He hasn't come close to his potential yet either.
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New article by Jackie about Jeff
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
We've heard it again and again, but reading it, just crazy what he has come back from. I like the quotes in here from him, about how he likes playing with Pierce vs just replacing him via a sub. Really good stuff.
A quote from the article:
"Green's medical team told him it will be a full two years before he will completely recover. "
Think about that.
As good as he's been the last few weeks, he's likely STILL not all the way healthy.
There has been some speculation in some articles that if anything, once he's fully healed, his cardio functions should actually be _better_ than it was pre-op.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
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I've always been happy with the Green deal and thought, and still think, that it is a fair deal. He is currently playing like we expected him to play when we signed him to the deal. I am very surprised at how well he hits the corner three most of the time and his defense has to be the most shocking thing for me. He has been able to play great one on one D while making his presence know with the shot blocking.
His post up game could still use some work and he only goes right. But since he is so strong and athletic he can afford to go right and make it work.
That's the reason he was brought here. Danny saw the addition of Lebron and Melo to the East and needed a guy behind Pierce who could defend them.
Little did most know that we got one of a handful of guys in the league who could do that. Jeff Green was D'ing up Rip Hamilton the other night!! How many power forwards can do that???
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Reading Jackie's article really put things in perspective. I always tried to remind myself he just had heart surgery, but the recovery was really put into focus.
Greens' doctors thought it would take him 2 years to get back in the NBA, and he's been playing all season for us. I always realized there was a tough rehabiliation but nothing as tough as was explained. I just assumed most of it was strengthening his chest and gaining comfort. Struggling to walk, random bouts of extreme fatigue, didn't expect any of that.
Glad for him. We all know he's gotten a ton of flak the past few months and his play lately has been extremely promising. He hasn't come close to his potential yet either.
Yeah, the talk of his still dealing with exhaustion from his surgery, let alone having been off from playing for a year, is something.
On the other hand, he's clearly been urged to be more aggressive his whole playing life. It apparently hasn't really taken so far, so there's no reason to think that further progress will be easy.
Instead of apparently taking his rebounding incentive clause as something of an insult, it would have been nice if he could have seen it as an unambiguous communication from his employer as to what they want and believe they need from him--and then made it a priority to therefore improve in that area.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be part of his makeup.
I expect him to continue to be something of a mixed bag, though probably improve and become more consistent bit by bit as the organization works on him. I believe he has the talent to be a nice second wheel at the three, with Rondo or someone else as the third 'star', but they still obviously are in need of a next generation top dog from somewhere else.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
You can't play in this league without overpaid players.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages (those are in parens), in per-36 terms:
PPG 15.0 (14.9)
RPG 4.8 (5.8 )
APG 1.4 (1.7)
SPG 0.9 (1.0)
BPG 1.0 (0.7)
FG% .443 (.445)
3p% .340 (.337)
PER 12.7 (12.8 )
Pretty much right on the money.
Even if you look at his recent performance it's not much better than his typical one.
I'm not arguing that he looks much more effective out there...but you don't really see it in these numbers, except that he's gotten back to where he really should have been all along.
I'd like to see how his +/- numbers have evolved over the year.
All this tells me is that numbers aren't everything.
His play is much improved. And his defense (half the game) is way better.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
You can't play in this league without overpaid players.
Or the players aren't overpaid.
It reminds me of how every big man who makes 10 mill or more in the league and isn't a star everyone says is overpaid... so if they are all overpaid, isn't that just the market now?
The market is the market.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
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not to mention Batum, AK47 and Gerald Wallace are all getting paid similar #'s money wise to green.
its just the going rate for a starting calibar SF...it just so happens that on our team he is playing behind a HOF'er
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
Ilasova earned his 8 million dollar per year contract after one break out year during a contract season. He has clearly underperformed after signing that contract.
Gibson has done nothing except be a hustle player to deserve an 8-9 million dollar per year deal.
Only Gallinari has some kind of career history of production to compare to Green's, but Gallo is viewed as a 1st or 2nd option, where as Green has virtually never been higher than 3rd.
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if i was gettin paid what he is and doin the work he doin
i'd be puttin together a new resume to find a new job
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
-
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
More like he's been prevented from doing it.
-
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
You're a funny person. You also have no idea what players are worth in the NBA.
Of course, you also completely ignored the fact that players similar to Green (Basketball Reference definition, not mine) have comparable or richer contracts.
But of course, a dreamland in which Jeff Green is signed to a Chris Duhon type of contact probably exists. Good luck with that.
-
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
You're a funny person. You also have no idea what players are worth in the NBA.
Of course, you also completely ignored the fact that players similar to Green (Basketball Reference definition, not mine) have comparable or richer contracts.
But of course, a dreamland in which Jeff Green is signed to a Chris Duhon type of contact probably exists. Good luck with that.
You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.
I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.
Antagonism won't make you correct.
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You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.
I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.
Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).
You're really not very good at this game ;D
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
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You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.
I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.
Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).
You're really not very good at this game ;D
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html
One team's mistakes don't justify those of others. Referring to how much Duvleavy was overpaid then, or how much Ilyasova is now, won't mean there aren't dozens of examples of far more productive players making less, nor will it mean you have a stong argument for Jeff Green's value. And it certainly won't remove the egg from your face in this discussion.
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You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.
I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.
Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).
You're really not very good at this game ;D
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html
One team's mistakes don't justify those of others. Referring to how much Duvleavy was overpaid then, or how much Ilyasova is now, won't mean there aren't dozens of examples of far more productive players making less, nor will it mean you have a stong argument for Jeff Green's value. And it certainly won't remove the egg from your face in this discussion.
Name five far more productive players per 36 than Jeff Green that are on far less money but not on rookie contracts. Go.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
-
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.
Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.
Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.
Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.
Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.
Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.
Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.
Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.
Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.
Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.
Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.
Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.
Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.
Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.
Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?
I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."
Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.
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Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
No, not really.
Webster and Barnes have never been as productive on a per-minute basis as Green. Corey Brewer has never played more than 20 minutes a game. Neither of them have ever started or played major minutes in the starting lineup of a winning team.
Oh, and also, neither of them is coming off of heart surgery. I know it's very convenient to discuss Jeff Green in the context of his overall season contribution -- but when people say "starting to earn", they really mean what we're seeing in recent weeks.
This "argument" is so patently knee-jerk it's unbelievable that it drew as much discussion as it did.
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You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.
I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.
Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).
You're really not very good at this game ;D
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html
One team's mistakes don't justify those of others. Referring to how much Duvleavy was overpaid then, or how much Ilyasova is now, won't mean there aren't dozens of examples of far more productive players making less, nor will it mean you have a stong argument for Jeff Green's value. And it certainly won't remove the egg from your face in this discussion.
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
When people talk about players being overpaid, it's as if they have some imaginary scale that they set up in their head they are comparing against. How about we look at the realities of the market?
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
A bad price for a certain team? Sure.
And a bad price for a certain player? Sure.
But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.
It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone. Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now. So it's just the market.
Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs. That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price. It's the established price on the market.
Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production. This isn't a coincidence.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
A bad price for a certain team? Sure.
And a bad price for a certain player? Sure.
But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.
It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone. Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now. So it's just the market.
Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs. That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price. It's the established price on the market.
Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production. This isn't a coincidence.
Gentlemen, this is bording on ridiculous. The 'egg on face' poster compared Green to Taj Gibson, whose game has absolutely nothing to do with Green's; Danillo Gallinari, who leads his team in scoring and nearly doubles up Green in most major categories, and Ilyasova. So basically we're comparing Green to one guy -- Ilyasova -- a classic fluke rule guy who to anyone with two eyes is also guaranteed too much money for too long.
Instead of this absurd rationalization about 'the market' through selective choice of a few arbitrary players, look at Green's peers, just as I did above. They demonstrate that Green is -- thus far -- overpriced.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
A bad price for a certain team? Sure.
And a bad price for a certain player? Sure.
But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.
It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone. Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now. So it's just the market.
Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs. That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price. It's the established price on the market.
Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production. This isn't a coincidence.
Gentlemen, this is bording on ridiculous. The 'egg on face' poster compared Green to Taj Gibson, whose game has absolutely nothing to do with Green's; Danillo Gallinari, who leads his team in scoring and nearly doubles up Green in most major categories, and Ilyasova. So basically we're comparing Green to one guy -- Ilyasova -- a classic fluke rule guy who to anyone with two eyes is also guaranteed too much money for too long.
Instead of this absurd rationalization about 'the market' through selective choice of a few arbitrary players, look at Green's peers, just as I did above. They demonstrate that Green is -- thus far -- overpriced.
You think a market setting prices is "absurd"? I think you should study economics. That's how these things work. The salaries are not just made up. If we could pay Jeff Green $5 mill per we would. The market dictates price.
And why did you ignore the best comparison? As I put forth, that is Batum. They have almost identical numbers, age range, and signed the same off season.
It's really funny here you say my justification was absurd, then you just use different comparisons with players to state your angle... what are you getting at? That makes no sense.
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Jeff Green's per-minute averages are about even with what they have always been. Really, he's pretty darn consistent. The difference is that in OKC he was averaging 37 minutes and in Boston he's averaging 25 minutes. At no point has my opinion of Jeff ever changed. I feel the same way about him now as I did at the start of the season... as I did last season... as I did when he played for OKC... as I did when he was a rookie in Seattle.
He's a guy who if he was the 1st or 2nd option, he could come close to scoring 20 points a night (probably on a lotto team). At most he'll be a fringe allstar. Someone who could give you a season averaging 19 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block and a steal. Probably will never make an actual allstar game, though. He's a solid player who should be starting. Unfortunately, he plays the same position as our 2nd best player and there's no way he'll just start getting 37 minutes a night unless he plays out of position or we trade Pierce.
As far as earning his paycheck... his pay is close to appropriate for how he plays. His role isn't appropriate though. You don't pay a backup SF 9 million a year. But Jeff Green is a starting SF playing backup.
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.
Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.
Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.
Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.
Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.
Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?
I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."
Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.
Awesome. Next time I want to be paid twice what my peers are, I'll just tell my boss I'm considerably more talented and "better" than they are -- that i can wipe the floor with them, if you will -- regardless of what the hard data about my work demonstrates. Hopefully it will work for me as well as it has Green!
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Jeff Green's per-minute averages are about even with what they have always been. Really, he's pretty darn consistent. The difference is that in OKC he was averaging 37 minutes and in Boston he's averaging 25 minutes. At no point has my opinion of Jeff ever changed. I feel the same way about him now as I did at the start of the season... as I did last season... as I did when he played for OKC... as I did when he was a rookie in Seattle.
He's a guy who if he was the 1st or 2nd option, he could come close to scoring 20 points a night (probably on a lotto team). At most he'll be a fringe allstar. Someone who could give you a season averaging 19 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block and a steal. Probably will never make an actual allstar game, though. He's a solid player who should be starting. Unfortunately, he plays the same position as our 2nd best player and there's no way he'll just start getting 37 minutes a night unless he plays out of position or we trade Pierce.
Yep. Fringe All-Star is where I've got him
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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages
OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil
No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.
So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum. I had no idea. Post of the year, kozlodev. Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense. Do you even know what the veteran minimum is? Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?
I'd love to be an agent negotating with you. As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million? I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.
I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.
10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.
Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg
Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.
Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...
Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?
Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.
I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.
Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.
Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.
Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.
Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.
Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.
Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.
Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?
I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."
Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.
Awesome. Next time I want to be paid twice what my peers are, I'll just tell my boss I'm considerably more talented and "better" than they are -- that i can wipe the floor with them, if you will -- regardless of what the hard data about my work demonstrates. Hopefully it will work for me as well as it has Green!
Or maybe, how this works, you go to your boss and say Company "X" will pay me salary "Y"... you are not offering me that salary. People who do the same work I do get paid around salary "Y". Would you like to match that offer?
Then they can choose to pay you that salary or not.
The market dictates price. You know that "absurd" thing called economics.
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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green. He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it). He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out). He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston).
Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have. Very capable player. He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset. Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him. You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing. Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured. Or next year if Pierce retires. Or two years from now. But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.
You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing. Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option. If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either. That's foolish.
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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green. He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it). He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out). He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston).
Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have. Very capable player. He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset. Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him. You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing. Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured. Or next year if Pierce retires. Or two years from now. But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.
You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing. Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option. If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either. That's foolish.
Well put. I believe Green is a solid asset, and can earn his price point when he's truly healthy, and he's a starter. And yes, he's been better of late. But he's been highly inconsistent at both ends of the floor in 2013, and his rebounding and passing remain well below par.
Even if the Cs understood they were overpaying to keep Green (which they did), he still needs to improve his productivity to justify his salary. But that past few weeks have certainly been a step in the correct direction.
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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green. He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it). He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out). He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston).
Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have. Very capable player. He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset. Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him. You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing. Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured. Or next year if Pierce retires. Or two years from now. But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.
You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing. Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option. If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either. That's foolish.
Well put. I believe Green is a solid asset, and can earn his price point when he's truly healthy, and he's a starter. And yes, he's been better of late. But he's been highly inconsistent at both ends of the floor in 2013, and his rebounding and passing remain well below par.
Even if the Cs understood they were overpaying to keep Green (which they did), he still needs to improve his productivity to justify his salary. But that past few weeks have certainly been a step in the correct direction.
His increase in production is directly related to his increase in minutes and increase in role. It's something that is out of his control. You can't be surprised that he is doing more February (averaging 30 minutes) than he was in November (averaging 21 minutes). It's not a hard concept to grasp. He's an effective player and he's been effective all year with the minutes and role we have given him. I promise you that Danny Ainge wasn't watching Jeff Green average 8.7 points in 21 minutes and thinking to himself, "Why isn't Jeff playing better?!"... His per-minute numbers have been pretty darn consistent all year.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA
Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price. I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.
If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions. Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA
Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price. I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.
If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions. Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
No, actually he's pretty smart about paying players before their market price goes up. He did it with Perkins, and he did it with Rondo.
A price can never be bad in vacuum. A price can only be bad compared to what the alternatives are. And frankly, people who would rather have Dunleavy, Brewer, or Barnes don't quite understand what the team is doing here.
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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.
If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid. I don't get what is so hard to understand. The market sets its own prices.
Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA
Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price. I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.
If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions. Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
No, actually he's pretty smart about paying players before their market price goes up. He did it with Perkins, and he did it with Rondo.
A price can never be bad in vacuum. A price can only be bad compared to what the alternatives are. And frankly, people who would rather have Dunleavy, Brewer, or Barnes don't quite understand what the team is doing here.
Right on here.
I was bringing up the market price earlier through this, and I certainly would never suggest there haven't been bad contracts.
As kozlodoev says, these salaries don't come out of a vacuum. Alternatives have to be considered and what else was going on at the same time.
Everything is relative. You can only say something is bad if you have relative comparisons for what could have been had otherwise.
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Btw, Jackie Mac has an awesome piece on Jeff up on ESPN right now: http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy. One thing I didn't know is that doctors have said it will take 2 full years for Green to be recovered from the surgery. Might have something to do with why he's been inconsistent at times with his energy (granted, he has had some issues with this throughout his career, but given his focus on being aggressive this year and getting regular minutes, I don't think its a lack of effort on his part).
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Maybe it takes Jeff Green's body only 1 year or 1 year and half to make a full recover? Not everyone heals or recovers at the same rate.
Look at Adrian Peterson.
Hopefully Rondo recovers well and fast too.
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I'm starting to think that if you are a GM who believed in Jeff Green after his surgery, then the smart thing to do would have been to give him a long-term contract so that he doesn't feel the pressure to force himself to recover faster than he is physically able to and the worst thing you could have done would have been to try to sign him to a one-year deal and ask him to prove he is healthy.
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Absolutely he is.
Over his last 10 games (in 30 MPG) Green is averaging:
- 14 PPG
- 4 RPG
- 1.3 APG
- 51% FG
- 40% 3PT
- 89% FT
The 4 rebounds and 1.3 assists is nothing spectacular, but his offensive efficiency off the bench combined with his outstanding defense over the past month or two have been worthy of his contract.
To put it into perspective both Terry and Harden averated around 15 PPG to 16 PPG in similar minutes when they were playing 6MOTY basketball. If Green plays at this pace for the rest of the season he will play himself well into 6MOTY contention, no doubt about it.
Looking at the money Terry was making in Dallas, Green is pretty much earning that contact as long as he continues to play '6MOTY' calibre basketball for our second unit.
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Absolutely he is.
Over his last 10 games (in 30 MPG) Green is averaging:
- 14 PPG
- 4 RPG
- 1.3 APG
- 51% FG
- 40% 3PT
- 89% FT
The 4 rebounds and 1.3 assists is nothing spectacular, but his offensive efficiency off the bench combined with his outstanding defense over the past month or two have been worthy of his contract.
To put it into perspective both Terry and Harden averated around 15 PPG to 16 PPG in similar minutes when they were playing 6MOTY basketball. If Green plays at this pace for the rest of the season he will play himself well into 6MOTY contention, no doubt about it.
Looking at the money Terry was making in Dallas, Green is pretty much earning that contact as long as he continues to play '6MOTY' calibre basketball for our second unit.
IMO, Jarret Jack and Jamal have a better shot at it.