LeBron doesn't want to change his game because it would make him "a roleplayer"

[Roy H.]

I don't see Jordan ever change his game to support Pippen. It was the other way around.

I disagree.  Jordan changed his game for the betterment of his team, going from a guy who averaged around 33/8/8 to a player putting up 30/5/5.  Jordan was willing to give up the ball more, playing within the offense rather than a guy who needed the ball for the first 20 seconds of the 24 second clock.  Obviously the offense was still run around Jordan, but he scored less and got fewer assists and rebounds, because he learned to trust his teammates, not only to make open baskets, but to do the right things when needed.  Jordan also became a better outside shooter and better defender as time went on.

Now, Jordan probably didn't change his game drastically, but he absolutely did modify his player to better mesh with his teammates, which is all anybody is asking Lebron to do.

  A few points though. MJ was older than James when he changed his game. His numbers went down but his usage% was about the same between those two years. And the change was slight, so one could argue that the change to LeBron's game this year is as significant as the change to MJ's game. One big difference was that the Bulls roster was continually tailored to MJ's game while LeBron is now on a team that isn't conducive to his game.

LOL....Exactly what team would be conducive to the messiah's game?  He's the ultimate role player already....He plays every role on his team to the detriment of his teammates.

  Better shooters maybe? Better defenders as well. Cleveland had the best record in the league a couple of years in a row and they've gone deep in the playoffs more than once. You act like he's been hanging around 40 wins and getting beat in the first round every year.

The best illustration is Shaq.  When Shaq is on the court this season, his teammates play to his unique talents to the benefit of the team.  When Shaq was on the court last season, the messiah played to the messiah's talents and Shaq's talent was neutralized.

  Shaq is playing with significantly better players at 3 of the other 4 starting spots. Want to compare the attention KG and RA get to what AV and Anthony Parker command? And LeBron can't run an offense or distribute the ball like Rondo, but then only a couple of people in the league can and they're all pgs.

Teams that the messiah plays for...(And like Iverson, there will be many teams he plays for) Will continually tinker, retune, and overhaul their rosters so they're "conducive" to the messiah's game....With the same result.

You can't even make a serious argument that MJ's teams were as successful as LeBron's teams at the same ages. LeBron's biggest problem is impatience, wanting the quick fix every season instead of letting his GM build for the long term. And, again, he's had much more success than MJ, both in the regular season and in the playoffs at the same point in their careers.

Jordan, Jabbar, Duncan, Bird, Garnett, Bryant, etc care/cared about winning above their marketability. The difference between them and the messiah is that their marketability was a result of their team's success.

  Jordan was as interested if not more interested in stats than winning in the early portions of his career. Before Bird's back problem and Magic's HIV people would have chuckled if you claimed MJ was in their class of players.

Jordan was a killer man. He wanted your heart! James is not. It's different. Jordan wanted you leaving the game believing you cant beat him. James wants you to leave talking about his dunks and triple doubles. Also Jordan won a ring in year 7. James is ringless in year 8.

  MJ went to college for 3 years. He won the title when he was roughly the age LeBron will be during the 2011-2012 season. Again, you're comparing LeBron to a player that, at the same age, was putting up somewhat similar stats and having less success during the regular season and the playoffs. MJ comes out ahead because of what he did lateer in his career, not because of what he accomplished at the same age.

At the same time, the league was different back then.  The league had better teams to face in the regular season, and the teams MJ lost to in the playoffs were better than the teams Lebron has lost to thus far, as well.  He got knocked off twice by the mid-80s Celtics, and then struggled to get by the Bad Boy Pistons.

The current Celtics and the Magic are good teams, but they certainly weren't of the caliber of the 1986 Celtics, and the Magic aren't in the class of the old Pistons teams.

  After 1986 the Bulls lost 4 more times before they won the title. The Celts in '08 and last year were easily the equal of any team they would have faced in that time.

The 1987 Celtics team was better than the 2008 or 2010 squad, and I think it's arguable whether the 2010 Celtics team was better than the Bad Boy Pistons, who the Bulls lost to three times.  I'd give the 2008 team the edge over the Pistons, but would take Detroit over any other team that Lebron has lost to.

[indeedproceed]

The defending LeBron train is a pretty tedious ride at this point, but I agree with pretty much everything tim is saying here. LeBron is hands down the most talented all-around player in the NBA. There are better scorers, there are better passers, and there are better defenders...heck there are even probably better athletes. But nobody in the NBA puts it all together on LeBron's level, or even really that close.

I think what Tracy McGrady said recently was pretty spot on:

Tracy McGrady spoke about the struggles of the Miami Heat on Sunday and says he's not surprised because LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are not a good fit.

"It's what I expected," McGrady told Booth Newspapers. "You've got two guys (James and Wade) that really don't mix. I mean, they're the same type of player. They just don't complement each other."

McGrady says Miami's big three, which includes Chris Bosh, can't be compared to the Celtics big three of Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

"If you look at Boston's big three, they're traditional guys," McGrady said. "You've got a true shooting guard, you have a true small forward and you have a true power forward. You've got a shooting guard that doesn't need the ball. In their case, both of those guys need the ball. They're not great outside shooters, so they just can't stand out there and wait for one to pass the ball and knock down an open shot."

McGrady says James should have signed with the Bulls, if he was going to leave the Cavaliers.

"I feel like LeBron should have went to Chicago if he was going to leave," McGrady told the New York Post. "I'm not mad he left. [Chicago was] a better decision and place and fit as far as chemistry-wise. You can't just go somewhere and get that kind of chemistry he had in Cleveland. If he was to be with a team where he fit and chemistry would've been right, it would've been Chicago."

LeBron does need the ball an awful lot, its how his game has worked for the past 8 years, and as someone said before, he's not a good enough outside shooter to play that role (although I'm confident he could be with the work). I'm not denying that something needs to 'click' for him, but I imagine that Chicago would be around 13-2 with LeBron, while Miami is 9-8. Chicago has the players for that.

[MBunge]

So they went from the best record in the NBA and now they are sub-500?  


Yeah, that team is going places.  Good thing they are in the East where sub 500 teams can make the playoffs to be sacrificed to the number 1 seed.  


Cleveland stinks and are playing over their head right now.  They want to prove they do not need Lebron.  They will crash back down.  (well crash as hard as a sub 500 team can)

SNIP

The Heat need a strategy.  Their best player is Lebron.  It should be built around him, not all three.  

If Cleveland can be 7-9 without LeBron but LeBron can only be 9-8 with Wade and Bosh, what does that say?

If LeBron can't function on the court without turning a scoring champion and a 20/10 guy into role players, it seems to me that he's as much of a problem as anything else in Miami.

Mike

That Wade and Bosh need to do a better job or be put in a better position to help Lebron.  The Heat have shown at points of being scary.  It's when they put the ball in Lebrons hands.


No star can win if the team plays three different offenses depending on who they want to score.  There needs to be a plan in place that takes advantage of the teams strengths. 


Would the Celtics have worked if Pierce or Ray demanded the ball go through them?  No. 



If the Heat want to win, they need to pick a single strategy.  An offense going through Lebron has proven capable of taking a team to the NBA finals without a good 2nd option.  It is up to Wade and Bosh to fit themselves into that offense so they can support Lebron while still playing like stars. 




Oh, and they need depth and a PG. 

1.  What was the whole point of putting Bron, Wade and Bosh on the same team if they're simply going to play exactly the same way the Cavaliers did with Bron?  The idea that Wade needs to remake himself into a better version of Mo Williams because that's the only way to make LeBron happy is ridiculous.

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

3.  Allen Iverson took a team to the NBA finals and, unlke LeBron, he actually manage to win a game there.  Is Iverson really the model you think successful teams should follow?

4.  Wade's a scorer.  Bosh is a scorer.  LeBron, however, is supposed to be more than that.  Heck, he's supposed to be able to do everything!  When I pointed out that the Heat probably would have been better off spending money on a good PG instead of Mike Miller, the response I got was that LeBron would be the Heat PG.  After all, Magic did for the Lakers so how hard could it be?  If LeBron is such a great passer and doesn't really care about scoring, why isn't he working to get Wade and Bosh the best looks while he plays the third option on offense and concentrates on defense and rebounding?

5.  Jordan would have never won 6 rings if people made as many excuses for him as they do for LeBron.

Mike

[Fafnir]

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

[MBunge]

So they went from the best record in the NBA and now they are sub-500?  


Yeah, that team is going places.  Good thing they are in the East where sub 500 teams can make the playoffs to be sacrificed to the number 1 seed.  


Cleveland stinks and are playing over their head right now.  They want to prove they do not need Lebron.  They will crash back down.  (well crash as hard as a sub 500 team can)

SNIP

The Heat need a strategy.  Their best player is Lebron.  It should be built around him, not all three.  

If Cleveland can be 7-9 without LeBron but LeBron can only be 9-8 with Wade and Bosh, what does that say?

  For starters, it says that making your 2nd best player a ball dominant slasher without much of an outside shot doesn't complement his game. Another way to look at it, though, is to see how close Cleveland comes to 60+ wins without him.

  How many fewer wins than last year are you expecting from Cleveland?

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Cleveland at or just slightly over .500 when the season ends.  I'd expect them to win at least somewhere around 35 games, but that's largely because LeBron left and didn't get replaced with anyone good.  Make Gerald Wallace the starting small forward in Cleveland instead of Joey Graham and they're easily a team that wins more than 41 games.

Bron is the greatest player in the game right now.  Obviously, the Cavs are going to be a lot worse without him.  But certain people talk about this Cavs team like they were a collection of crap that was dragged to 60+ wins only through the awesome wonder that is King James.  The reality is that the Cavs starting lineup this year are all guys who could either start for most teams in the league or be the best guy off the bench.  They're not worthless garbage.

Mike

[wdleehi]

So they went from the best record in the NBA and now they are sub-500?  


Yeah, that team is going places.  Good thing they are in the East where sub 500 teams can make the playoffs to be sacrificed to the number 1 seed.  


Cleveland stinks and are playing over their head right now.  They want to prove they do not need Lebron.  They will crash back down.  (well crash as hard as a sub 500 team can)

SNIP

The Heat need a strategy.  Their best player is Lebron.  It should be built around him, not all three.  

If Cleveland can be 7-9 without LeBron but LeBron can only be 9-8 with Wade and Bosh, what does that say?

If LeBron can't function on the court without turning a scoring champion and a 20/10 guy into role players, it seems to me that he's as much of a problem as anything else in Miami.

Mike

That Wade and Bosh need to do a better job or be put in a better position to help Lebron.  The Heat have shown at points of being scary.  It's when they put the ball in Lebrons hands.


No star can win if the team plays three different offenses depending on who they want to score.  There needs to be a plan in place that takes advantage of the teams strengths. 


Would the Celtics have worked if Pierce or Ray demanded the ball go through them?  No. 



If the Heat want to win, they need to pick a single strategy.  An offense going through Lebron has proven capable of taking a team to the NBA finals without a good 2nd option.  It is up to Wade and Bosh to fit themselves into that offense so they can support Lebron while still playing like stars. 




Oh, and they need depth and a PG. 

1.  What was the whole point of putting Bron, Wade and Bosh on the same team if they're simply going to play exactly the same way the Cavaliers did with Bron?  The idea that Wade needs to remake himself into a better version of Mo Williams because that's the only way to make LeBron happy is ridiculous.

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

3.  Allen Iverson took a team to the NBA finals and, unlke LeBron, he actually manage to win a game there.  Is Iverson really the model you think successful teams should follow?

4.  Wade's a scorer.  Bosh is a scorer.  LeBron, however, is supposed to be more than that.  Heck, he's supposed to be able to do everything!  When I pointed out that the Heat probably would have been better off spending money on a good PG instead of Mike Miller, the response I got was that LeBron would be the Heat PG.  After all, Magic did for the Lakers so how hard could it be?  If LeBron is such a great passer and doesn't really care about scoring, why isn't he working to get Wade and Bosh the best looks while he plays the third option on offense and concentrates on defense and rebounding?

5.  Jordan would have never won 6 rings if people made as many excuses for him as they do for LeBron.

Mike

1)  What's the point of signing a Lebron if you put him in a position to fail?

2)  I wouldn't play any of the Miami PGs.  They are all terrible.  Lebron is a better playmaker.  Put the ball in his hand and have Wade and Bosh learn to play off him.  If they can't trade them in the off-season to find stars that can.  It doesn't mean they become bit players.  They are still stars putting up star number (just at a lower rate)

3)  AI took a defensive team to the finals because the East was unbelievable bad that year.  He had to beat the Carter Raptors, the Ray/Big Dog/Cassell Bucks and I believe the Isiah coached Pacers (I could be wrong on the third team).  Hardly the murders row Lebron had to face the past few years.  (Detroit, SA, Boston (twice), Orlando)  Plus, no one said run the AI type offense, just put the ball in Lebron's hands.

4) Lebron is a scorer that can do more with the ball.  He is the hardest guy on that team to defend.  He will move the most defenders when the ball is in his hand.  So why take the ball out of his hand?  They should be picking and rolling teams to death with Lebron and Bosh.  

6) Jordon would have never won 6 rings if he wasn't in an offense that put the ball in his hands.  

[Roy H.]

The defending LeBron train is a pretty tedious ride at this point, but I agree with pretty much everything tim is saying here. LeBron is hands down the most talented all-around player in the NBA. There are better scorers, there are better passers, and there are better defenders...heck there are even probably better athletes. But nobody in the NBA puts it all together on LeBron's level, or even really that close.

I think what Tracy McGrady said recently was pretty spot on:

Tracy McGrady spoke about the struggles of the Miami Heat on Sunday and says he's not surprised because LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are not a good fit.

"It's what I expected," McGrady told Booth Newspapers. "You've got two guys (James and Wade) that really don't mix. I mean, they're the same type of player. They just don't complement each other."

McGrady says Miami's big three, which includes Chris Bosh, can't be compared to the Celtics big three of Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

"If you look at Boston's big three, they're traditional guys," McGrady said. "You've got a true shooting guard, you have a true small forward and you have a true power forward. You've got a shooting guard that doesn't need the ball. In their case, both of those guys need the ball. They're not great outside shooters, so they just can't stand out there and wait for one to pass the ball and knock down an open shot."

McGrady says James should have signed with the Bulls, if he was going to leave the Cavaliers.

"I feel like LeBron should have went to Chicago if he was going to leave," McGrady told the New York Post. "I'm not mad he left. [Chicago was] a better decision and place and fit as far as chemistry-wise. You can't just go somewhere and get that kind of chemistry he had in Cleveland. If he was to be with a team where he fit and chemistry would've been right, it would've been Chicago."

LeBron does need the ball an awful lot, its how his game has worked for the past 8 years, and as someone said before, he's not a good enough outside shooter to play that role (although I'm confident he could be with the work). I'm not denying that something needs to 'click' for him, but I imagine that Chicago would be around 13-2 with LeBron, while Miami is 9-8. Chicago has the players for that.

TMac sounded right on until he threw in the Chicago example.  I disagree that Chicago would have been a substantially better fit in hindsight.

Lebron would have been playing alongside Noah, maybe Boozer, Deng, and Rose.

Rose is a very similar player to Wade.  They're both at their best as scoring guards with the ball in their hands.  Neither is a great outside shooter.  Rose is probably a better passer and Wade is probably a better defender, but I don't think the difference is a huge one. 

Boozer vs. Bosh is probably close to another wash.  I like Boozer's post game, but neither are great defenders.  I think Boozer is feistier and not as soft, so I guess maybe a slight edge to Boozer.

The rest of Chicago's starting lineup is better, but the problem is that neither Noah nor Deng necessarily play to Lebron's strengths.  Both are good defending, poor shooting guys.  In essence, Chicago would have been left with Lebron as the best outside shooter in the starting lineup.  I don't think that would have been a recipe for success.

Once Chicago gets Boozer back, I think they're one Ray Allen type away from championship contending.  However, I don't think Lebron would have put them over the top, as I think he would have stifled Rose and inevitably the team would be burned by having no outside shooters. 

[MBunge]

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

Rondo in '08 wasn't anything like he is today, but he still averaged 29.9 minutes a game and dished out 5.1 assists.  Cassell also averaged 17.6 minutes a game and 2.1 assists.  So, for the vast majority of the game, Boston had a traditional PG on the floor and they did do a lot to run the offense.

Compare that to Miami, where Arroyo is averaging 21.8 minutes and 1.8 assists, Eddie is getting 20.6 minutes and 1.3 assists and Chalmers is only playing 8.5 minutes but averaging 1.5 assists.  Hmm.  Rondo by himself averaged more assists than all Miami's point guards put together.

Mike

[BballTim]

I don't see Jordan ever change his game to support Pippen. It was the other way around.

I disagree.  Jordan changed his game for the betterment of his team, going from a guy who averaged around 33/8/8 to a player putting up 30/5/5.  Jordan was willing to give up the ball more, playing within the offense rather than a guy who needed the ball for the first 20 seconds of the 24 second clock.  Obviously the offense was still run around Jordan, but he scored less and got fewer assists and rebounds, because he learned to trust his teammates, not only to make open baskets, but to do the right things when needed.  Jordan also became a better outside shooter and better defender as time went on.

Now, Jordan probably didn't change his game drastically, but he absolutely did modify his player to better mesh with his teammates, which is all anybody is asking Lebron to do.

  A few points though. MJ was older than James when he changed his game. His numbers went down but his usage% was about the same between those two years. And the change was slight, so one could argue that the change to LeBron's game this year is as significant as the change to MJ's game. One big difference was that the Bulls roster was continually tailored to MJ's game while LeBron is now on a team that isn't conducive to his game.

LOL....Exactly what team would be conducive to the messiah's game?  He's the ultimate role player already....He plays every role on his team to the detriment of his teammates.

  Better shooters maybe? Better defenders as well. Cleveland had the best record in the league a couple of years in a row and they've gone deep in the playoffs more than once. You act like he's been hanging around 40 wins and getting beat in the first round every year.

The best illustration is Shaq.  When Shaq is on the court this season, his teammates play to his unique talents to the benefit of the team.  When Shaq was on the court last season, the messiah played to the messiah's talents and Shaq's talent was neutralized.

  Shaq is playing with significantly better players at 3 of the other 4 starting spots. Want to compare the attention KG and RA get to what AV and Anthony Parker command? And LeBron can't run an offense or distribute the ball like Rondo, but then only a couple of people in the league can and they're all pgs.

Teams that the messiah plays for...(And like Iverson, there will be many teams he plays for) Will continually tinker, retune, and overhaul their rosters so they're "conducive" to the messiah's game....With the same result.

You can't even make a serious argument that MJ's teams were as successful as LeBron's teams at the same ages. LeBron's biggest problem is impatience, wanting the quick fix every season instead of letting his GM build for the long term. And, again, he's had much more success than MJ, both in the regular season and in the playoffs at the same point in their careers.

Jordan, Jabbar, Duncan, Bird, Garnett, Bryant, etc care/cared about winning above their marketability. The difference between them and the messiah is that their marketability was a result of their team's success.

  Jordan was as interested if not more interested in stats than winning in the early portions of his career. Before Bird's back problem and Magic's HIV people would have chuckled if you claimed MJ was in their class of players.

Jordan was a killer man. He wanted your heart! James is not. It's different. Jordan wanted you leaving the game believing you cant beat him. James wants you to leave talking about his dunks and triple doubles. Also Jordan won a ring in year 7. James is ringless in year 8.

  MJ went to college for 3 years. He won the title when he was roughly the age LeBron will be during the 2011-2012 season. Again, you're comparing LeBron to a player that, at the same age, was putting up somewhat similar stats and having less success during the regular season and the playoffs. MJ comes out ahead because of what he did lateer in his career, not because of what he accomplished at the same age.

At the same time, the league was different back then.  The league had better teams to face in the regular season, and the teams MJ lost to in the playoffs were better than the teams Lebron has lost to thus far, as well.  He got knocked off twice by the mid-80s Celtics, and then struggled to get by the Bad Boy Pistons.

The current Celtics and the Magic are good teams, but they certainly weren't of the caliber of the 1986 Celtics, and the Magic aren't in the class of the old Pistons teams.

  After 1986 the Bulls lost 4 more times before they won the title. The Celts in '08 and last year were easily the equal of any team they would have faced in that time.

The 1987 Celtics team was better than the 2008 or 2010 squad, and I think it's arguable whether the 2010 Celtics team was better than the Bad Boy Pistons, who the Bulls lost to three times.  I'd give the 2008 team the edge over the Pistons, but would take Detroit over any other team that Lebron has lost to.

  The 87 team had health issues in the playoffs and you're underestimating the 2008 team, which had one of the best seasons in the history of the franchise. And the 2010 Celts were comparable to those Pistons teams. I'd call a series like that a tossup, with the Celts having better starters and the Pistons having better subs.

[BballTim]

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

  They ran the ball more through Rondo as the season went on, especially in the playoffs. Rajon's role was clearly less prominent than it is now, but don't forget how the team struggled when he was injured during that December/January stretch.

[MBunge]

1)  What's the point of signing a Lebron if you put him in a position to fail?

2)  I wouldn't play any of the Miami PGs.  They are all terrible.  Lebron is a better playmaker.  Put the ball in his hand and have Wade and Bosh learn to play off him.  If they can't trade them in the off-season to find stars that can.  It doesn't mean they become bit players.  They are still stars putting up star number (just at a lower rate)

3)  AI took a defensive team to the finals because the East was unbelievable bad that year.  He had to beat the Carter Raptors, the Ray/Big Dog/Cassell Bucks and I believe the Isiah coached Pacers (I could be wrong on the third team).  Hardly the murders row Lebron had to face the past few years.  (Detroit, SA, Boston (twice), Orlando)  Plus, no one said run the AI type offense, just put the ball in Lebron's hands.

4) Lebron is a scorer that can do more with the ball.  He is the hardest guy on that team to defend.  He will move the most defenders when the ball is in his hand.  So why take the ball out of his hand?  They should be picking and rolling teams to death with Lebron and Bosh.  

6) Jordon would have never won 6 rings if he wasn't in an offense that put the ball in his hands.  

1.  How is asking LeBron to play the same way Larry Bird played putting him "in a position to fail"?

2.  Uh, what Miami is doing right now is pretty much exactly what you're describing and it ain't working all that well.

3.  What the hell is the difference between running the AI offense and "putting the ball in LeBron's hands"?

4.  You take the ball out of his hands because...

A.  We've seen what happens when the ball is in LeBron's hands all the time and the result is consistently losing in the playoffs to the other contenders.

B.  If LeBron is so great, it ought to be easier for him to adjust to not having the ball in his hands than either Wade or Bosh.

5.  While Jordan often bailed out Phil's triangle offense the same way Kobe does today, the idea that offense consisted of "putting the ball in Jordan's hands" is beyond silly.

LeBron is the new communism.  He can never fail.  He can only be failed.

Mike

[indeedproceed]

3.  What the hell is the difference between running the AI offense and "putting the ball in LeBron's hands"?

AI had only 6 of 14 NBA seasons where he averaged more assists per game than LeBron's career average. He's surpassed his career assist average and elevated it each of the past 4 seasons. AI was served best by having a defensive team that could cover up his mistakes on the offensive end and a terrible, awful, no good, very bad Eastern Conference. I'm not saying AI wasn't a legit MVP winner, and a warrior, and a legit All-NBA player, because he was...but the conference was baaaaad.

[Fafnir]

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

  They ran the ball more through Rondo as the season went on, especially in the playoffs. Rajon's role was clearly less prominent than it is now, but don't forget how the team struggled when he was injured during that December/January stretch.

In the Lakers series they ran everything through KG/Paul, same for the Cavs series. I haven't rewatched the Pistons series in a long time so I can't recall what the C's did for that series.

He was involved but to hold up the 07-08 C's as a PG run offense is wrong.

[Fafnir]

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

Rondo in '08 wasn't anything like he is today, but he still averaged 29.9 minutes a game and dished out 5.1 assists.  Cassell also averaged 17.6 minutes a game and 2.1 assists.  So, for the vast majority of the game, Boston had a traditional PG on the floor and they did do a lot to run the offense.

Compare that to Miami, where Arroyo is averaging 21.8 minutes and 1.8 assists, Eddie is getting 20.6 minutes and 1.3 assists and Chalmers is only playing 8.5 minutes but averaging 1.5 assists.  Hmm.  Rondo by himself averaged more assists than all Miami's point guards put together.

Mike

They didn't run the offense through him though, Rodno's a better player than Arroyo and produced more. But saying that the Heat should follow the 07-08 Celts in doing something the Celtics didn't do, is the wrong tact for the Heat to improve.

[LilRip]

6) Jordon would have never won 6 rings if he wasn't in an offense that put the ball in his hands.  

this statement is wrong. very wrong. perhaps the most correct part about this statement is that you spelled his name as "Jordon" which is still very very wrong.

did the Cavs offense last year look like the Bulls offense in their championship runs? i didn't think so.