Author Topic: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?  (Read 3731 times)

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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 09:43:30 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Irving for Sexton is what it ultimately has come down to

If the Celts don't make it far in the playoffs and Irving walks after this season, would you consider the Celts losing the trade with the Cavs?

**In hindsight, I don't think many wouldn't have made that trade 9 out of 10 times

But Sexton looks amazing and on his way to become a future star

This type of short term gain sacrificing long term stability could result again If the Celts trade Tatum + Brown for AD .... reminder

If the Cs make the Finals, then no, because you are trying to win a Banner and there was no way IT was getting them there, nor Sexton at this point

If they get bounced early, then yes, because they easily could be doing that with Sexton at point

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 10:11:46 PM »

Online Moranis

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This has been discussed at length in any number of the Irving trades.  Did we really need another one of these threads?  For now, I'm not going to merge it, but it would be nice if people just didn't start a trade that probably pretty clearly exists elsewhere on the blog.

As for the premise, the trade is theoretically a lot more than just Irving for Sexton when you consider what the Cavs did with all the pieces of the trade (and they still have Zizic on their roster who has actually looked half way decent of late). 

As a reminder the initial trade was Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2020 2nd

These are the trades the Cavs have made involving those pieces since the trade

Thomas, Frye, 2018 1st (25) FOR Clarkson, Nance

Crowder, Rose, Shumpert, 2020 2nd, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, 2.1 million cash FOR Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis

Hill, Dekker (who they got with cash and a swap of unlikely to play in the league players), 2021 2nd FOR Delladedova, Henson, lotto protected 2021 1st (MIL), 2021 2nd (MIL), 2022 2nd (WAS)

Hood FOR Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, 2023 2nd

Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, Burks (who they got with 2 2nd's for Korver) FOR Knight, Chriss, 2019 1st, 2022 2nd

They then re-signed Stauskas after Houston cut him.

So if you put all of that together you get a massive trade that shakes out like this:


Irving, Frye, 2018 1st (25), Rose, Shumpert, Dekker, Korver, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to 2 players that likely won't see the league

FOR

Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2019 1st (HOU), 2021 1st (MIL), Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Dellavedova, 2021 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2023 2nd, rights to 1 player that likely won't see the league plus they re-signed Stauskas and Frye


Now obviously you can't just do that as these trades probably wouldn't have been available to Boston, but at the end of the day the Cavs essentially traded Irving, Korver, 25, and some bench fodder for Sexton, Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Delly, 2 future 1st's and a bunch of future 2nd's.  Trade is a lot different when you consider the potential trade possibilities that might have been there for Boston had it not made the trade then. 

That said, if Irving stays, trade was absolutely worth it for Boston.  If he leaves, it was not, especially given Irving missed last year's playoffs.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 09:43:00 AM by Moranis »
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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2019, 10:18:41 PM »

Offline gpap

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Nope they didn't.

Danny Ainge was simply doing his job by swinging for the fences by trying to acquire a superstar talent like Kyrie.

Even if Kyrie walks, I'd still do the trade all over again.

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2019, 11:01:00 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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That means we give Isaiah Thomas the brinks truck, and see him sit out for a season and watch him play like a 3rd string PG when he returns.

:/

That seems extremely unlikely.  Even if he stayed with Boston he would have missed most of his contract season due to that injury and not really had leverage to command a "Brinks Truck".  At best he would maybe have gotten Danny to give him a 1 or 2 year deal on mid-high money (Think Amir/Jerebko contracts) as a hedge for both sides on his recovery while still at least rewarding him somewhat for past value.   Almost zero chance he would have gotten a "Brinks truck" contract.

In this alternate world we would have gotten a lot longer look at Rozier.  Maybe Hayward doesn't get injured.  Who knows how the season might have gone?
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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2019, 11:13:18 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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Is a Kyrie S&T a possibility?

I always wondered why Gordon didn't do a S&T when he came here.. wasn't he eligible for a 5 year deal?
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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2019, 11:20:27 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Is a Kyrie S&T a possibility?

I always wondered why Gordon didn't do a S&T when he came here.. wasn't he eligible for a 5 year deal?
I think it's possible, but why in the world would Kyrie do that, as opposed to just signing there in free agency? He'd just be weakening the team he plans on playing for.
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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2019, 11:40:32 PM »

Online SparzWizard

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Is a Kyrie S&T a possibility?

I always wondered why Gordon didn't do a S&T when he came here.. wasn't he eligible for a 5 year deal?
I think it's possible, but why in the world would Kyrie do that, as opposed to just signing there in free agency? He'd just be weakening the team he plans on playing for.

He was an unrestricted FA, no? And the Celtics had to give up Avery Bradley to create cap space for him.


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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2019, 11:47:02 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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Is a Kyrie S&T a possibility?

I always wondered why Gordon didn't do a S&T when he came here.. wasn't he eligible for a 5 year deal?
I think it's possible, but why in the world would Kyrie do that, as opposed to just signing there in free agency? He'd just be weakening the team he plans on playing for.
Depends on which team he wants to go to he may rather do a sign and trade. The most likely teams ranked:
1 - Knick’s - no need to do sign and trade
2 - lakers - no need to do sign and trade unless lakers win the lottery and their rookie is slotted to make more than ~$3M ... then it would be beneficial for lakers to do a sign and trade ( using rondo and or Stevenson) then trade for another star (Davis ) with the salaries of the said rookie and whoever is needed to make it work .
3 - clippers - no need to do S&T but if they are getting Kawhi then they should use galinaris and other small salary to get Irving
4 - Houston - Can only happen with S&T for Paul or Gordon
5 - Detroit - can only happen using S&T for Jackson or Drummond
6 - Philly - can mostly happen using S&T unless Butler leaves ... highly unlikely Danny does this however... maybe only for Simmons and Redick ...
All in all chances are S&T won’t happen

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 01:11:00 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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This has been discussed at length in any number of the Irving trades.  Did we really need another one of these threads?  For now, I'm not going to merge it, but it would be nice if people just didn't start a trade that probably pretty clearly exists elsewhere on the blog.

As for the premise, the trade is theoretically a lot more than just Irving for Sexton when you consider what the Cavs did with all the pieces of the trade (and they still have Zizic on their roster who has actually looked half way decent of late). 

As a reminder the initial trade was Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2020 2nd

These are the trades the Cavs have made involving those pieces since the trade

Thomas, Frye, 2018 1st (25) FOR Clarkson, Nance

Crowder, Rose, Shumpert, 2020 2nd, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, 2.1 million cash FOR Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis

Hill, Dekker, 2021 2nd FOR Delladedova, Henson, lotto protected 2021 1st (MIL), 2021 2nd (MIL), 2022 2nd (WAS)

Hood FOR Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, 2023 2ndThis has been discussed at length in any number of the Irving trades.  Did we really need another one of these threads?  For now, I'm not going to merge it, but it would be nice if people just didn't start a trade that probably pretty clearly exists elsewhere on the blog.

As for the premise, the trade is theoretically a lot more than just Irving for Sexton when you consider what the Cavs did with all the pieces of the trade (and they still have Zizic on their roster who has actually looked half way decent of late). 

As a reminder the initial trade was Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2020 2nd

These are the trades the Cavs have made involving those pieces since the trade

Thomas, Frye, 2018 1st (25) FOR Clarkson, Nance

Crowder, Rose, Shumpert, 2020 2nd, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, 2.1 million cash FOR Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis

Hill, Dekker (who they got with cash and a swap of unlikely to play in the league players), 2021 2nd FOR Delladedova, Henson, lotto protected 2021 1st (MIL), 2021 2nd (MIL), 2022 2nd (WAS)

Hood FOR Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, 2023 2nd

Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, Burks (who they got with 2 2nd's for Korver) FOR Knight, Chriss, 2019 1st, 2022 2nd

They then re-signed Stauskas after Houston cut him.

So if you put all of that together you get a massive trade that shakes out like this:


Irving, Frye, 2018 1st (25), Rose, Shumpert, Dekker, Korver, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to 2 players that likely won't see the league

FOR

Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2019 1st (HOU), 2021 1st (MIL), Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Dellavedova, 2021 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2023 2nd, rights to 1 player that likely won't see the league plus they re-signed Stauskas and Frye


Now obviously you can't just do that as these trades probably wouldn't have been available to Boston, but at the end of the day the Cavs essentially traded Irving, Korver, 25, and some bench fodder for Sexton, Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Delly, 2 future 1st's and a bunch of future 2nd's.  Trade is a lot different when you consider the potential trade possibilities that might have been there for Boston had it not made the trade then. 

That said, if Irving stays, trade was absolutely worth it for Boston.  If he leaves, it was not, especially given Irving missed last year's playoffs.

Lots of details

Thx

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 06:05:54 AM »

Online BitterJim

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Is a Kyrie S&T a possibility?

I always wondered why Gordon didn't do a S&T when he came here.. wasn't he eligible for a 5 year deal?

Sign-and-trade contracts are subject to the same limits as non-Bird contracts. Hayward could not have had 8% raises or a 5 year contract unless he re-signed with Utah and stayed there until December or January
I'm bitter.

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 06:43:49 AM »

Offline Green-18

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This has been discussed at length in any number of the Irving trades.  Did we really need another one of these threads?  For now, I'm not going to merge it, but it would be nice if people just didn't start a trade that probably pretty clearly exists elsewhere on the blog.

As for the premise, the trade is theoretically a lot more than just Irving for Sexton when you consider what the Cavs did with all the pieces of the trade (and they still have Zizic on their roster who has actually looked half way decent of late). 

As a reminder the initial trade was Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2020 2nd

These are the trades the Cavs have made involving those pieces since the trade

Thomas, Frye, 2018 1st (25) FOR Clarkson, Nance

Crowder, Rose, Shumpert, 2020 2nd, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, 2.1 million cash FOR Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis

Hill, Dekker, 2021 2nd FOR Delladedova, Henson, lotto protected 2021 1st (MIL), 2021 2nd (MIL), 2022 2nd (WAS)

Hood FOR Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, 2023 2ndThis has been discussed at length in any number of the Irving trades.  Did we really need another one of these threads?  For now, I'm not going to merge it, but it would be nice if people just didn't start a trade that probably pretty clearly exists elsewhere on the blog.

As for the premise, the trade is theoretically a lot more than just Irving for Sexton when you consider what the Cavs did with all the pieces of the trade (and they still have Zizic on their roster who has actually looked half way decent of late). 

As a reminder the initial trade was Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2020 2nd

These are the trades the Cavs have made involving those pieces since the trade

Thomas, Frye, 2018 1st (25) FOR Clarkson, Nance

Crowder, Rose, Shumpert, 2020 2nd, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, 2.1 million cash FOR Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis

Hill, Dekker (who they got with cash and a swap of unlikely to play in the league players), 2021 2nd FOR Delladedova, Henson, lotto protected 2021 1st (MIL), 2021 2nd (MIL), 2022 2nd (WAS)

Hood FOR Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, 2023 2nd

Stauskas, Baldwin, 2021 2nd, Burks (who they got with 2 2nd's for Korver) FOR Knight, Chriss, 2019 1st, 2022 2nd

They then re-signed Stauskas after Houston cut him.

So if you put all of that together you get a massive trade that shakes out like this:


Irving, Frye, 2018 1st (25), Rose, Shumpert, Dekker, Korver, 2024 Jazz option to swap 2nd's, rights to 2 players that likely won't see the league

FOR

Zizic, 2018 1st (8), 2019 1st (HOU), 2021 1st (MIL), Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Dellavedova, 2021 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2022 2nd, 2023 2nd, rights to 1 player that likely won't see the league plus they re-signed Stauskas and Frye


Now obviously you can't just do that as these trades probably wouldn't have been available to Boston, but at the end of the day the Cavs essentially traded Irving, Korver, 25, and some bench fodder for Sexton, Nance, Clarkson, Chriss, Knight, Henson, Delly, 2 future 1st's and a bunch of future 2nd's.  Trade is a lot different when you consider the potential trade possibilities that might have been there for Boston had it not made the trade then. 

That said, if Irving stays, trade was absolutely worth it for Boston.  If he leaves, it was not, especially given Irving missed last year's playoffs.

TP for putting this together!  This is exactly how we would have judged the trade if the assets were reversed.

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 10:05:31 AM »

Offline philr13

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I don't think anyone wins or looses a trade. It's not a one-on-one competition, it's a personnel decision. If the purpose of designing a trade were to defeat your trading partner, no trades would ever take place.

That being said, Hayward's injury robbed the Celtics of the value they thought they had gotten by trading for 2 years of Irving's contract. They thought at the time that even if Irving opts-out and walks in 2019, they've traded the last Brooklyn pick for 2 runs at a title.

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2019, 10:21:18 AM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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Here's another question...

If the Celtics no longer have Kyrie, that means that they'll have nothing left from Isaiah Thomas (whom we traded for him), and therefore nothing left from the original trade in 2015, whereby the Celtics traded away the Cavaliers' 2016 first-round pick. Since IT is no longer with the Celtics, pretty much ANY value from that 2016 pick means it's of higher value than him, right?

So, did the Celtics "lose" the trade that brought in IT? Of course not. The team improved, the culture improved, and the organization made strides towards its ultimate goal of winning a championship.

These trades aren't just ledgers written down on a piece of paper. Kyrie joining the Celtics changed the franchise. You might say it improved it, while others might say it diminished it. The point is, the Kyrie trade will need to be seen in retrospect years from now in terms of how it impacted the Celtics' ultimate goal, not what kind of career Collin Sexton has.

Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2019, 10:41:16 AM »

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Did the Celtics win by kicking the can on a possible IT4 albatross max contract?


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Re: If Irving walks, did the Celtics lose the trade with the Cavs (Sexton)?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2019, 10:57:12 AM »

Online Moranis

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Did the Celtics win by kicking the can on a possible IT4 albatross max contract?
IT4 was never getting a max contract given his injury.  It was never going to happen so really doesn't need to be discussed like it was a possibility.
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