Author Topic: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder  (Read 29374 times)

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Offline jambr380

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There is also this tidbit from a few weeks ago. With many people having trade deadline fever, I thought this was a well-written post/thread written by our [currently] dearly departed LarBrd33.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:40:23 AM by jambr380 »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)


You might not agree with the reason, but what the reason is has been extremely clear. We think he's toxic.


You mean you think he's toxic? 

Anything else is pure speculation, because I recall a direct quote from Danny Ainge a month or two ago where he specifically said that he doesn't know Cousins well enough to draw a conclusion about him.

Beyond that (which was straight from the horses mouth) all I've heard is conflicting reports.  Some people say Brad is happy to coach him but Danny didnt want him.  Now people say Brad didn't want to coach him but Danny would ahve been ok with him.  There is no consistency in the reports - it's all gibberish IMHO.

The fact is that there are few reports that say Danny actually did try making an  offer, but the Kings (knowing what Boston had) were asking too much.

Again, there isn't enough factual information for any of us to conclude why Danny didn't endup with him,

You can't just use the attitude argument on its own, because apparently Danny has had chances at Ibaka, Butler and George and from the reports so far it sounds like he doesn't want to accept either of them unless he can do so on the cheap.

The Bulls are perfectly fair to ask for Crowder.  If I were the Bulls I would do the same. They are similar players, having both playing together probably doesn't make that much sense.

Ainge just likes to stall and stall in the hope that the longer he waits, the more desperate the opposing team will get, and the lower the price will go. 

That's a bluffing game, and sometimes you end up with your bluff called, and another team swoops in with a real offer and takes the prize.

I don't blame Danny for trying to get the maximum value, but I do blame him for seemingly not knowing when to give in and just say "ok fine, we will take your superstar for our couple of spare parts". 

Offline crimson_stallion

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There is also this tidbit from a few weeks ago. With many people have trade deadline fever, I thought this was a well-written post/thread written by our [currently] dearly departed LarBrd33.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052

I have no issue with LarBrd33 (one of the few apparently) but I personally disagreed with pretty much every single thing he wrote in that post. 

Unless you are a young team that's just going through a rebuild and struggling to make the playoffs, you don't value draft picks over a young and established superstar.  You don't do that if you have even the slightest interest in "winning now". 

Offline crimson_stallion

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Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.

Offline chambers

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Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.

I would love both of those guys, but to get past the Cavs, we will need Crowder. We are in the fortunate position to have signed that contract and having Jae would be an enormous benefit come playoff time.

I think Ainge is being stubborn because he should be. Chicago don't need Crowder. They are already getting a top 3 pick in one of the best drafts in years.
They can have Avery and even Rozier, but they should not and probably will not let a deal for the 2017 BRK pick fall through because they wanted Crowder badly.
They just want Jae's contract so they can deal him for another first round pick as part of their rebuild. Danny knows this and it's why he'll probably hold out.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline Bobshot

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can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Well, they would be trading a great contract with Butler. Makes sense.

Offline Bobshot

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Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.

That's what the logic says. I think Larry might keep George now. He has plenty of time to deal him later. And George's desire to play in LA has become a factor.

I think the Celtics have a real shot at the Cavs this year with Butler and Bogut. The future is now with this not so young team.

Offline number_n9ne

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Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd

Offline footey

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Aldridge in the same interview on NBA TV also guaranteed that Okafor would get moved by today. Guaranteed it.  So if that doesn't happen, I would be skeptical of his saying that Crowder was the hang up in the trade with Chicago.

Offline chilidawg

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Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd

I'm not sure why we'd want Mirotic.  And that's way too much to give up.  I think 2017 BRK, Bradley, Zeller and maybe one other pick.  If they really want Olynyk we'd need a useful big back, preferably Gibson.

Offline number_n9ne

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Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd

I'm not sure why we'd want Mirotic.  And that's way too much to give up.  I think 2017 BRK, Bradley, Zeller and maybe one other pick.  If they really want Olynyk we'd need a useful big back, preferably Gibson.

I think most on the other side would say we aren't giving up enough. Bulls management is torn, need to give up more to get a star. Also, we have 4 picks next year, 3 (technically 4 including Thorton) stashed players. Need to consolidate at some point. I'd prefer Gibson too, but I think he has more value then Mirotic who they are trying to give away at this point.

Offline footey

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I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

Offline chilidawg

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I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

You nailed it.

Offline trickybilly

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Can't shoot good and stuff.

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Offline Ilikesports17

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I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.
24 points and 5 assists 9 free throws a game. Sounds like he does alright creating his shot.

average athleticism is absurd. Hes a terrific athlete.
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