Author Topic: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton  (Read 12074 times)

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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2019, 09:09:11 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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I don’t believe they would have selected Sexton.

That being said, taking the chance at Kyrie was the right move. He’s just a weirdo and wanted to go play in NYC. Just didn’t work out.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2019, 09:15:47 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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If I knew Kyrie would walk? Then I wouldn't have made the trade, though I would very likely have looked to move the pick in another deal to upgrade the team.

10/10 times I would have made the same decision as Danny with the info in front of me though.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2019, 09:32:58 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Collin Sexton does not look like a good basketball player on a winning team. He might be a productive basketball player on a losing team. He reminds me a lot of his backcourt mate, Jordan Clarkson.

The Irving situation is disappointing, but I don't think we missed out by not picking him. If they had SGA, or Lonnie Walker, I might feel a bit of regret.

But Jae and Thomas both fell off a cliff. Zizic is meh. Sexton looks like a high usage scorer off the bench. I don't think we lost anything.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2019, 09:48:34 AM »

Offline gift

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2019, 10:14:24 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?
Horford leaving is what allowed Kemba to be signed.  If Horford had merely opted in, I don't know that Walker is here.
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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2019, 11:18:05 AM »

Online bdm860

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It's a Wonderful Life, fun to imagine all the possible butterfly effects.

The run to Game 7 the ECF in 2018 was great.  I don't want to lose that (though obviously I'd trade it for a championship last year, this year, next year,
 or even a Finals run, etc.).

So what happens to Kyrie if he isn't traded to Boston?  Does he stay on the Cavs and get surgery?  If so is he out for the year, or back in time for playoffs?  With Kyrie still on CLE, maybe it's Cavs in 5 (like in '17) instead of Cavs in 7 if he's ready for the playoffs.  Do we not get that awesome Tatum dunk on LeBron?  Or maybe Cavs are worse by keeping Kyrie because Kyrie is out all year, and the Cavs don't have assets (Thomas, Crowder) to make trades (Nance, Clarkson, Hood) and tinker with the team.  Maybe Cavs are better because Thomas/Crowder don't tank their chemistry.  Maybe IND or TOR beat CLE now.  This could go a lot of ways.

Do the C's still go on that 16 game win streak?  Maybe they'll lose a few more games and are the #4 seed, lose to the Cleveland in the 1st round and never get to humiliate the Sixers in 5?  Never get to within minutes of the Finals?  Or maybe they lose to somebody else in the 1st or 2nd round instead (TOR, IND)?

With no Kyrie, and Thomas injured, does Rozier becoming the full time starting PG?  Is Rozier still the C's starting PG now after running the team for the last 2 years, and with nobody in front of him Danny pays to keep him?

Or if Kyrie is traded somewhere else other than Boston, does it affect the East at all?  Does Cleveland get pieces that fit better and now there's no 7 game series vs Boston because Cleveland is better?  Does somebody in the East trade for Kyrie and get better or worse?  Miami, New York, Minnesota, and San Antonio were supposedly on his list, so maybe Miami wins a few more games and affects the East a little.  Or maybe Kyrie was traded to Brooklyn in '17 and just left them in free agency to go somewhere else?


And then without the Kyrie trade, there's all these Hayward questions:
Taking it a step further, can we assume that Hayward never would have been injured? The pass that led to the injury was from Kyrie and he was met by Crowder (who would have still been on the team, or traded to another). I know that's not fair, but it's pretty safe to assume we would have All-Star Hayward for the last two seasons instead.



« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 11:26:52 AM by bdm860 »

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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2019, 11:36:35 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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So are people just ignoring that IT was a crazy chemistry problem and basically destroyed the Cleveland team along with crowder like a Trojan horse? You could even wonder if the Celtics don’t make that trade the Cavs trade Irving for butler, win the chip and Lebron is still there. It was a really great trade, but it didn’t work out at least partially cause of injuries (we could have won the championship for sure in the last two years if Hayward and Irving never got hurt. Also Sexton is pretty meh, certainly not worth worrying about years later. This wasn’t joe Johnson for tony delk.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2019, 11:52:01 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Collin Sexton had the 2nd lowest VORP out of all the players drafted last year at -2.1. I am guessing the excuse will be he played on a crap team, but so did Doncic, Ayton and Young and they had VORPs of 3.6, 1.2 and 0.6 respectively, much, much better numbers than Sexton. It's only one stat, though Sexton's other advanced stats like WS, WS/48, BPM are likewise really bad and not favorable to him as compared to other high level usage players from the same draft that also played on crap teams, but it does show, Sexton's 16.7 PPG as a rookie is not indicative of being a good overall player.


Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2019, 11:52:30 AM »

Online bdm860

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So are people just ignoring that IT was a crazy chemistry problem and basically destroyed the Cleveland team along with crowder like a Trojan horse? You could even wonder if the Celtics don’t make that trade the Cavs trade Irving for butler, win the chip and Lebron is still there. It was a really great trade, but it didn’t work out at least partially cause of injuries (we could have won the championship for sure in the last two years if Hayward and Irving never got hurt. Also Sexton is pretty meh, certainly not worth worrying about years later. This wasn’t joe Johnson for tony delk.

No matter what I don't think LeBron stays.  And personally I don't think Minnesota would trade Butler, they just traded for Butler at the draft and Butler was a Thibs guy.  What other potential trades that could have been out there though are interesting to think about though.  At first I thought Irving for Kawhi  :o but the trade demands don't line up and Kawhi would still be out for '18 and probably never plays with LeBron, but LeBron starts whispering in his ear about teaming up in LA...

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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2019, 12:59:42 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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So are people just ignoring that IT was a crazy chemistry problem and basically destroyed the Cleveland team along with crowder like a Trojan horse? You could even wonder if the Celtics don’t make that trade the Cavs trade Irving for butler, win the chip and Lebron is still there. It was a really great trade, but it didn’t work out at least partially cause of injuries (we could have won the championship for sure in the last two years if Hayward and Irving never got hurt. Also Sexton is pretty meh, certainly not worth worrying about years later. This wasn’t joe Johnson for tony delk.

No matter what I don't think LeBron stays.  And personally I don't think Minnesota would trade Butler, they just traded for Butler at the draft and Butler was a Thibs guy.  What other potential trades that could have been out there though are interesting to think about though.  At first I thought Irving for Kawhi  :o but the trade demands don't line up and Kawhi would still be out for '18 and probably never plays with LeBron, but LeBron starts whispering in his ear about teaming up in LA...

Well I do think they were very close to getting Paul George (and I believe there were rumors about Butler too, but can't remember for sure). There were definitely paths for Lebron to Stay in Cleveland. I think it left a really sour taste in Lebron's mouth how brutal that team was around in him the finals (i mean they could barely beat Rozier, Brown and Tatum ffor the love of gode). The reason that team was so bad was because IT and Crowder tanked their team and forced them to turn over half the roster at the deadline. If we are going to harp on how bad Irving ruined out chemistry this off season it is really unfair to discount the role the malcontents we traded impacted cleveland ( plus the obvious fact they would have tanked our own team and we probably would have never made th ecf).

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2019, 01:15:38 PM »

Offline gift

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?
Horford leaving is what allowed Kemba to be signed.  If Horford had merely opted in, I don't know that Walker is here.

Mechanically, but not in terms of assets and roster. If Kyrie stayed, the Celtics still would not have been able to find anything close to a Horford replacement, whereas I see Kemba as a Kyrie replacement. I see Horford as the irreplaceable loss.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2019, 01:35:10 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?
Horford leaving is what allowed Kemba to be signed.  If Horford had merely opted in, I don't know that Walker is here.

Mechanically, but not in terms of assets and roster. If Kyrie stayed, the Celtics still would not have been able to find anything close to a Horford replacement, whereas I see Kemba as a Kyrie replacement. I see Horford as the irreplaceable loss.

I think everybody thinks of Kemba as the Kyrie replacement (and rightfully so), but what Moranis is saying is that it would have been impossible to sign or trade for him if Horford had just opted in.

If Kyrie still leaves, we are left with Rozier as our starting PG and you are saying the Kyrie is the irreplaceable loss (a stretch, I know, but he is considerably better than Rozier). It basically comes down to Rozier vs Kanter and who you think can better hold down the fort.

Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2019, 01:45:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Collin Sexton had the 2nd lowest VORP out of all the players drafted last year at -2.1. I am guessing the excuse will be he played on a crap team, but so did Doncic, Ayton and Young and they had VORPs of 3.6, 1.2 and 0.6 respectively, much, much better numbers than Sexton. It's only one stat, though Sexton's other advanced stats like WS, WS/48, BPM are likewise really bad and not favorable to him as compared to other high level usage players from the same draft that also played on crap teams, but it does show, Sexton's 16.7 PPG as a rookie is not indicative of being a good overall player.
Yeah, Sexton was an absolutely horrible defender.  Of course he was on a team with horrible defenders, so it is hard to say how much of that is him just being absolutely horrible or him being mediocre but surrounded by horrible defenders.  Sexton is a scorer.  I think he could have a Mo Williams, Jamal Crawford, etc. type career, but I'm not sure he has more top end potential than that. 
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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2019, 01:47:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?
Horford leaving is what allowed Kemba to be signed.  If Horford had merely opted in, I don't know that Walker is here.

Mechanically, but not in terms of assets and roster. If Kyrie stayed, the Celtics still would not have been able to find anything close to a Horford replacement, whereas I see Kemba as a Kyrie replacement. I see Horford as the irreplaceable loss.

I think everybody thinks of Kemba as the Kyrie replacement (and rightfully so), but what Moranis is saying is that it would have been impossible to sign or trade for him if Horford had just opted in.

If Kyrie still leaves, we are left with Rozier as our starting PG and you are saying the Kyrie is the irreplaceable loss (a stretch, I know, but he is considerably better than Rozier). It basically comes down to Rozier vs Kanter and who you think can better hold down the fort.
yes that is what I was saying.  That if Horford opted in, I don't believe Kemba Walker is on the Celtics.
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Re: Would you rather have 2 years of Kyrie or Collin Sexton
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2019, 02:17:38 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I still don't consider that we lost Kyrie for nothing after two years. His leaving allowed Kemba to essentially slide into that spot (with some maneuvering, but nothing that might not have happened anyway). So two years of Kyrie kept the spot warm for Kemba. Would you take 2 years of Kyrie, plus the ability to sign Kemba after those two years in exchange for Sexton?
Horford leaving is what allowed Kemba to be signed.  If Horford had merely opted in, I don't know that Walker is here.

Mechanically, but not in terms of assets and roster. If Kyrie stayed, the Celtics still would not have been able to find anything close to a Horford replacement, whereas I see Kemba as a Kyrie replacement. I see Horford as the irreplaceable loss.

I think everybody thinks of Kemba as the Kyrie replacement (and rightfully so), but what Moranis is saying is that it would have been impossible to sign or trade for him if Horford had just opted in.

If Kyrie still leaves, we are left with Rozier as our starting PG and you are saying the Kyrie is the irreplaceable loss (a stretch, I know, but he is considerably better than Rozier). It basically comes down to Rozier vs Kanter and who you think can better hold down the fort.
yes that is what I was saying.  That if Horford opted in, I don't believe Kemba Walker is on the Celtics.

Wouldn't we have just worked on some sort of sign and trade with Charlotte? There has to be a way that could have happened given we just switched point guards (obviously it would have cost us assets)