Author Topic: Fans, through thick and thin  (Read 3205 times)

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Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2019, 03:52:23 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.

I'm not necessarily title or bust.  Its more of finally resigning myself that I think the team will take a step backwards this season as it goes through the growing pains and the contending window certainly seems pushed out farther.  The scrappy, underdog, feel good stuff is great sometimes;  '01-02, '11-'12, '16'17 all come to mind.    There's a time & place where I love it. Just right now is not the time for me.    We're over a decade now removed from a title.  Nearly a decade since the last Finals appearance.   The climb back from the nadir or '13-'14 was awesome but now seems unfulfilled.  We're heading back towards a youth movement and, unless Danny has some tricks up his sleeve, I think its going to take some time.

Last season was rough.  What happened on the court was disappointing but I also think we saw some of the worst from both Celtics fans & the local media because the team as "not likeable".  I thought some of the stuff was over the top.  My feeling is that fans will love this team much more but they better temper their expectations for the near future.

I don't know if I'd define myself as title or bust, but if given the choice between watching a team full "unlikables" who have a chance at a title versus watching the "little engine that could" type of teams, I'm going with the former.

The process is fun when we're making progress towards the bigger goal, not so much when it just feels like we're treading water.

I agree.  There certainly is a time & a place when its awesome.
Fun, underdog teams, as you very intelligently pointed out have their time and place. '16-17 had perfect chronological timing....a couple years removed from a full tank job, the first year of our first ever landing of a top star free agent, the first year with the current crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade looking good in the playoffs, an unexpected superstar emergence and tremendously heart wrenching story of his playing the playoffs in pain, needing surgery all while grieving for his just departed sister, and seeing the future crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade getting the team the #1 pick. What a perfectly placed feel good season. Who cares that they were dominated in the ECFs. Lovely, lovely season.

But after the disaster that started last season through to now, completely wrecks this being any kind of feel good season. Proper chronology should have seen this team adding Davis to Kyrie after another super deep playoff run, Horford taking a team friendly 3-4 year deal and this season being the first on a long run of titles. But instead, we have a team blown up, not by management, but by the players, with all the free agents becoming free agents and all doing a great impersonation of rats on a sinking ship.

This will always be a pick up the pieces and make lemonade from lemons type season. And lemons will perfectly describe my mood for the upcoming season, sour and bitter. My expectations were so high for this team. I don't want a sugary, feel good season. I wanted a title.

Being who I am, I will still root my team on and always hope for the best, but there is still going to be a part of me that watches what is happening next year and know it should have been very different, and so, I won't really enjoy the season.

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 03:55:52 PM »

Offline RJ87

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.

I'm not necessarily title or bust.  Its more of finally resigning myself that I think the team will take a step backwards this season as it goes through the growing pains and the contending window certainly seems pushed out farther.  The scrappy, underdog, feel good stuff is great sometimes;  '01-02, '11-'12, '16'17 all come to mind.    There's a time & place where I love it. Just right now is not the time for me.    We're over a decade now removed from a title.  Nearly a decade since the last Finals appearance.   The climb back from the nadir or '13-'14 was awesome but now seems unfulfilled.  We're heading back towards a youth movement and, unless Danny has some tricks up his sleeve, I think its going to take some time.

Last season was rough.  What happened on the court was disappointing but I also think we saw some of the worst from both Celtics fans & the local media because the team as "not likeable".  I thought some of the stuff was over the top.  My feeling is that fans will love this team much more but they better temper their expectations for the near future.

I don't know if I'd define myself as title or bust, but if given the choice between watching a team full "unlikables" who have a chance at a title versus watching the "little engine that could" type of teams, I'm going with the former.

The process is fun when we're making progress towards the bigger goal, not so much when it just feels like we're treading water.

I agree.  There certainly is a time & a place when its awesome.
Fun, underdog teams, as you very intelligently pointed out have their time and place. '16-17 had perfect chronological timing....a couple years removed from a full tank job, the first year of our first ever landing of a top star free agent, the first year with the current crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade looking good in the playoffs, an unexpected superstar emergence and tremendously heart wrenching story of his playing the playoffs in pain, needing surgery all while grieving for his just departed sister, and seeing the future crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade getting the team the #1 pick. What a perfectly placed feel good season. Who cares that they were dominated in the ECFs. Lovely, lovely season.

But after the disaster that started last season through to now, completely wrecks this being any kind of feel good season. Proper chronology should have seen this team adding Davis to Kyrie after another super deep playoff run, Horford taking a team friendly 3-4 year deal and this season being the first on a long run of titles. But instead, we have a team blown up, not by management, but by the players, with all the free agents becoming free agents and all doing a great impersonation of rats on a sinking ship.

This will always be a pick up the pieces and make lemonade from lemons type season. And lemons will perfectly describe my mood for the upcoming season, sour and bitter. My expectations were so high for this team. I don't want a sugary, feel good season. I wanted a title.

Being who I am, I will still root my team on and always hope for the best, but there is still going to be a part of me that watches what is happening next year and know it should have been very different, and so, I won't really enjoy the season.

TP Nick. Summed up my current feelings on the team way better than I can at this point.
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Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 03:58:58 PM »

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.

I'm not necessarily title or bust.  Its more of finally resigning myself that I think the team will take a step backwards this season as it goes through the growing pains and the contending window certainly seems pushed out farther.  The scrappy, underdog, feel good stuff is great sometimes;  '01-02, '11-'12, '16'17 all come to mind.    There's a time & place where I love it. Just right now is not the time for me.    We're over a decade now removed from a title.  Nearly a decade since the last Finals appearance.   The climb back from the nadir or '13-'14 was awesome but now seems unfulfilled.  We're heading back towards a youth movement and, unless Danny has some tricks up his sleeve, I think its going to take some time.

Last season was rough.  What happened on the court was disappointing but I also think we saw some of the worst from both Celtics fans & the local media because the team as "not likeable".  I thought some of the stuff was over the top.  My feeling is that fans will love this team much more but they better temper their expectations for the near future.

I don't know if I'd define myself as title or bust, but if given the choice between watching a team full "unlikables" who have a chance at a title versus watching the "little engine that could" type of teams, I'm going with the former.

The process is fun when we're making progress towards the bigger goal, not so much when it just feels like we're treading water.

I agree.  There certainly is a time & a place when its awesome.
Fun, underdog teams, as you very intelligently pointed out have their time and place. '16-17 had perfect chronological timing....a couple years removed from a full tank job, the first year of our first ever landing of a top star free agent, the first year with the current crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade looking good in the playoffs, an unexpected superstar emergence and tremendously heart wrenching story of his playing the playoffs in pain, needing surgery all while grieving for his just departed sister, and seeing the future crown jewel of the Brooklyn trade getting the team the #1 pick. What a perfectly placed feel good season. Who cares that they were dominated in the ECFs. Lovely, lovely season.

But after the disaster that started last season through to now, completely wrecks this being any kind of feel good season. Proper chronology should have seen this team adding Davis to Kyrie after another super deep playoff run, Horford taking a team friendly 3-4 year deal and this season being the first on a long run of titles. But instead, we have a team blown up, not by management, but by the players, with all the free agents becoming free agents and all doing a great impersonation of rats on a sinking ship.

This will always be a pick up the pieces and make lemonade from lemons type season. And lemons will perfectly describe my mood for the upcoming season, sour and bitter. My expectations were so high for this team. I don't want a sugary, feel good season. I wanted a title.

Being who I am, I will still root my team on and always hope for the best, but there is still going to be a part of me that watches what is happening next year and know it should have been very different, and so, I won't really enjoy the season.

TP Nick. Summed up my current feelings on the team way better than I can at this point.

Yes, much better than the way I was trying to convey it also.


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Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2019, 04:00:27 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.


Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2019, 04:07:33 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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If I survived the Lean Years and my shipmates howling in laughter when finding out I was a Celtics fan in the early 90s and whatnot then I'm here until the end.

Still waiting for my Summer of 2007 again. It's coming, I know it is.

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2019, 04:51:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 05:05:42 PM by Moranis »
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Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2019, 05:00:01 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

Yeah but you are kind of a renowned pessimist right? If we went by that we would never be a contender without Lebron. Everyone else considered us a contender, who, no offense, includes people a bit more respected than you for predictions

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2019, 05:04:00 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote

If I survived the Lean Years and my shipmates howling in laughter when finding out I was a Celtics fan in the early 90s and whatnot then I'm here until the end.

Me too!

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2019, 05:07:38 PM »

Offline Moranis

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

Yeah but you are kind of a renowned pessimist right? If we went by that we would never be a contender without Lebron. Everyone else considered us a contender, who, no offense, includes people a bit more respected than you for predictions
I'm a realist.  And I wasn't wrong and often am not wrong despite getting a lot of grief by people like you that think I'm nothing more than a contrarian.  yet time and time again, I'm right and all you seem to do is focus on the few times I'm wrong.

And to be clear, I never considered Boston a real contender because I never thought Irving was as good as most of this board seemed to think he was.  The reality is, and I think it was clearly borne out by this season, Irving is at his best a top 20ish player, he isn't anywhere near a top 10 player, and you pretty much need at least 1 top 10 player to really be considered a contender (and even that often isn't enough).  A weak eastern conference 2 seasons ago gave most of this board a false hope that the team was a contender, they weren't.  They were at best the Toronto Raptors pre-Kawhi.  A team that was deep and was going to win a lot of regular season games (because of the depth), but one that would get beaten down by a team with a truly great player (like the Raptors with the Cavs or like the Bucks did to Boston this year). 

Boston's only real shot at contention this past season was Hayward coming back 100% and actually overtaking Irving for Boston's best player (which I said all of last summer).  In that scenario the team would have had 2 top 20ish players (Hayward, Irving), a top 25/30 player (Horford), and then some rising stars with a lot of depth.  Then they might have had a Pistons type run with the shear volume of players and Ainge probably would have made some moves to better equip the team for a playoff run.  Ainge, quite simply, recognized this team wasn't a contender and that is why he didn't make any moves at the deadline.
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Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2019, 05:33:26 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

Yeah but you are kind of a renowned pessimist right? If we went by that we would never be a contender without Lebron. Everyone else considered us a contender, who, no offense, includes people a bit more respected than you for predictions
I'm a realist.  And I wasn't wrong and often am not wrong despite getting a lot of grief by people like you that think I'm nothing more than a contrarian.  yet time and time again, I'm right and all you seem to do is focus on the few times I'm wrong.

And to be clear, I never considered Boston a real contender because I never thought Irving was as good as most of this board seemed to think he was.  The reality is, and I think it was clearly borne out by this season, Irving is at his best a top 20ish player, he isn't anywhere near a top 10 player, and you pretty much need at least 1 top 10 player to really be considered a contender (and even that often isn't enough).  A weak eastern conference 2 seasons ago gave most of this board a false hope that the team was a contender, they weren't.  They were at best the Toronto Raptors pre-Kawhi.  A team that was deep and was going to win a lot of regular season games (because of the depth), but one that would get beaten down by a team with a truly great player (like the Raptors with the Cavs or like the Bucks did to Boston this year). 

Boston's only real shot at contention this past season was Hayward coming back 100% and actually overtaking Irving for Boston's best player (which I said all of last summer).  In that scenario the team would have had 2 top 20ish players (Hayward, Irving), a top 25/30 player (Horford), and then some rising stars with a lot of depth.  Then they might have had a Pistons type run with the shear volume of players and Ainge probably would have made some moves to better equip the team for a playoff run.  Ainge, quite simply, recognized this team wasn't a contender and that is why he didn't make any moves at the deadline.

First, off in my humble opinion someone bragging on a forum about how often they are right, is one of the most obnoxious things a poster can do (and usually an indication it is not true cause it does not need to be bragged about if that is the case, the posts speak for themselves)

Secondly, you  not calling the Celtics a championship contender last year has nothing to do with being a realist.
Is Zach lowe some Celtics homer? He predicted we win the east and took the warriors to 6 games
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24988629/zach-lowe-crazy-predictions-2018-19-nba-season

Or Stein and 5 other analysts that had us winning east

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/sports/basketball/nba-predictions.html

I could go ahead and list tons of third party objective sites and statistical predictors that had us winning the east coming into the season. Its great you think you are smarter and more realistic than all these sites and writers, but I think I'll stick with trusting these objective analyzers that use stats to back up their predictions and accept we were clearly a contender going into last season.


Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2019, 05:43:19 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

Yeah but you are kind of a renowned pessimist right? If we went by that we would never be a contender without Lebron. Everyone else considered us a contender, who, no offense, includes people a bit more respected than you for predictions
I'm a realist.  And I wasn't wrong and often am not wrong despite getting a lot of grief by people like you that think I'm nothing more than a contrarian.  yet time and time again, I'm right and all you seem to do is focus on the few times I'm wrong.

And to be clear, I never considered Boston a real contender because I never thought Irving was as good as most of this board seemed to think he was.  The reality is, and I think it was clearly borne out by this season, Irving is at his best a top 20ish player, he isn't anywhere near a top 10 player, and you pretty much need at least 1 top 10 player to really be considered a contender (and even that often isn't enough).  A weak eastern conference 2 seasons ago gave most of this board a false hope that the team was a contender, they weren't.  They were at best the Toronto Raptors pre-Kawhi.  A team that was deep and was going to win a lot of regular season games (because of the depth), but one that would get beaten down by a team with a truly great player (like the Raptors with the Cavs or like the Bucks did to Boston this year). 

Boston's only real shot at contention this past season was Hayward coming back 100% and actually overtaking Irving for Boston's best player (which I said all of last summer).  In that scenario the team would have had 2 top 20ish players (Hayward, Irving), a top 25/30 player (Horford), and then some rising stars with a lot of depth.  Then they might have had a Pistons type run with the shear volume of players and Ainge probably would have made some moves to better equip the team for a playoff run.  Ainge, quite simply, recognized this team wasn't a contender and that is why he didn't make any moves at the deadline.

First, off in my humble opinion someone bragging on a forum about how often they are right, is one of the most obnoxious things a poster can do (and usually an indication it is not true cause it does not need to be bragged about if that is the case, the posts speak for themselves)

Secondly, you  not calling the Celtics a championship contender last year has nothing to do with being a realist.
Is Zach lowe some Celtics homer? He predicted we win the east and took the warriors to 6 games
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24988629/zach-lowe-crazy-predictions-2018-19-nba-season

Or Stein and 5 other analysts that had us winning east

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/sports/basketball/nba-predictions.html

I could go ahead and list tons of third party objective sites and statistical predictors that had us winning the east coming into the season. Its great you think you are smarter and more realistic than all these sites and writers, but I think I'll stick with trusting these objective analyzers that use stats to back up their predictions and accept we were clearly a contender going into last season.

TP

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2019, 06:39:55 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I didn't think the C's were contenders or anyone else unless the Warriors had injuries. It was supposed to ECF and maybe finals for the C's. I was still going to cheer for them regardless. How they played and complained in the media was disappointing. I want to watch great basketball but will settle for good basketball. If I see young guys growing daily but they lose a bunch that is fine too because there is hope if they are growing. I want a lot of effort out there this year.

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2019, 06:44:13 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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I have been a C's fan since 1980 when I was 6 years old. Been through a lot worse than this.

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2019, 07:50:15 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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  • Posts: 7828
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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Agree 100%. I think Ainge wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Now he just cake all over his face.

Even if Danny tanked, there weren't exactly Superstars in that draft that would take us to the promised land. Not Wiggins, not Towns, not Simmons and we have our own lottery picks via Brooklyn which turned into Brown and Tatum. How much more tanking do we need? Lottery pick talent can only get you so much value. See Okafor, Noel and even Fultz.

And the league now seems to punish tankers by giving the lower lottery teams more odds on the top 4 picks. We tried to tank back in 2014 but we got out-tanked by 5 more teams and the picks prior to Smart outside Embiid seems to be worse than he is now. Let's also not forget 2007 where the team have the 2nd worst record in the league and only netted Jeff Green as a result.

Re: Fans, through thick and thin
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2019, 09:23:43 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
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  • Posts: 15739
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People wanted their "warm & fuzzy", now they're probably going to get it. 

The question is how well will that translate to the W/L columns?
The way the league is set up anyone who's type of fan who needs to see their team win a title is going to walk away disappointed.  Each season only a handful of teams has any realistic chance - and as we saw this past season even if you get into a contending position, you still need plenty of luck in terms of injuries and players remaining committed to placing winning above their own personal goals.

I personally enjoy the process - draft to free agency to summer league/training camp etc and the process of trying to get really good.  But I've given up expecting the Celtics to win it all.  Ownership will certainly try and the GM & coach are good enough - but I hope we all enjoyed 2008 because that may the last title for quite a while.
If you don't have a title contender and aren't realistically building towards title contention, then you are just wasting time, and frankly I feel like Boston has just been wasting time for awhile now.  Never truly tanking to really build up the young player potential, yet never going all in on building for a title. 

Assuming Irving leaves this summer, that trade really set the team back as it was never really a contender with Irving and Boston wasted 2 years and a significant asset to end up worse off.  And by making the Irving trade, Ainge should have been willing to actually build a contender around him, and he just couldn't pull the trigger.  He let Paul George slip through his fingers because he didn't want to commit and lose some cap space for Hayward (while Hayward is a nice player, he was never going to be as good as Paul George).  He wouldn't let Brown go for 2 years of Butler or 1 year of Leonard.  He wouldn't let Tatum go for Davis.  Why go halfway and not finish the build? 

Ainge has just terribly mishandled this team since the Irving trade.  The team did absolutely nothing for nearly 2 seasons and those seasons ended up being wasted because the conference was open enough to be there for the taking.  Even if Tatum ends up a real legit franchise level player, there isn't enough around him to have the makings of a title contender in a season or two, because Ainge wasted the last 2 seasons.

Teams have to pick a path and sadly Boston just never did.  It wanted to build for the future and try to win at the same time.  Ainge thought he could do it because of the Nets assets, but those were fools gold and by not truly picking a path he made it worse.

It obviously did not work out, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say we were not a title contender coming into last season (or the season before that). We were one of the title favorites coming into the season both times (pre-injuries the first season, pre-chemistry blow up the second sesason). We were heavy favorites to win the East coming into last season by any metrics you could use (betting odds, statistical prediction even down to the media coverage). If Hayward never got injured in a freak and extremely rare injury, maybe we even win the east one of the last two years (its a free all-star the first year, an all-star instead of a role player the second. It is all obviously disappointing how it has all worked out, but to pretend we were not built as a contending team the last few years strikes me as extremely weird.
I said it.  I thought Boston would have a good regular season record, but would not make it out of the East.

Yeah but you are kind of a renowned pessimist right? If we went by that we would never be a contender without Lebron. Everyone else considered us a contender, who, no offense, includes people a bit more respected than you for predictions
I'm a realist.  And I wasn't wrong and often am not wrong despite getting a lot of grief by people like you that think I'm nothing more than a contrarian.  yet time and time again, I'm right and all you seem to do is focus on the few times I'm wrong.

And to be clear, I never considered Boston a real contender because I never thought Irving was as good as most of this board seemed to think he was.  The reality is, and I think it was clearly borne out by this season, Irving is at his best a top 20ish player, he isn't anywhere near a top 10 player, and you pretty much need at least 1 top 10 player to really be considered a contender (and even that often isn't enough).  A weak eastern conference 2 seasons ago gave most of this board a false hope that the team was a contender, they weren't.  They were at best the Toronto Raptors pre-Kawhi.  A team that was deep and was going to win a lot of regular season games (because of the depth), but one that would get beaten down by a team with a truly great player (like the Raptors with the Cavs or like the Bucks did to Boston this year). 

Boston's only real shot at contention this past season was Hayward coming back 100% and actually overtaking Irving for Boston's best player (which I said all of last summer).  In that scenario the team would have had 2 top 20ish players (Hayward, Irving), a top 25/30 player (Horford), and then some rising stars with a lot of depth.  Then they might have had a Pistons type run with the shear volume of players and Ainge probably would have made some moves to better equip the team for a playoff run.  Ainge, quite simply, recognized this team wasn't a contender and that is why he didn't make any moves at the deadline.

First, off in my humble opinion someone bragging on a forum about how often they are right, is one of the most obnoxious things a poster can do (and usually an indication it is not true cause it does not need to be bragged about if that is the case, the posts speak for themselves)

Secondly, you  not calling the Celtics a championship contender last year has nothing to do with being a realist.
Is Zach lowe some Celtics homer? He predicted we win the east and took the warriors to 6 games
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24988629/zach-lowe-crazy-predictions-2018-19-nba-season

Or Stein and 5 other analysts that had us winning east

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/sports/basketball/nba-predictions.html

I could go ahead and list tons of third party objective sites and statistical predictors that had us winning the east coming into the season. Its great you think you are smarter and more realistic than all these sites and writers, but I think I'll stick with trusting these objective analyzers that use stats to back up their predictions and accept we were clearly a contender going into last season.

TP

Thanks Boris, back at ya