All Star Reserves

[keevsnick]

Doesn't top 10 offensive player and bottom 10 defensive player average out to a middle of the road player....I'm joking but the overall point is valid.  I hate that the league values offense so much higher than defense.  Lillard is a better player than Holliday  overall, but by how much.  Offensively the difference is huge.  Defensively it is huge the other way. Overall it is at least close, and Holliday came much cheaper both in assets and in salary.

I think there's a general belief that the two sides of the ball are not equally important. The best defensive players in the league tend to effect defensive outcome less than the best offensive players effect offensive outcome. But how exactly to weight each? That's debatable.

[Redz]

Brown is now a 3x all-star, Tatum a 5x all-star.

Only Celtics players in last 30 years to make 3 or more all star teams:

Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown

Some really good company. 

Man, Antoine is still one of the great "what ifs".  Frustrating one to think about.

I wouldn't have guessed Rondo made 3 All Star Games

He actually made four.

Now that I would have guessed 

[smokeablount]

Doesn't top 10 offensive player and bottom 10 defensive player average out to a middle of the road player....I'm joking but the overall point is valid.  I hate that the league values offense so much higher than defense.  Lillard is a better player than Holliday  overall, but by how much.  Offensively the difference is huge.  Defensively it is huge the other way. Overall it is at least close, and Holliday came much cheaper both in assets and in salary.

I think there's a general belief that the two sides of the ball are not equally important. The best defensive players in the league tend to defensive outcome less than the best offensive players effect offensive output. But how exactly to weight each? That's debatable.

I agree. Trae should make it this year, and whatever you say about him largely also needs to be said about Prime IT.

I think KP has a really good case as the 2nd injury fill in. I just think he fits the profile of an all star more than White, right or wrong.

IMO the Raptors aren’t good enough for Scottie Barnes to make it based on Beal precedent. Anyone else is a real stretch.

[bdm860]

Doesn't top 10 offensive player and bottom 10 defensive player average out to a middle of the road player....I'm joking but the overall point is valid.  I hate that the league values offense so much higher than defense.  Lillard is a better player than Holliday  overall, but by how much.  Offensively the difference is huge.  Defensively it is huge the other way. Overall it is at least close, and Holliday came much cheaper both in assets and in salary.

I think there's a general belief that the two sides of the ball are not equally important. The best defensive players in the league tend to defensive outcome less than the best offensive players effect offensive output. But how exactly to weight each? That's debatable.

I agree. Trae should make it this year, and whatever you say about him largely also needs to be said about Prime IT.

I think KP has a really good case as the 2nd injury fill in. I just think he fits the profile of an all star more than White, right or wrong.

IMO the Raptors aren’t good enough for Scottie Barnes to make it based on Beal precedent. Anyone else is a real stretch.

Comparing Young to IT, I think the difference is winning.

IT got traded to a 20-32 Celtics team and immediately helped turn them around and almost got them to .500 while leading the them to the playoffs, then in his 2 full seasons with Boston (his All-Star years) the team finished 48-34 and 53-29.  IT was doing his thing while leading a winning team.

Trae Young has mostly been around .500 or worse.  The one solidly winning year, 41-31 in '21 (47 win pace) the team was only 13-18 when All Star reserves were announced.  Then he lead the team to the ECF and looked like a star doing it, and was rewarded with an All-Star selection (by the fans) the next year.  But then the team went back to 500ish ball (43-39) and he crapped the bed in the playoffs (15ppg losing 4-1 to the Heat), and his brief moment of being associated with winning basketball was over.

If his teams were closer to 50 wins, or he was leading them out of the 1st round every year, I think he'd get more respect and we'd see more All-Star appearances.

[Moranis]

Doesn't top 10 offensive player and bottom 10 defensive player average out to a middle of the road player....I'm joking but the overall point is valid.  I hate that the league values offense so much higher than defense.  Lillard is a better player than Holliday  overall, but by how much.  Offensively the difference is huge.  Defensively it is huge the other way. Overall it is at least close, and Holliday came much cheaper both in assets and in salary.

I think there's a general belief that the two sides of the ball are not equally important. The best defensive players in the league tend to defensive outcome less than the best offensive players effect offensive output. But how exactly to weight each? That's debatable.

I agree. Trae should make it this year, and whatever you say about him largely also needs to be said about Prime IT.

I think KP has a really good case as the 2nd injury fill in. I just think he fits the profile of an all star more than White, right or wrong.

IMO the Raptors aren’t good enough for Scottie Barnes to make it based on Beal precedent. Anyone else is a real stretch.

Comparing Young to IT, I think the difference is winning.

IT got traded to a 20-32 Celtics team and immediately helped turn them around and almost got them to .500 while leading the them to the playoffs, then in his 2 full seasons with Boston (his All-Star years) the team finished 48-34 and 53-29.  IT was doing his thing while leading a winning team.

Trae Young has mostly been around .500 or worse.  The one solidly winning year, 41-31 in '21 (47 win pace) the team was only 13-18 when All Star reserves were announced.  Then he lead the team to the ECF and looked like a star doing it, and was rewarded with an All-Star selection (by the fans) the next year.  But then the team went back to 500ish ball (43-39) and he crapped the bed in the playoffs (15ppg losing 4-1 to the Heat), and his brief moment of being associated with winning basketball was over.

If his teams were closer to 50 wins, or he was leading them out of the 1st round every year, I think he'd get more respect and we'd see more All-Star appearances.

except the all star game has never really been about winning.  That is what the post season awards are for, not the all star game. It should have the star players in the league.  Trae absolutely should be an all star.

[smokeablount]

Doesn't top 10 offensive player and bottom 10 defensive player average out to a middle of the road player....I'm joking but the overall point is valid.  I hate that the league values offense so much higher than defense.  Lillard is a better player than Holliday  overall, but by how much.  Offensively the difference is huge.  Defensively it is huge the other way. Overall it is at least close, and Holliday came much cheaper both in assets and in salary.

I think there's a general belief that the two sides of the ball are not equally important. The best defensive players in the league tend to defensive outcome less than the best offensive players effect offensive output. But how exactly to weight each? That's debatable.

I agree. Trae should make it this year, and whatever you say about him largely also needs to be said about Prime IT.

I think KP has a really good case as the 2nd injury fill in. I just think he fits the profile of an all star more than White, right or wrong.

IMO the Raptors aren’t good enough for Scottie Barnes to make it based on Beal precedent. Anyone else is a real stretch.

Comparing Young to IT, I think the difference is winning.

IT got traded to a 20-32 Celtics team and immediately helped turn them around and almost got them to .500 while leading the them to the playoffs, then in his 2 full seasons with Boston (his All-Star years) the team finished 48-34 and 53-29.  IT was doing his thing while leading a winning team.

Trae Young has mostly been around .500 or worse.  The one solidly winning year, 41-31 in '21 (47 win pace) the team was only 13-18 when All Star reserves were announced.  Then he lead the team to the ECF and looked like a star doing it, and was rewarded with an All-Star selection (by the fans) the next year.  But then the team went back to 500ish ball (43-39) and he crapped the bed in the playoffs (15ppg losing 4-1 to the Heat), and his brief moment of being associated with winning basketball was over.

If his teams were closer to 50 wins, or he was leading them out of the 1st round every year, I think he'd get more respect and we'd see more All-Star appearances.

Don’t necessarily disagree, but also don’t really buy it.

IT made the playoffs 3 times here, and that’s it for his playoff experience. 2 of the 3 were 1st round exits where he shot under 40% fg and under 30% from 3.

He had his one magical run to the ECF, but that’s it. Trae had that too. IT had 2 better team regular seasons, while Trae has been a better player for a much longer period and made the playoffs more often.

Regular season winning % clearly supports a player like IT on a #1-4 seed making it over Trae in a .500 year, I just meant gripes about Trae as a player.

And while IT is a legend here for helping the team reach new heights, Trae did the same for a franchise with a pathetic history, not the literal best history in the sport. It’s equally/more significant.

[Moranis]

For the last 5 years, Trae has been responsible for roughly 50 points a game (between points and assists).  The Hawks are better with him on the floor then when he is on the bench.  The Hawks don't win more because the rest of the team just isn't put together well and they can't do anything without him.  Instead of acquiring players to maximize him, they keep acquiring players like him but worse (Murray) or essentially the same type of player i.e. offensive oriented poor defenders or just crap.  The one guy that doesn't fit that mold, i.e. Capela just isn't a good fit with him.  Now maybe you can't win with a small offense oriented poor defending guard, but they still should win more than they have. 

They really need to move Murray for a 3 and D SG or SF (think a guy like prime-Middleton).  The unexpected deterioration of Collins really showed just how poorly constructed that team is.   

[michigan adam]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

[keevsnick]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

There are plenty of poor defenders in the league who teams manage to overcome and have at least good enough defenses.

Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Ja Morant, James Harden. All subpar defenders who have been on defenses who managed to be at least acceptable under the right conditions.

Trae Young is bad on defense, maybe even worse than all these guys. But I wouldn't say he's the main reason their defense is bad. The PG is almost never the main reason a defense is bad.

[Celtics2021]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

There are plenty of poor defenders in the league who teams manage to overcome and have at least good enough defenses.

Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Ja Morant, James Harden. All subpar defenders who have been on defenses who managed to be at least acceptable under the right conditions.

Trae Young is bad on defense, maybe even worse than all these guys. But I wouldn't say he's the main reason their defense is bad. The PG is almost never the main reason a defense is bad.

Indeed.  People like to compare Trae to IT, but the Celtics managed to have the 4th-ranked defense despite IT playing through a career-ending hip injury.  You should be able to scheme around your best offensive player being a defensive liability if everyone else can do their job.

[keevsnick]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

There are plenty of poor defenders in the league who teams manage to overcome and have at least good enough defenses.

Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Ja Morant, James Harden. All subpar defenders who have been on defenses who managed to be at least acceptable under the right conditions.

Trae Young is bad on defense, maybe even worse than all these guys. But I wouldn't say he's the main reason their defense is bad. The PG is almost never the main reason a defense is bad.

Indeed.  People like to compare Trae to IT, but the Celtics managed to have the 4th-ranked defense despite IT playing through a career-ending hip injury.  You should be able to scheme around your best offensive player being a defensive liability if everyone else can do their job.

Yep, and this is especially true if your best player is a PG. Don't get me wrong, Trae deserves criticism for his defense (especially lack of effort at times), but he should still be an All-Star imo.

[Moranis]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

per 100 possessions, the Hawks are 2.2 points better with Trae in the game and are 3.5 points better with Murray on the bench.  Last they were 1.0 points better with Trae and 5.5 points better with Murray on the bench. In other words, Trae plays positive ball for them and Mirray does not.

The Murray trade was a disaster for them. He is a terrible fit with Trae and Trae is quite simply better and more critical to their winning. That also led them to getting rid of Huerter who was actually a good fit with Trae.

[keevsnick]

Isn't DM known as a good O and D balanced combo guard?  I just think Trae is soo poor on D that it is hard to overcome the turnstile defense he plays.  Capela is a decent defender.  So is DM.  I just think the leader of the team being such an indifferent defender ruins the whole mentality for the team.

per 100 possessions, the Hawks are 2.2 points better with Trae in the game and are 3.5 points better with Murray on the bench.  Last they were 1.0 points better with Trae and 5.5 points better with Murray on the bench. In other words, Trae plays positive ball for them and Mirray does not.

The Murray trade was a disaster for them. He is a terrible fit with Trae and Trae is quite simply better and more critical to their winning. That also led them to getting rid of Huerter who was actually a good fit with Trae.

Yep, even if you believe Murray is a more well rounded player than Trae offensive is still more important than defense at the guard position, and Trae is a FAR better offensive player than Murray.

[Donoghus]

Bummer

gary washburn
@GwashburnGlobe
·
8s
#NBA names Toronto’s Scottie Barnes and Atlanta’s Trae Young as injury replacements for Julius Randle and Joel Embiid in All-Star Game. No All-Star for Derrick White and Kristaps Porzingis. #Celtics.

[keevsnick]

Scottie Barnes? Really? I guess they skipped KP and Butler becasue of the missed games but Barnes feels like a reach. His team is 17-33, his numbers are decent but not amazing.

Now advanced stats do like him, so maybe Silver is an EPM nerd.