Celtics (15-4) at Pacers (10-8) Game #20 12/4/23

[scaryjerry]

I see nobody one team in the East good enough to beat Boston in a 7 game series assuming Boston is healthy that is. Orlando too young and weak offensively. Milwaukee no depth, bad defensively and matchup badly with Boston. Maybe Philly. I see Philly as the only semi-threatening team but I don't believe they have enough for to outlast Boston in 7. Still, they have a small chance. So 1 team in the East.

In the West, Denver, Minnesota and New Orleans are possibilities. Phoenix is another wild card as we haven't seen them healthy yet. Clippers are a long shot but reluctant to write them off just yet. So up to 5 teams in the West. I'd favour Boston over all 5 of them in a series but they are good enough to have a real shot at knocking Boston off.

Really? So the heat who have beaten this core 2 times in 3 years in the eastern finals and took them to 7 in the other one has no chance at beating them in the playoffs? Lol ok.
And yeah the bucks with 2 top 75 players of all time have absolutely no shot.

Give me a break

bucks just lost to the bulls whom we blew out by 30 points. if we really are using single game losses as a barometer of the team the Bucks should be out of it.

I guess I don't take much out of a single game loss in the regular season. they happen.

I’m not saying the Celtics are done because they lost to the pacers? I’m not saying they’re done at all. I’m saying they’re not playing good enough win or loss and all the red flag problems they’ve had during this era are still prevalent. They’re a mentally weak team that is the worst 3rd quarter team in the league and a giant turnover machine when things get tight and just want to jack up 3s. Not good enough. This is not even mentioning that we are clearly at a coaching disadvantage against most other contenders.

I am pretty well established as a 'one game probably doesn't matter too much' person, but I do think - as I've said in other threads - the narrative that trading Smart, Grant, and Timelord was going to push the team to "play to their potential" according to ownership was vastly overstated.

That is to say: Tatum and Brown are always going to define how far we get in any given season, and while they've both improved year on year as players, improvement isn't a linear experience for most athletes (or most people), and we will still see 'off' nights from both. As fans, I think, the hope is that the refinement overall continues to trend towards better play and a better record, which is, in my opinion, what we're seeing in the season thus far.

I personally think it’s more about Tatum, I’d sure love to see Jaylen make a massive improvement but I’m not expecting that. Just want him to play his role and play smarter than he has. I need more from the guy who is constantly put in mvp conversations. Breaking news: he ain’t winning the mvp this year and will be lucky to be top 5

[Kernewek]

I agree with you, although I think Brown's passing and decision making in general have improved quietly over the season thus far - hopefully it continues.

[lbgreen33]

I have seen Not good enough several times!! What? This team doesn't owe you anything!! You don't pay their salaries!! I lived through losing Lenny Bias, Reggie Lewis!! Thant was rough!!! This team is good and you are crying, come on man!!  Put all the demands you want on Tatum and Brown, but they don't answer to you!!

[Mahk E Mahk]

jaylen: 0 assists combined over the past two games.

atrocious for a guy that plays 33-35 minutes per game and handles the ball as much as he does.

[blink]

jaylen: 0 assists combined over the past two games.

atrocious for a guy that plays 33-35 minutes per game and handles the ball as much as he does.

Tatum had just one more potential assist than Brown in this last game. 6 vs. 5. His teammates cashed in on all of them so he had 6 assists. None of JB's potential assists found the basket hence the 0 assists.  So I guess we need to be calling out Tatum as well, he had only 1 more potential assist.

[ozgod]

who’s the dawg on this team? who’s playing the garnett role, holding teammates accountable and kicking ass when someone is coasting? the jays have more than proved they’re not that guy, but they’ve also proved they need a guy like that on the roster. until brad finds that guy, it’s gonna be groundhog day for c’s fans: plenty of playoff action but no chip.

I tend to agree with this. Jaylen and Jayson are both very softly spoken.

It's gonna have to be Jrue or Kristaps...

The thing is, I would be careful of judging someone by the exterior they project. We don't know how any of them are like in the locker room. Tatum was the guy who called that top six meeting when Jrue was signed to say that not everyone in the room would start or finish games, that most of the time it would be him and Jaylen, and that everyone else would just have to deal with that. I don't necessarily think we need a yeller to hold someone accountable. That's a popular trope in sports because fans gravitate to that type of emotional player - kicking butt and taking names, probably because we like seeing players who wear their heart on their sleeve. But let's be honest we don't really know these players at all other than what we see on the court or what we see in the press conferences.

I feel like each player needs to hold each other accountable and that comes by being honest. Whether it's something fans see or not. It's just that if we don't see it we can only judge the end product and make our assumptions from there.

[Mahk E Mahk]

who’s the dawg on this team? who’s playing the garnett role, holding teammates accountable and kicking ass when someone is coasting? the jays have more than proved they’re not that guy, but they’ve also proved they need a guy like that on the roster. until brad finds that guy, it’s gonna be groundhog day for c’s fans: plenty of playoff action but no chip.

I tend to agree with this. Jaylen and Jayson are both very softly spoken.

It's gonna have to be Jrue or Kristaps...

The thing is, I would be careful of judging someone by the exterior they project. We don't know how any of them are like in the locker room. Tatum was the guy who called that top six meeting when Jrue was signed to say that not everyone in the room would start or finish games, that most of the time it would be him and Jaylen, and that everyone else would just have to deal with that. I don't necessarily think we need a yeller to hold someone accountable. That's a popular trope in sports because fans gravitate to that type of emotional player - kicking butt and taking names, probably because we like seeing players who wear their heart on their sleeve. But let's be honest we don't really know these players at all other than what we see on the court or what we see in the press conferences.

I feel like each player needs to hold each other accountable and that comes by being honest. Whether it's something fans see or not. It's just that if we don't see it we can only judge the end product and make our assumptions from there.

my comment wasn’t based on what they project externally, and i agree with you that effective leaders do come in different forms.

my concern about leadership (or lack thereof) stems from the team’s consistent issues that haven’t improved over the past 5+ years: lack of consistent effort, players disappearing for long stretches, repeated mistakes that never improve (e.g. turnovers), and selfish/stupid/low bbiq play (repeated iso, jacking 3’s, defensive lapses, etc.).

while joe is partially responsible, we’ve witnessed these exact issues during ime and brad’s tenures as HC. consistent success requires discipline and leadership from the HC and a player (dawg). the c’s, as currently constructed, don’t have this type of player and it continues to lead to the above issues.

[ozgod]

who’s the dawg on this team? who’s playing the garnett role, holding teammates accountable and kicking ass when someone is coasting? the jays have more than proved they’re not that guy, but they’ve also proved they need a guy like that on the roster. until brad finds that guy, it’s gonna be groundhog day for c’s fans: plenty of playoff action but no chip.

I tend to agree with this. Jaylen and Jayson are both very softly spoken.

It's gonna have to be Jrue or Kristaps...

The thing is, I would be careful of judging someone by the exterior they project. We don't know how any of them are like in the locker room. Tatum was the guy who called that top six meeting when Jrue was signed to say that not everyone in the room would start or finish games, that most of the time it would be him and Jaylen, and that everyone else would just have to deal with that. I don't necessarily think we need a yeller to hold someone accountable. That's a popular trope in sports because fans gravitate to that type of emotional player - kicking butt and taking names, probably because we like seeing players who wear their heart on their sleeve. But let's be honest we don't really know these players at all other than what we see on the court or what we see in the press conferences.

I feel like each player needs to hold each other accountable and that comes by being honest. Whether it's something fans see or not. It's just that if we don't see it we can only judge the end product and make our assumptions from there.

my comment wasn’t based on what they project externally, and i agree with you that effective leaders do come in different forms.

my concern about leadership (or lack thereof) stems from the team’s consistent issues that haven’t improved over the past 5+ years: lack of consistent effort, players disappearing for long stretches, repeated mistakes that never improve (e.g. turnovers), and selfish/stupid/low bbiq play (repeated iso, jacking 3’s, defensive lapses, etc.).

while joe is partially responsible, we’ve witnessed these exact issues during ime and brad’s tenures as HC. consistent success requires discipline and leadership from the HC and a player (dawg). the c’s, as currently constructed, don’t have this type of player and it continues to lead to the above issues.

As I said since we're on the outside looking in, we can only make judgment on the end product and draw our assumptions from there. I decided to go back and see all the NBA champions over the past 10 years and their general playoff rotation and try to identify who the "dawg" or "mongrel" in their team was, the Garnett type player that held everyone accountable and drove them:

• 2022-23 - Denver (Mike Malone) - Jokic, Porter Jr, Murray, R. Jackson, Gordon, KCP, Braun, Strauther, Holiday - probably would be Jokic, by all accounts he's a joker (after his name) but he's the guy with the most gravitas on that team
• 2021-22 - Golden State (Steve Kerr) - Steph, Klay, Poole, Wiggins, Draymond, Kuminga, Porter, Looney, Lee - obviously a team with a wealth of experience, Dray, Steph, Klay, Looney would probably all fulfil that dawg role for them
• 2020-21 - Milwaukee (Mike Budenholzer) - Giannis, Middleton, Jrue, Brook, DiVincenzo, Portis, Tucker, Forbes - probably Giannis has an intense enough mindset to hold his teammates accountable and let them know in no uncertain terms if they kept slipping up
• 2019-20 - Fakers (Frank Vogel) - LeBum, AD, KCP, Green, Kuzma, Howard, Bradley, Caruso, McGee - gotta be LeBum
• 2018-19 - Toronto (Nick Nurse) - Kawhi, Siakam, Green, Lowry, Ibaka, VanVleet, Anunoby, Powell, M. Gasol - Can't be Kawhi, unless he's one of those closet hardcores, he's got a quiet personality like Tatum and Brown...probably would be Lowry and M. Gasol?

The ones that won before then were the Dubs and Cleveland, so that would be Steph, Klay, Dray and LeBum again...can't see Cryrie being one of those mongrels 

Maybe for some of the teams without a real dawg, like Denver and Toronto, the coach probably filled some of that authoritarian role. Joe's coaching style seems to be more collaborative than authoritarian, probably due to his youth and the way he was parachuted into the job last season.

I feel like while having such a player would definitely be helpful as a leader, I think it needs to be underpinned by a team culture where they hold each other, including themselves, accountable. Kind of like Ubuntu for the 2008 team. It just sucks that we're not privy to what goes on in the locker room and can only judge the end product...on that basis I would agree with you that the recurrent mistakes and substandard play suggest a lack of leadership. We just don't know from who, so we have to assume it's all of them.