The Forgotten Celtic: Cowens

[paulcowens]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

The real issue, I think, is that Cowens was the key guy on his team.  Six championships where you weren't the key guy don't compare to two championships where you were.    If they did, Rodman would be above Larry on the all time NBA great players list!

  That's based on the assumption that winning titles is the sole definition of greatness, in which your best player since the 60s would be Robert Horry.

So, was Robert Horry ever the key guy on a team that won a title?

[BASS_THUMPER]

this will be the same conversation we will be having bout Scalabrine in the future

[Donoghus]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

You're trying to bang the "key guy" drum.  If that's the case, wouldn't have Havlicek been the "key guy" on the '74 since he did win the NBA Finals MVP?

[paulcowens]

Cowens suffers from having peaked during a weak point for the NBA.  The ABA had taken a lot of the more athletic players away from the NBA, and the center position was a little bit weak post-Russell and post-Wilt.  Kareem was the main competition Cowens had at the center position, and supposedly there was a tacit agreement among refs that allowed smaller hustle guys like Cowens to climb all over Kareem and push him around.

As soon as the NBA integrated and the game became faster paced and more athletic, Cowens faded.  He was a very good player, no doubt about it, but I think it's fair to say he ranks behind Havlicek, Pierce, and Cousy on the All-Time Celtics list. 

I'd even consider putting McHale ahead of him, even though McHale never won an MVP, and I think Parish is close behind him.

Yes, I recognize the Simmons argument.  You can make a similar argument about any era of basketball, one way or another, and CERTAINLY about the sixties.  In any case, there were plenty of strong centers in the seventies, and they all seem to have cited Cowens as the toughest guy, or one of the toughest guys, to play against.  Kareem, of course, complained endlessly about Cowens.  I'm sure you are aware that Kareem is quite the complainer.  

I do agree with you that the maligned reputation of the seventies is part of the reason Cowens has been underrated

[paulcowens]

this will be the same conversation we will be having bout Scalabrine in the future

I get it.  So it's a race thing now.

[BASS_THUMPER]

this will be the same conversation we will be having bout Scalabrine in the future

I get it.  So it's a race thing now.

u made me take it there...

i was trying to be kosher bout thangs..

[Donoghus]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

You're trying to bang the "key guy" drum.  If that's the case, wouldn't have Havlicek been the "key guy" on the '74 since he did win the NBA Finals MVP?

Yeah, I'd say that's precisely the right drum to bang, actually.  But if you don't think Cowens was the key guy on the Celtics in the seventies, ok, well I don't know what to say then.  Cowens was the heart and soul of that team.

[Roy H.]

I don't think you can clearly say that Cowens was the #1 option / "#1 guy" on his team.  The '74 and '76 teams were more of a three-headed monster of Cowens, Havlicek, and JoJo.  Hondo was the '74 Finals MVP and the team's leading scorer; Jo Jo was the '76 Finals MVP, and Cowens was the '76 team's lead scorer by a very slim margin.

I guess I just don't think you can say "Hondo was a great second option".  He finished in the top ten in scoring six times and in the top ten in assists seven times.  He was the lead scorer on three championship teams, and was a key player on many more, winning eight rings in total.  Also, when assessing "best Celtic", you have to look at longevity as well as dominance; Havlicek was at the top of his game for at least 12 seasons (12 All-Star appearances, 11 All-NBA), whereas Cowens had a shorter window.

EDIT:  I agree that Cowens was part of the "heart and soul" of the team.  However, Havlicek was, too.

[paulcowens]

this will be the same conversation we will be having bout Scalabrine in the future

I get it.  So it's a race thing now.

u made me take it there...

i was trying to be kosher bout thangs..

I'm just trying to understand your reasoning.  Maybe you meant that it was a red hair thing?  

[Jeff]

ha, missed the "disgraceful" line but that's fine - I'm working on developing a thick  skin

Look, you skewed the poll towards the most hyped players.  

ummm... ok, no

[BASS_THUMPER]

this will be the same conversation we will be having bout Scalabrine in the future

I get it.  So it's a race thing now.

u made me take it there...

i was trying to be kosher bout thangs..

I'm just trying to understand your reasoning.  Maybe you meant that it was a red hair thing? 

oh u were serious?

ok...i am a scalabrine fan..i feel he is very underrated too..thats all..

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

How many championships do you really think he would have won without Cowens after Russell
?

[paulcowens]

ha, missed the "disgraceful" line but that's fine - I'm working on developing a thick  skin

Look, you skewed the poll towards the most hyped players.  

ummm... ok, no

Ah, yes.

[Roy H.]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

How many championships do you really think he would have won without Cowens after Russell
?

Havlicek wouldn't have won in the 70s without Cowens, but Cowens wouldn't have won without Havlicek, either.  They were both necessary components of those teams (as was Jo Jo, who should be in the Hall of Fame.)