Danny ainge has another shot at revamping the bench

[Smitty77]

Cordobes,

First, I have NOT read anywhere where NJ has said that they will NOT try and match.  Show me the link please if you have info suggesting otherwise!!

Second, Najera is NOT Scals.  Najera played 21.3 minutes for a decent Nuggets' team and averaged 5.9 points and 4.3 rebounds.  He is also a CAREER 49.1% shooter, whereas Scals is a has a career avg. of 38.9%.  Quite a difference there.

Third, I am SURE that we have a FUTURE first rounder that we could trade.  We may not have one this year and I bet that Portland would rather not have ours (IF we had it to give) this year anyways, due to our record.

Smitty77

[Big_Matt34]

As for Tony, im probably his biggest fan but he definately needs to play better than he has of late. Aa much as anything he needs to hit his FT's which he has not done since Dec 1st, he is at 54% this month which is down 20% from his career everage, thats pretty pathetic. He has been going up to the rim and throwing up ugly, weak shots that result in either a block or him going to the line where he doesnt convert. But last night he went up strong and tried to dunk on Turiaf, he forced there to be contact and it got him to the line where he hit both ft's. Id like to see him do this more but think its a mental thing where he is scared to land awkwardly which is understandable, even after he did this last night he was on the ground for a few seconds and it was like he expected to be hurt but realized he wasnt and just got up. It was the first time since before the knee surgery where i remember him trying to dunk in traffic and im hoping after he got up from it fine he tries to do it more. His turnovers has also been up but i think thats more because Doc is having to get the ball out of Eddie's hands as the guy has trouble getting it past halfcourt and defenders arent scred to press him because House wont go to the hoop if he gets by the defender anyways.

His defense was great all year up until a week ago but his timing seems to be off lately, alot of dumb fouls wher ehe barely gets the guy because he is just out of position. If he is gonna be inconsistent on offense he needs to bring it on defense night in and night out. He, much like the rest of the bench really needs to play better than it has because its really hurting the team right now by forcing Doc to play the starters more than he wants to. This team REALLY needs a backup pg who can bring the ball up and down the court, House completely kills our tempo and pace whenever he comes in. Powe needs to play much better than he has this year also, he has been a disappointment so far. BBD im mixed on, he plays very good defense and does seem to do some little things but he is very frustrating on offense and is in worse shape than when we drafted him it seems.

[guava_wrench]

Cordobes,

First, I have NOT read anywhere where NJ has said that they will NOT try and match.  Show me the link please if you have info suggesting otherwise!!

Second, Najera is NOT Scals.  Najera played 21.3 minutes for a decent Nuggets' team and averaged 5.9 points and 4.3 rebounds.  He is also a CAREER 49.1% shooter, whereas Scals is a has a career avg. of 38.9%.  Quite a difference there.

Third, I am SURE that we have a FUTURE first rounder that we could trade.  We may not have one this year and I bet that Portland would rather not have ours (IF we had it to give) this year anyways, due to our record.

Smitty77

I remember every article on the topic mentioning that NJ won't match.

[guava_wrench]

The only guy on our bench who I consider to be a good solid player is Powe. After Leon Powe our entire bench is probably easily upgradeable at every position. Our entire bench rotation is undersized, or flawed.

House the severly undersized 2g who can only shoot.
Tony a turnover prone SF trapped in a short SG Body.
Powe undersized PF, yet still affective.
BBD inaffective undersized PF/C

If Doc doesn't want to allow younger players more minutes on the bench he should play more starters with them. The Bench how it's currently being used is just good enough. I think Rondo & Perk should play with the bench the same way Pierce & Allen do. With Rondo on the floor with House and TA there'd be much needed play making on the bench. With Perk on the floor we wouldn't be as undersized as when we have BBD and Powe together and the defense would be improved. Maybe start having to starters on the floor at the same time, for as long as possible.

TP

This is a good analysis of the current mess. Until the bench gets upgraded - and I agree that Powe is the only real keeper of the bunch - then you simply cannot run four of them out together. Three is a lot.

Powe continually gets a pass because of his play last year, but the guy has regressed from last year  and is just as inconsistent as TA. His minutes are up this year and his points, rebounds, FG%, FT% are all down while his turnovers are up. He is a huge black whole on offense, doesnt even look to pass and unless he gets a wide open look for a layup off a pass from Rondo or PP he throws up crazy shots at the rim just like Tony. He is a way below average help defender and not very good man to man either, the only thing he does on defense is take charges. Heres his points in each game since Nov 1.

9, 1, 11, 10, 6, 4, 4, 1, 6, 14, 7, 10, 8, 3, 10, 3, 2, 2, 14, 5, 7, 6, 1, 4, 6, 10, 15, 1, 12.

That is not really the model for consistancy, Doc has obviously noticed as the only time Powe has played more than 18 minutes all month was yesterday in a spot start, He is down from 17 mpg in November to 14 a game this month and its only that high because of his start yesterday. Im not even arguing that TA has been great this year but he has been more consistant than Powe and arguably better but you never see these threads about Leon. Its a weak double standard, everybody likes Powe because he is a good story so he gets a pass while everyone rags on TA. Id love to see this team get Joe Smith, he'd be a perfect backup pf, he would also stretch the floor and open things up inside for our wings more.

Powe has been finding it a lot harder to get shots to fall. Seemed like everything was falling early in the season for him.

[Big_Matt34]

The only guy on our bench who I consider to be a good solid player is Powe. After Leon Powe our entire bench is probably easily upgradeable at every position. Our entire bench rotation is undersized, or flawed.

House the severly undersized 2g who can only shoot.
Tony a turnover prone SF trapped in a short SG Body.
Powe undersized PF, yet still affective.
BBD inaffective undersized PF/C

If Doc doesn't want to allow younger players more minutes on the bench he should play more starters with them. The Bench how it's currently being used is just good enough. I think Rondo & Perk should play with the bench the same way Pierce & Allen do. With Rondo on the floor with House and TA there'd be much needed play making on the bench. With Perk on the floor we wouldn't be as undersized as when we have BBD and Powe together and the defense would be improved. Maybe start having to starters on the floor at the same time, for as long as possible.

TP

This is a good analysis of the current mess. Until the bench gets upgraded - and I agree that Powe is the only real keeper of the bunch - then you simply cannot run four of them out together. Three is a lot.

Powe continually gets a pass because of his play last year, but the guy has regressed from last year  and is just as inconsistent as TA. His minutes are up this year and his points, rebounds, FG%, FT% are all down while his turnovers are up. He is a huge black whole on offense, doesnt even look to pass and unless he gets a wide open look for a layup off a pass from Rondo or PP he throws up crazy shots at the rim just like Tony. He is a way below average help defender and not very good man to man either, the only thing he does on defense is take charges. Heres his points in each game since Nov 1.

9, 1, 11, 10, 6, 4, 4, 1, 6, 14, 7, 10, 8, 3, 10, 3, 2, 2, 14, 5, 7, 6, 1, 4, 6, 10, 15, 1, 12.

That is not really the model for consistancy, Doc has obviously noticed as the only time Powe has played more than 18 minutes all month was yesterday in a spot start, He is down from 17 mpg in November to 14 a game this month and its only that high because of his start yesterday. Im not even arguing that TA has been great this year but he has been more consistant than Powe and arguably better but you never see these threads about Leon. Its a weak double standard, everybody likes Powe because he is a good story so he gets a pass while everyone rags on TA. Id love to see this team get Joe Smith, he'd be a perfect backup pf, he would also stretch the floor and open things up inside for our wings more.

Powe has been finding it a lot harder to get shots to fall. Seemed like everything was falling early in the season for him.

I wish he would pass out of the post more, it would make it alot harder for them to double team him. But he just turns towards the hoop no matter how many guys are there and throws up shots, it can be very frustrating because the thought of passing doesnt even seem to cross his mind. Thats the most annoying thing of anyone on the team IMO, it would make things so much easier for him because he wouldnt have three guys looking to stop him.

[nickagneta]

Cordobes,

First, I have NOT read anywhere where NJ has said that they will NOT try and match.  Show me the link please if you have info suggesting otherwise!!

Second, Najera is NOT Scals.  Najera played 21.3 minutes for a decent Nuggets' team and averaged 5.9 points and 4.3 rebounds.  He is also a CAREER 49.1% shooter, whereas Scals is a has a career avg. of 38.9%.  Quite a difference there.

Third, I am SURE that we have a FUTURE first rounder that we could trade.  We may not have one this year and I bet that Portland would rather not have ours (IF we had it to give) this year anyways, due to our record.

Smitty77

From the Newark(NJ) Star Ledger:

http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2008/12/thunder_handdelivers_krstic_of.html

The Nets won't be in any such hurry to match it or recant it. They have seven days, and they'll make Oklahoma City wait -- even though it is practically assured that they'll pass on the three-year, $15.58 million offer sheet and allow Krstic to become a Thunder plunder.

Also, since a team can not trade first round draft picks in consecutive years unless first drafting a player and then trading away their rights the Boston Celtics could not trade away their 2010 first round pick because they have already traded away their 2009 first round pick. They could trade away their 2011 first round pick but it is highly unusual for a team to accept a pick that far in advance since they have no idea where it may fall or what it will be worth.

For instance, the only pick of the 2011 draft or any other future draft that has already been traded is the Warriors first round pick that year which was sent to the Nets in the Marcus Williams deal. But even that pick is protected through the 10th overall selection through the 2013 draft at which point it becomes a second round pick. So is it really a first round pick? Probably not!

So the idea that the Celtics will include a first round pick in any trade is rather absurd since most teams haven't a clue what that pick will be worth, if anything. Not only that but Sergio Rodriguez is Portland's backup PG who's per minute stats are [dang] good and who's ER is about as good as one can expect from a rookie backup PG. Bayless is the player they would be moving not Rodriguez and even then Portland has been rumored to want a PG in return which your scenario is not addressing.

I applaud your idea and your recognition of what the Celtics need and the right type of talent to fill those roles. But both of your trades are as unlikely as any trades that I have read in a long time.

[Smitty77]

The fact that NJ will not match is news to me.  I had read that they were going to try to get a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 trade to be able to.  I agree that on the top of the surface that the NJ trade seemed very far-fetched.  However, IF NJ was determined to clear a spot for Nenad, that would mean their backs were against the wall with a Monday deadline to match and we could have gotten a deal that otherwise would be impossible.  You have to always try to deal with a team from a position of strength and we had an opportunity to steal from NJ IF they wanted Kristic, which apparently they do not.

NickAgenta,

First, Sergio is in his THIRD year and therefore certainly not a "rookie."  Maybe you meant that this is the first year he has actually been their second PG.  My bad if that is what you meant. Also, remember that Portland recently was interested in trading for Conley (for Martell Webster I believe).  Perhaps the thought of reuniting this former Buckeye with Oden would allow them to move Sergio a little easier.

[cordobes]

Cordobes,

First, I have NOT read anywhere where NJ has said that they will NOT try and match.  Show me the link please if you have info suggesting otherwise!!

Second, Najera is NOT Scals.  Najera played 21.3 minutes for a decent Nuggets' team and averaged 5.9 points and 4.3 rebounds.  He is also a CAREER 49.1% shooter, whereas Scals is a has a career avg. of 38.9%.  Quite a difference there.

Third, I am SURE that we have a FUTURE first rounder that we could trade.  We may not have one this year and I bet that Portland would rather not have ours (IF we had it to give) this year anyways, due to our record.

Smitty77

The first point has been addressed.

The second one... well, if career numbers were that important, we should re-sign Larry Bird. Najera is like Scal because he brings the same skill-set to the floor with enough quality to be a decent 8th/9th man. Najera maybe a slightly better player, but if you think that's the case, doesn't that make the trade you propose even more absurd? Why wouldn't they just cut Ager? And why wouldn't they find a better deal? If Najera is more valuable than Scal what's exactly you reasoning? That Tony Allen is more valuable than Boone and Williams together?

Third, we can't trade future 1st rounders, so basically we have no tradeable draft picks. Big Baby... they just don't need him, they'd try to buy him out, so he's a drag.

Honestly, I don't even like most of those players, not being the biggest fan of Najera (the current washed up edition), Williams and Rodriguez. Boone is solid. But it'd be a rape solely because of the relative market value of those guys compared to Tony Allen and Scalabrine. Rod Thorn and Kevin Pritchard aren't that stupid.

[billysan]

Honestly, I don't even like most of those players, not being the biggest fan of Najera (the current washed up edition), Williams and Rodriguez. Boone is solid. But it'd be a rape solely because of the relative market value of those guys compared to Tony Allen and Scalabrine. Rod Thorn and Kevin Pritchard aren't that stupid.

But, Chris Wallace might be if we involve him in a three way to Portland for Sergio.

I think we would be better off 'buying the contract' of one of these type of players from a team that is in mild financial trouble or that has a tightwad owner. For example, Phoenix is always (lately) trying to dump salary, why not put together a package with players and cash for Barbosa and flotsam. Much more realistic IMO.

[Mencius]

Well, I'm sure Danny will snag a vet he can rely upon and not look to the D-League, but there's a center in the D-League putting up great numbers.  Courtney Sims numbers in 8 games:


2008-09 D-League Statistics

PPG    23.5
RPG    13.10
APG    1.3
EFF    + 31.00
BPG    3.5

Born: Oct 21, 1983
Height: 6-11 / 2,11
Weight: 230 lbs. / 104,3 kg.
College: Michigan

Yeah, I know, it's the D-League, but I bet he's a helluva lot better the useless POB.

[winsomme]

Cordobes,

First, I have NOT read anywhere where NJ has said that they will NOT try and match.  Show me the link please if you have info suggesting otherwise!!

Second, Najera is NOT Scals.  Najera played 21.3 minutes for a decent Nuggets' team and averaged 5.9 points and 4.3 rebounds.  He is also a CAREER 49.1% shooter, whereas Scals is a has a career avg. of 38.9%.  Quite a difference there.

Third, I am SURE that we have a FUTURE first rounder that we could trade.  We may not have one this year and I bet that Portland would rather not have ours (IF we had it to give) this year anyways, due to our record.

Smitty77

From the Newark(NJ) Star Ledger:

http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2008/12/thunder_handdelivers_krstic_of.html

The Nets won't be in any such hurry to match it or recant it. They have seven days, and they'll make Oklahoma City wait -- even though it is practically assured that they'll pass on the three-year, $15.58 million offer sheet and allow Krstic to become a Thunder plunder.

Also, since a team can not trade first round draft picks in consecutive years unless first drafting a player and then trading away their rights the Boston Celtics could not trade away their 2010 first round pick because they have already traded away their 2009 first round pick. They could trade away their 2011 first round pick but it is highly unusual for a team to accept a pick that far in advance since they have no idea where it may fall or what it will be worth.

For instance, the only pick of the 2011 draft or any other future draft that has already been traded is the Warriors first round pick that year which was sent to the Nets in the Marcus Williams deal. But even that pick is protected through the 10th overall selection through the 2013 draft at which point it becomes a second round pick. So is it really a first round pick? Probably not!

So the idea that the Celtics will include a first round pick in any trade is rather absurd since most teams haven't a clue what that pick will be worth, if anything. Not only that but Sergio Rodriguez is Portland's backup PG who's per minute stats are [dang] good and who's ER is about as good as one can expect from a rookie backup PG. Bayless is the player they would be moving not Rodriguez and even then Portland has been rumored to want a PG in return which your scenario is not addressing.

I applaud your idea and your recognition of what the Celtics need and the right type of talent to fill those roles. But both of your trades are as unlikely as any trades that I have read in a long time.

i actually think our 2011 first round pick would have more value around the league than our 2010....there is a much higher chance that we will not be doing what we are doing now in 2011 than 2010.

not saying we should be trading that 2011 pick, but i would think teams would be more interested in that pick anyway.....who knows...

[winsomme]

Honestly, I don't even like most of those players, not being the biggest fan of Najera (the current washed up edition), Williams and Rodriguez. Boone is solid. But it'd be a rape solely because of the relative market value of those guys compared to Tony Allen and Scalabrine. Rod Thorn and Kevin Pritchard aren't that stupid.

But, Chris Wallace might be if we involve him in a three way to Portland for Sergio.

I think we would be better off 'buying the contract' of one of these type of players from a team that is in mild financial trouble or that has a tightwad owner. For example, Phoenix is always (lately) trying to dump salary, why not put together a package with players and cash for Barbosa and flotsam. Much more realistic IMO.

one thing about Wallace is i remember reading around draft time that he was a big fan of JR Giddens....i think a few other teams were late fans of his too...

how's he doing in the D-League?

[Fan from VT]

The only guy on our bench who I consider to be a good solid player is Powe. After Leon Powe our entire bench is probably easily upgradeable at every position. Our entire bench rotation is undersized, or flawed.

House the severly undersized 2g who can only shoot.
Tony a turnover prone SF trapped in a short SG Body.
Powe undersized PF, yet still affective.
BBD inaffective undersized PF/C

If Doc doesn't want to allow younger players more minutes on the bench he should play more starters with them. The Bench how it's currently being used is just good enough. I think Rondo & Perk should play with the bench the same way Pierce & Allen do. With Rondo on the floor with House and TA there'd be much needed play making on the bench. With Perk on the floor we wouldn't be as undersized as when we have BBD and Powe together and the defense would be improved. Maybe start having to starters on the floor at the same time, for as long as possible.

TP

This is a good analysis of the current mess. Until the bench gets upgraded - and I agree that Powe is the only real keeper of the bunch - then you simply cannot run four of them out together. Three is a lot.

Powe continually gets a pass because of his play last year, but the guy has regressed from last year  and is just as inconsistent as TA. His minutes are up this year and his points, rebounds, FG%, FT% are all down while his turnovers are up. He is a huge black whole on offense, doesnt even look to pass and unless he gets a wide open look for a layup off a pass from Rondo or PP he throws up crazy shots at the rim just like Tony. He is a way below average help defender and not very good man to man either, the only thing he does on defense is take charges. Heres his points in each game since Nov 1.

9, 1, 11, 10, 6, 4, 4, 1, 6, 14, 7, 10, 8, 3, 10, 3, 2, 2, 14, 5, 7, 6, 1, 4, 6, 10, 15, 1, 12.

That is not really the model for consistancy, Doc has obviously noticed as the only time Powe has played more than 18 minutes all month was yesterday in a spot start, He is down from 17 mpg in November to 14 a game this month and its only that high because of his start yesterday. Im not even arguing that TA has been great this year but he has been more consistant than Powe and arguably better but you never see these threads about Leon. Its a weak double standard, everybody likes Powe because he is a good story so he gets a pass while everyone rags on TA. Id love to see this team get Joe Smith, he'd be a perfect backup pf, he would also stretch the floor and open things up inside for our wings more.

Powe has been finding it a lot harder to get shots to fall. Seemed like everything was falling early in the season for him.

I wish he would pass out of the post more, it would make it alot harder for them to double team him. But he just turns towards the hoop no matter how many guys are there and throws up shots, it can be very frustrating because the thought of passing doesnt even seem to cross his mind. Thats the most annoying thing of anyone on the team IMO, it would make things so much easier for him because he wouldnt have three guys looking to stop him.

I'm a huge powe fan, and have been disappointed by his dropoff this year. Part of me wonders, though, if this dropoff is in part due to Doc's tendency this year to play full first and second units. Last year Powe played much more frequently with starters, which meant he faced fewer double teams and had better teammates to pass to.

[Chris]

I'm a huge powe fan, and have been disappointed by his dropoff this year. Part of me wonders, though, if this dropoff is in part due to Doc's tendency this year to play full first and second units. Last year Powe played much more frequently with starters, which meant he faced fewer double teams and had better teammates to pass to.

I think that is part of it, but really it has more to do with Powe becoming an everyday rotation player rather than a 9th or 10th man.  Last year Powe was in a platoon with Davis, where Doc did a tremendous job of putting them both out there only when they had favorable matchups.  He was able to get the most out of both of them while hiding their weaknesses for the most part. 

The biggest reason he was able to do this was because they had Posey taking up many of the minutes at the PF spot, so they only needed 3 big men in any given game, with the 4th guy only playing spot minutes.

This year, they have had to make up a big portion of Posey's minutes with Powe and Davis, forcing them both to be out there every game, regardless of the matchup.  They both have been very good in some games, and very bad in others.  It isn't really because either has regressed (I actually think they both have improved), but because they are being asked to do more than they were last year, and play out of their comfort zone.

I expect both of them to be significantly better by the playoffs (and I think they have been improving throughout the season), and I also expect them to pick up another big man so Doc can go back to maximizing both of their talents by using them as part time players.

The real problem with this bench is in the backcourt and on the wing, where no one seems able to set up the offense, or consistently stay in front of their man.

[moiso]

The only guy on our bench who I consider to be a good solid player is Powe. After Leon Powe our entire bench is probably easily upgradeable at every position. Our entire bench rotation is undersized, or flawed.

House the severly undersized 2g who can only shoot.
Tony a turnover prone SF trapped in a short SG Body.
Powe undersized PF, yet still affective.
BBD inaffective undersized PF/C

If Doc doesn't want to allow younger players more minutes on the bench he should play more starters with them. The Bench how it's currently being used is just good enough. I think Rondo & Perk should play with the bench the same way Pierce & Allen do. With Rondo on the floor with House and TA there'd be much needed play making on the bench. With Perk on the floor we wouldn't be as undersized as when we have BBD and Powe together and the defense would be improved. Maybe start having to starters on the floor at the same time, for as long as possible.

TP

This is a good analysis of the current mess. Until the bench gets upgraded - and I agree that Powe is the only real keeper of the bunch - then you simply cannot run four of them out together. Three is a lot.

Powe continually gets a pass because of his play last year, but the guy has regressed from last year  and is just as inconsistent as TA. His minutes are up this year and his points, rebounds, FG%, FT% are all down while his turnovers are up. He is a huge black whole on offense, doesnt even look to pass and unless he gets a wide open look for a layup off a pass from Rondo or PP he throws up crazy shots at the rim just like Tony. He is a way below average help defender and not very good man to man either, the only thing he does on defense is take charges. Heres his points in each game since Nov 1.

9, 1, 11, 10, 6, 4, 4, 1, 6, 14, 7, 10, 8, 3, 10, 3, 2, 2, 14, 5, 7, 6, 1, 4, 6, 10, 15, 1, 12.

That is not really the model for consistancy, Doc has obviously noticed as the only time Powe has played more than 18 minutes all month was yesterday in a spot start, He is down from 17 mpg in November to 14 a game this month and its only that high because of his start yesterday. Im not even arguing that TA has been great this year but he has been more consistant than Powe and arguably better but you never see these threads about Leon. Its a weak double standard, everybody likes Powe because he is a good story so he gets a pass while everyone rags on TA. Id love to see this team get Joe Smith, he'd be a perfect backup pf, he would also stretch the floor and open things up inside for our wings more.

Powe has been finding it a lot harder to get shots to fall. Seemed like everything was falling early in the season for him.

I wish he would pass out of the post more, it would make it alot harder for them to double team him. But he just turns towards the hoop no matter how many guys are there and throws up shots, it can be very frustrating because the thought of passing doesnt even seem to cross his mind. Thats the most annoying thing of anyone on the team IMO, it would make things so much easier for him because he wouldnt have three guys looking to stop him.

Powe had a grand total of 15 assists last year- so bad it's kind of funny.  He's without a doubt the worst passer on the team.  It would be great if he improved a bit- he's a ball stopper right now.