Is Shohei having the greatest individual season we've ever seen?

[Moranis]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Agree. I had so much fun watching Manny and Papi. I'm not going to clench my pearls when people state that they cheated (they did). I also had fun watching Bonds from afar. He's the greatest hitter that I've ever seen on TV or in person. The steroid situation is not black and white. We don't know who was clean, though I think we know who was dirty.

I guess my point is, I’ve never seen a baseball player change the game like Bonds did for those few seasons.  They literally were not pitching to him half the time because he was just going to mash the ball if given the chance.  The dude was intentionally walked with the bases loaded! 

The only thing close I can think of is Wilt.  They had to change the playing field for Wilt to make it more fair for everyone else.  That is true greatness. 

Ohtani is unique for being multitalented, but he is not anywhere near the best ever at either pitching or hitting.  Super fun to see (and debate) though.

having the best season ever does not make one the greatest ever.  I mean Westbrook has had one of the greatest seasons ever in the NBA and no one is putting him anywhere near best player ever.  Ruth and Bonds are clearly better baseball players than Ohtani, but I'm just not so sure they had a better season than Ohtani is having thus far.  Still a ways to go though in this one, so it could go either way. 

[Roy H.]

The game has certainly changed a ton, but I was looking at Babe's Red Sox career. 

I wonder, if there was a player who had demonstrated that he could be an elite pitcher (leading the league in ERA, complete games, shutouts, H/9, etc.) and an elite power hitter (led the league in HRs, SLG%, OPS), would a team completely shut down the pitching?

Like, say Greg Maddox came up when he did, and when it was his turn to bat he was absolutely raking, at like a Mike Trout level.  Would an NL team (before the universal DH) just have him hit on his scheduled starts?  Would they give him a chance like Ohtani?  Or would they say "screw being Greg Maddox, we want Mike Trout full time"?

[Moranis]

Well the Angels have not stopped Ohtani from doing both and he is certainly both an elite pitcher and elite hitter.

[Roy H.]

Well the Angels have not stopped Ohtani from doing both and he is certainly both an elite pitcher and elite hitter.

Right, but they're kind of the first team to do it other than the Red Sox with Ruth.  And, if Ohtani had come up through the American system, my guess is that he would have been told to pick one.

It's interesting to me.  There are a ton of guys who come out of high school who are both excellent hitters and pitchers.  Then, they hit college or the minors, and are told to pick one.  I wonder if Ohtani's success will change that approach even to a small degree.

Are there any articles on what the Yankees were thinking with Ruth?  Why didn't they play him four days in the outfield followed by one pitching (in which he could still hit)?

[Celtics2021]

The game has certainly changed a ton, but I was looking at Babe's Red Sox career. 

I wonder, if there was a player who had demonstrated that he could be an elite pitcher (leading the league in ERA, complete games, shutouts, H/9, etc.) and an elite power hitter (led the league in HRs, SLG%, OPS), would a team completely shut down the pitching?

Like, say Greg Maddox came up when he did, and when it was his turn to bat he was absolutely raking, at like a Mike Trout level.  Would an NL team (before the universal DH) just have him hit on his scheduled starts?  Would they give him a chance like Ohtani?  Or would they say "screw being Greg Maddox, we want Mike Trout full time"?

I think you wouldn’t have seen that because they wouldn’t want Maddox, as an example, to get hurt playing in the field.  Ohtani DHs when hes not pitching — imagine if he regularly played in LF instead?  As a more realistic example, imagine if Rick Ankiel hadn’t lost control of his pitching — he went back to the minors for a couple of years and came back as a solid position player, but I don’t think St. Louis would have ever wanted him running around the outfield when he wasn’t pitching.

[ETNCeltics]

Ronald Acuna is having one of the greatest non-steroid season's in recent MLB history, but Ohtani's season is so amazing hardly anyone has noticed it. Acuna's on a pace to blow past almost every stat from Rickey Henderson's legendary 1990 MVP season.

[W8ting2McHale]

The game has certainly changed a ton, but I was looking at Babe's Red Sox career. 

I wonder, if there was a player who had demonstrated that he could be an elite pitcher (leading the league in ERA, complete games, shutouts, H/9, etc.) and an elite power hitter (led the league in HRs, SLG%, OPS), would a team completely shut down the pitching?

Like, say Greg Maddox came up when he did, and when it was his turn to bat he was absolutely raking, at like a Mike Trout level.  Would an NL team (before the universal DH) just have him hit on his scheduled starts?  Would they give him a chance like Ohtani?  Or would they say "screw being Greg Maddox, we want Mike Trout full time"?

While certainly not an elite pitcher or hitter, the Red Sox drafted Casey Kelly in the 1st round back in 2008. He was a star pitcher and shortstop in high school and was to signed by the University of Tennessee as a quarterback. He chose baseball over football, but wanted to play shortstop, while the Red Sox wanted him to pitch. His rookie minor league season he did both well enough to be picked for the Futures All-Star team and was a top ranked prospect.

That all eventually fell apart. He was traded to the Padres, had Tommy John surgery, and barely had a career in the majors before fading away. But for a minute he looked like he could be that guy. I’m thinking Bryce Harper and quite a few others might have been above average high school pitchers but favored batting and playing full time over pitching.

Zack Greinke is a solid hitter and I seem to remember Steve Carlton and a few others who could have been at least league average if not elite, and baseball would probably be more interesting if they had played every day like Shohei.

[ozgod]

Well the Angels have not stopped Ohtani from doing both and he is certainly both an elite pitcher and elite hitter.

Right, but they're kind of the first team to do it other than the Red Sox with Ruth.  And, if Ohtani had come up through the American system, my guess is that he would have been told to pick one.

It's interesting to me.  There are a ton of guys who come out of high school who are both excellent hitters and pitchers.  Then, they hit college or the minors, and are told to pick one.  I wonder if Ohtani's success will change that approach even to a small degree.

Are there any articles on what the Yankees were thinking with Ruth?  Why didn't they play him four days in the outfield followed by one pitching (in which he could still hit)?

That's what I mentioned in my post earlier - I think that in the US system it would be very hard for Shohei to have the freedom to do what he did, because the logic would have been to specialize in one or the other, and any effort spent in what you didn't specialize in would be wasted. Nobody wants a jack of all trades who is just decent at one or another, they have to be great at something. But in Japan he was given the freedom to pursue both paths and ended up being a player who would have made MLB purely as a hitter, or purely as a batter, and when he's able to do both, then he's a unicorn.

In a way it's like centers from 20 years ago - nobody would have told them to learn to shoot from the perimeter, why waste time learning something you will never do. Now you have stretch bigs shooting from the perimeter all the time. The NBA has gone from players in clearly defined positions - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - to having players who are tagged with being able to fulfill multiple roles, e.g. bigs, wings, ball handers. Maybe Shohei causes baseball to evolve where GMs and managers see the value of these types of two way players who can continue to contribute after they get pulled off the mound or whenever they are on rest days. But they would have to be special players who can hold their place in the team either as a hitter, or as a pitcher. And now you have the Ohtani Rule where a pitcher can become the DH even when he is pulled, which might encourage other pitchers who can hit to do the same - as long as they can hit better than another DH that would otherwise fill that spot.

[kraidstar]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

[Moranis]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

well it was unnatural, but so was basically everyone. At other times speed was the drug of choice (including guys like Mays).  Spit balls, pine tar, stealing signs, etc.  The adage if you ain't cheating you ain't trying is basically baseball's tag line, which is why all the steroid stuff is just pure and utter nonsense.  Baseball was born on cheating.  Heck steroids weren't even banned by the sport until after guys like Bonds retires. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Not disagreeing with your post, but Papi has no business being mentioned in there. None.

[Roy H.]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Not disagreeing with your post, but Papi has no business being mentioned in there. None.

Eh.  Clemens never failed a drug test.  Papi did.

[kraidstar]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

What Bonds did looked unnatural to me both then and now. He was dominant but i can't bring myself to compare him to other historical figures.

well it was unnatural, but so was basically everyone. At other times speed was the drug of choice (including guys like Mays).  Spit balls, pine tar, stealing signs, etc.  The adage if you ain't cheating you ain't trying is basically baseball's tag line, which is why all the steroid stuff is just pure and utter nonsense.  Baseball was born on cheating.  Heck steroids weren't even banned by the sport until after guys like Bonds retires.

Were guys mashing 70 home runs on greenies? That comparison is a joke. Barry Bonds literally looks like an ogre from Lord of the Rings.

Amphetamines cannot and will not give the advantages of the hardcore stuff Bonds and his ilk were on.

[kraidstar]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Not disagreeing with your post, but Papi has no business being mentioned in there. None.

Eh.  Clemens never failed a drug test.  Papi did.

Roger's wife was roiding tho lol

[Roy H.]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Not disagreeing with your post, but Papi has no business being mentioned in there. None.

Eh.  Clemens never failed a drug test.  Papi did.

Roger's wife was roiding tho lol

Oh, I have no doubt her used.  I have no doubt about Papi, either.  And they're both among my all-time favorite players.  Manny, too.

We're getting far beyond SO, but I'm sure designer drugs that are ahead of testing requirements are rampant in sports.