Grant Williams decision revisited

[Kernewek]

Yeah I ran the numbers somewhere and Grant's contract put him in the 4th highest on a team, but that doesn't account for rookies.  I think it is something like 2 rookies start on average, which bumps him to 6th on a team.  Grant got rotation player/spot starter money.  That is what he is and his minutes, even in Dallas reflect that.

The real issue he had in Dallas is he wasn't shooting well after the first couple weeks of the season.

How can 2 rookies start on average?  That would be 60 rookies starting on 30 teams.  I guess you mean on average 2 on rookie contracts are starting?  That seems possible but still high.

At any rate, I still think that DAL signed Grant thinking he was going to be a starter and he was a starter, until they realized he wasn't that good.  The Celtics didn't see him as a starter so they likely were offering less.  I suspect that moving forward, teams will use their NT-MLE (those that have one) on players that are expected to be starters, just like DAL did with Grant.

It is certainly true that teams resigning their own may pay more for a bench player, especially contending teams, but I don't think we are going to see all that much of that.  There will be top teams where all the starters make more than Grant, but that will be more the exception than the rule.  There will be 2-3 max or super max contracts, there will be a couple in the NT-MLE range or lower, and there will be rookie or min deals to fill out the roster.  That is how the CBA is going to force teams to build their rosters.

If teams are paying more than that for their bench players, they just aren't going to be able to remain competitive.

I think this is all pretty fair. The middle class is screwed by the super max contracts. There will definitely be cheap starters in a lot of teams. Also, I do believe Mo meant rookie contracts not actual rookies so 2 a team may be a little high, but plausible.

I wonder if the NBA realizes what they are creating by on one hand saying they want to pay superstars ridiculous sums on a supermax contract.

but on the other hand, punish teams for paying guys those contracts....

what ultimately ends up happening in reality is that teams will still pay the top end players. and then the middle class guys instead of seeing their salaries rise will end up seeing their salaries cut. guys like fred van fleet wont make $40million (which was kind of ridiculous) they will end up seeing their salaries drastically cut as teams prioritize who they want

same thing is happening in the NFL. Quarterback salaries are going through the roof. teams just are saying "nah we not gonna pay you guys" to certain positions as they allocate their funds.

while the leagues want to create more parity. what ultimately ends up happening is it creates a top-down roster where you have extremely highly paid guys. and guys being paid nothing. and if it works you just get a mediocre/worse product (see how many bad NFL games there are. even the chiefs weren't that great this year)

I think it's worth keeping in mind that using absolute numbers for NBA contracts is perhaps not the best way to think about them.

[dannyboy35]

  On paper I’d say D. Wright or Osman but both could make Pritchard cry ( maybe even publicly) and hurt chemistry.

[Moranis]

Yeah I ran the numbers somewhere and Grant's contract put him in the 4th highest on a team, but that doesn't account for rookies.  I think it is something like 2 rookies start on average, which bumps him to 6th on a team.  Grant got rotation player/spot starter money.  That is what he is and his minutes, even in Dallas reflect that.

The real issue he had in Dallas is he wasn't shooting well after the first couple weeks of the season.

How can 2 rookies start on average?  That would be 60 rookies starting on 30 teams.  I guess you mean on average 2 on rookie contracts are starting?  That seems possible but still high.

At any rate, I still think that DAL signed Grant thinking he was going to be a starter and he was a starter, until they realized he wasn't that good.  The Celtics didn't see him as a starter so they likely were offering less.  I suspect that moving forward, teams will use their NT-MLE (those that have one) on players that are expected to be starters, just like DAL did with Grant.

It is certainly true that teams resigning their own may pay more for a bench player, especially contending teams, but I don't think we are going to see all that much of that.  There will be top teams where all the starters make more than Grant, but that will be more the exception than the rule.  There will be 2-3 max or super max contracts, there will be a couple in the NT-MLE range or lower, and there will be rookie or min deals to fill out the roster.  That is how the CBA is going to force teams to build their rosters.

If teams are paying more than that for their bench players, they just aren't going to be able to remain competitive.

rookie contract. I thought that was obvious from the context of the discussion.

Grant may have been brought in to start, but they paid him like a bench player, which is the point.  Grant's contract was not starter money. It is bench money.

[celticsclay]

So I was kind of curious and did a little poking around. there are definitely quite a few teams, even contending teams with starters (non rookie contract) making less than Grant. I did not do an exhaustive list but some guys making less. For the suns (Gordon, Grayson Allen), clippers (Zubac and terrance man make about 11) Lakers Prince has started the overwhelming majority of their games and makes 4 million. Divencenzo for the Knicks is presumably also the starter moving forward and has already started a lot of games and makes about the same as Grant. For the bucks beasely only makes about 3 million and is a starter. The 76ers usually start one of melton, oubre or batum they all make 11 or less. Magic either start carter or  bitazde, both make less than Grant. Nets started DFS who makes about the same as Grant. Gafford, who has started all year for the wizards and will presumably start for dallas makes less than Grant. Tyus Jones was also a very similar contract value to Grant and has started every game. Caruso who has started the majority of the games for the Bulls makes 9 million. Then there are some teams that are playing a lot of guys on rookie contracts (spurs, rockets, thunder) that are kind of irrelevant to the discussion. Nuggets have kcp making almost the same as Grant as their 5th starter. These just happened to be the first teams I looked at, so will keeping adding to this post. But certainly seems teams playing two guys big money (like the Celtics with brown and Tatum) and a third player 30 million good chance are gonna end up having a cheap starter and it often is not a rookie contract, especially for contenders.

[keevsnick]

I think Grant was to some degree overrated in Boston.

People looked at him and thought he was a defensive game changer, but in reality he's only an okay defender. Great against bigger, stronger guys. Not so great against smaller, quicker guys. Doesn't really protect the rim. On offense he's a spot up shooter who doesn't do a lot else.

In short: He's fine as a rotation guy. If he's your 7th man who stands in the corner, that's totally fine. Just don't expect him to totally change your team. In Dallas they needed him to be their 4th or 5th bets player, and he's overstretched in that role.

I think Charlotte with rehabilitate him to some degree. They have creators like Ball, Miller.  By next deadline they might be able to flip him for positive value. He still has a skillset contenders need.

[Phantom255x]

I think we moved on from Grant at the right time. He definitely seemed to get in over his head after the 2022 Finals. Wanted to be an "instigator/jokester" of sorts in the league but he's far from that. Also it'd be a bit weird paying an 8th or 9th man here about 53M no matter how you cut it, and given our other guys on the roster.

Also I use social media often and even Dallas fans online got frustrated often with G-Will pump faking or hesitating on open 3s. Ring a bell? Yeah he's solid defensively and can definitely hold his own against elite bigs but even that is to an extent. I thought he did a great job in that role the last 2 postseasons being a 3rd body behind Horford/Timelord, but again, to an extent. 4/53M for that is a bit rich in my mind when you consider what we're paying a lot of the others on our roster (or what we will soon pay - Tatum's supermax, White extension, etc.)

With all that said, there's been a lot of former Dallas players that have struggled in Dallas but went elsewhere and are doing better. Porzingis did. So did DFS. Brunson left Dallas and has emerged as a near-superstar caliber player. That Dallas roster is not really constructed well (led by two dominant ball-handlers to begin with) and G-Will didn't work out either. We'll see how he does in Charlotte.

[Roy H.]

Nice debut for Grant tonight. 

[ozgod]

Draymond is asking for prayers for GWill.

Grant Williams’s hot start with his new home came to an end in a heated way on Friday.

In the closing moments of the Hornets’ 97-84 loss to the Warriors, Williams was among the few Charlotte players who took exception with Golden State guard Lester Quinones attempting a layup with about 12 seconds left. Hornets forward Miles Bridges goaltended Quinones’s shot attempt before pushing him.

As players rushed over to Quinones and Bridges, Williams got in the middle of it, going face-to-face with Quinones. Both players yelled at each other, getting separated a couple moments after going head-to-head. Williams and Quinones were ejected from the game for the altercation.

“Miles is my guy, that’s my little brother, so I’m not going to sit here and go in on Miles. Miles can do no wrong to me,” Green told reporters. “But Grant Williams got to stop it, man. He can’t keep being like this tough guy. It’s going absolutely wrong for him. Like he’s a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it’s not always fun over here. It’s not always a good time. I don’t know, man, he need to figure it out.”

“Talking too much kind of got you out of Dallas, like overdoing it and he over there talking too much now,” Green said. “So you might want to slow down and stop all the tough guy stuff. You want to be the president of the [Players Association] and stuff, man. You can’t be out here doing all that stuff.

“I don’t know what Grant Williams out here doing, man,” Green added. “He getting into it with everybody this year and then he came over to our bench and thought he was about to have a friend. Ain’t no friends for you over here, my man, like you got to go down there and talk to your guys. You can’t come over here and talk to us about what just happened with our players. Like no, we support [Quinones].”

“Pray for Grant Williams.”


https://x.com/NBCSWarriors/status/1761274845311250794?s=20

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2024/02/24/draymond-green-grant-williams-rant-video-scuffle-quote/?p1=hp_featurebox

Pot kettle black? 

[Roy H.]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

[ozgod]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

GWill definitely sees himself as some kind of enforcer and he's probably affected his career, I'm sure the refs are all over him like a cheap suit...kind of funny hearing the "he gotta stop being a tough guy" from Draymond though 

[Phantom255x]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

I've been saying the same since the 2022 Finals. Grant has tried to act like a knockoff version of Draymond and it's pretty much affected him since. He just isn't that guy. He also tries to be a jokester at times but I think he takes it too far. But anyways, glad to see Grant doing well with Charlotte now. He probably needed that bit of change in scenery.

[Goldstar88]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

I've been saying the same since the 2022 Finals. Grant has tried to act like a knockoff version of Draymond and it's pretty much affected him since. He just isn't that guy. He also tries to be a jokester at times but I think he takes it too far. But anyways, glad to see Grant doing well with Charlotte now. He probably needed that bit of change in scenery.

Grant trash talking Butler in the ECF and then Jimmy just torches him for like 10 consecutive pts… smh. Will never forget that… 

[Roy H.]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

I've been saying the same since the 2022 Finals. Grant has tried to act like a knockoff version of Draymond and it's pretty much affected him since. He just isn't that guy. He also tries to be a jokester at times but I think he takes it too far. But anyways, glad to see Grant doing well with Charlotte now. He probably needed that bit of change in scenery.

Yeah, that's when Grant changed I think, and it was a change for the worse. He was doing a lot of interviews at the time, bragging about how he did research to come up with trash talk to use against Draymond. Then he came out and laid an egg in the series.

Before that, his persona was more of a goofy younger brother. And he decided to remake his image into a goon. Nobody bought it, including his opponents, and most especially the refs.

I think at his core he's a good guy, and somebody who should be easy to root for.  But, I prefer the Settlers of Canaan dude over the fake tough guy.

[Phantom255x]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

I've been saying the same since the 2022 Finals. Grant has tried to act like a knockoff version of Draymond and it's pretty much affected him since. He just isn't that guy. He also tries to be a jokester at times but I think he takes it too far. But anyways, glad to see Grant doing well with Charlotte now. He probably needed that bit of change in scenery.

Grant trash talking Butler in the ECF and then Jimmy just torches him for like 10 consecutive pts… smh. Will never forget that… 

So in fairness, that moment right there to me actually said more about the Celtics as a team. Grant felt like the only one who seemed to try and out tough Miami. The rest of them including Tatum, Jaylen, Smart meanwhile just seemed to "coast" and were asleep for most of the series especially the first three games. Jaylen was even asked about that moment after Game 2 and literally avoided the question, to me that was extremely soft and pathetic from Jaylen.

But honestly, the 2023 season from Grant just wasn't good. Lot of pump fakes, poor shooting, poor defense at times (a regression), etc. Mazzulla may not have trusted him but Grant didn't do much to provide much doubt either.

[celticsclay]

"He can't keep being like this tough guy," Green said. "It's going absolutely wrong for him. Like he's a really nice guy and, and for some reason, he keeps like trying to jump on the unlikable side and I must tell you it's not always fun over here. It's not always a good time. I don't know, man, he need to figure it out."

Is Dray wrong?

(That said, to call Grant unlikable while supporting Bridges is a little sickening, even for Green."

Roy I want to kind of emphasis your second point cause i think it is actually the far more important part. Why is bridges being a person that beats the crap out of women less of an issue than whether Grant thinks he is a tough guy? Are the players just pretending that didn’t happen and why?