The last dance.. len bias

[konkmv]

Topic of the day and for the  days to come obviously.. watching the first 2 episodes one question popped out.. if anyone knows... has ever asked  anyone michael jordan his opinion about len bias? I have seen many guys saying he was better or the opposite.. but have we ever heard Jordan's opinion about bias?

[tenn_smoothie]

Michael Jordan thinks he is better than anybody and everybody. I can tell you what his answer would be. and you are right, there was a lot of opinion that favored Len Bias in that matchup. It was a brilliant move by Red to get that draft pick in the middle of another Celtics title run and Bias would have filled the one need that team had (athleticism) and would have been the future for the franchise. I am still sick about losing him all these years later.

Here's a comparison for you - think if the Lakers had somehow lost James Worthy after they traded to get his draft position in the early 80's ? It would have devastated them and they would have struggled winning a title the rest of that decade - kinda like the Celtics did, though we had the heart and guts to get to the Finals in '87, beaten up with injuries as we were.

[Moranis]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.  He certainly had real talent and potential (though there is a reason he wasn't the #1 pick so it isn't like he was a sure thing). 

That said, maybe Boston wins the 85 title with Gerald Henderson added to the team instead of that still future draft pick.

Maybe Seattle isn't quite so bad and that pick ends up worse (and that draft was pretty darn horrible on the whole). 

And that whole draft might be the greatest what if draft in NBA history.  I mean you had Bias at 2.  Chris Washburn at 3 (who failed 3 drug tests and received a lifetime ban after just 2 partial seasons).  The draft also had Drazen Petrovic, another player taken early.  Sabonis who didn't come over for a decade and as a shell of himself.  Daugherty who went 1 and looked like a clear HOFer in the making before his back gave out.  Roy Tarpley and William Bedford and their drug problems.  And the 3 most successful NBA careers were Rodman, Price, and Hornacek who were all 2nd round picks.  Just a really strange draft especially given the two prior ones were so good (84 with Hakeem, Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Robertson and 85 with Mailman, Mullin, Ewing, Dumars, Schrempf, Porter)

[tenn_smoothie]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

[Roy H.]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

[Moranis]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Terry Long, who was with Bias when he died, under oath said that Bias had used cocaine for years and introduced the drug to Long at 3 years prior to that night.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/05/28/witness-tells-of-bias-last-cocaine-party/426517df-c15f-44fc-8d43-fd0449508de7/

That was testimony under oath during the drug distribution trial of Lee Tribble.  Long's testimony about that night is pretty detailed in the WaPo article.  It paints a pretty vivid picture of perhaps a darkside to Bias.

A lot of that is confirmed in this LA Time article.  https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-08-19-sp-16982-story.html.  Of note, it says that while the medical examiner originally said it was his first experience with cocaine, they amended their report to say there was evidence that he had used it in the past. 

Put it all together and it seems like Bias was at least a casual cocaine user.  Probably not a heavy addict, but it certainly doesn't appear to be the first time he used cocaine, marijuana, and who knows what else (certainly was mixing alcohol in as well).  It was the mid-80's after all and that was a pretty common weekend occurrence among wealthier people.  I'm also not sure with all of the modern scrutiny if Bias would have gone 2.  It looks like there were a lot of red flags with him that would have given teams of today a lot more pause.

[tenn_smoothie]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

[Moranis]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

simple google search and all your questions are answered.  https://sports.yahoo.com/michael-jordans-bulls-traveling-cocaine-015240689.html

[SHAQATTACK]

i went for like 20 year not wanting to talk about his death .  It disturbed me at a young age to learn how unfair life can be .  smh

[OldSchoolDude]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

I grew up in the 70's and watched 80's and 90's basketball.  The teams in the 90's were better.   I'm not a fan of Jordan's probably because he played for a rival, sort of how i'm not a Lebron fan, but the guy was greatness and Scottie Pippin was so much better than he is remembered for today.   Both versions of the bulls team could defend and were extremely physical.  I think the second version with Rodman was better but I think either version wins titles in the 80's. 

[RPGenerate]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

Dude, I understand that sentiment that the Bulls teams wouldn't have been as successful if they played in the 80s (even if I disagree), but to say they wouldn't even win one title is a bit ridiculous.

[gouki88]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

Dude, I understand that sentiment that the Bulls teams wouldn't have been as successful if they played in the 80s (even if I disagree), but to say they wouldn't even win one title is a bit ridiculous.

Yeah, they definitely would have won in the late 80’s once Bird’s injuries got more serious

[Moranis]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

Dude, I understand that sentiment that the Bulls teams wouldn't have been as successful if they played in the 80s (even if I disagree), but to say they wouldn't even win one title is a bit ridiculous.

Yeah, they definitely would have won in the late 80’s once Bird’s injuries got more serious

I'm not so sure they get by the Pistons or Lakers before those teams got old in the early 90's.  The second Bulls grouping was a much better team, but I'm not sure they come together like that in the 80's either, especially guys like Rodman and Kukoc. 

The 90's are the 2nd weakest decade after the 70's in the sports history.  There was mass expansion and the early demise of several great players from the 80's - i.e. Bird's back, Magic with his disease, Thomas collapsing, etc.  left a void that was filled by Chicago, but the decade itself lacked great teams.  The Bulls were great, but they really didn't face any real challenges.  Seattle was the only other team they played in any Finals runs (aside from the old Lakers) that had the potential to be a great team.  I mean if you really look at the teams they were playing along the way, teams that were challenging them, they aren't very good historically.  I mean you are talking about the Knicks with Ewing buoyed by "all time greats" like John Starks, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Doc Rivers, and Charles Smith.  What a powerhouse.  A Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Rik Smith, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, and Mark Jackson pushed the Bulls to 7 games.  That team is a mid-level at best playoff team today.  There is a reason that the worst championship team in league history was in the 90's i.e. that first Hakeem title team.  The 90's just weren't very good on the whole. 

[slamtheking]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

Dude, I understand that sentiment that the Bulls teams wouldn't have been as successful if they played in the 80s (even if I disagree), but to say they wouldn't even win one title is a bit ridiculous.

Yeah, they definitely would have won in the late 80’s once Bird’s injuries got more serious

I'm not so sure they get by the Pistons or Lakers before those teams got old in the early 90's.  The second Bulls grouping was a much better team, but I'm not sure they come together like that in the 80's either, especially guys like Rodman and Kukoc. 

The 90's are the 2nd weakest decade after the 70's in the sports history.  There was mass expansion and the early demise of several great players from the 80's - i.e. Bird's back, Magic with his disease, Thomas collapsing, etc.  left a void that was filled by Chicago, but the decade itself lacked great teams.  The Bulls were great, but they really didn't face any real challenges.  Seattle was the only other team they played in any Finals runs (aside from the old Lakers) that had the potential to be a great team.  I mean if you really look at the teams they were playing along the way, teams that were challenging them, they aren't very good historically.  I mean you are talking about the Knicks with Ewing buoyed by "all time greats" like John Starks, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Doc Rivers, and Charles Smith.  What a powerhouse.  A Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Rik Smith, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, and Mark Jackson pushed the Bulls to 7 games.  That team is a mid-level at best playoff team today.  There is a reason that the worst championship team in league history was in the 90's i.e. that first Hakeem title team.  The 90's just weren't very good on the whole. 

pretty good assessment.  I agree those Bulls teams weren't good enough to beat any of the teams that won a title in the 80's.  They couldn't even get past the Pistons in the late 80's who I'd consider to be the weakest title teams of that decade.

[mmmmm]

A lot of what ifs in that whole ordeal.  Obviously a real shame Bias succumbed to his demons and who knows what might have been had he not.

Was it ever established whether Bias' cocaine use was a one-time celebration incident or whether he was a regular user or was he an occasional user ? Was the batch he and his friends got that night especially strong or did Bias, as a first time user, simply have no tolerance built up for the drug ?

Yeah, I’m not sure of this answer, either.  Did he have demons, or was he doing the same thing a lot of rich people were doing?  Jordan confirms the Bulls had cocaine parties, for instance.

Was Jordan's admission presented in this recent documentary "Last Dance" or did you read that elsewhere ? Did Jordan say that he joined in using cocaine with his teammates. Surprised he would taint his carefully managed image like that as well as threatening his health/fitness for basketball.

I won't be watching the espn doc -  Just never have been a Jordan fan and I believe the Bulls accomplishments during the relatively weak decade of the 90's are over-rated. I do not believe that group wins even one title if they had existed during the 80's.

Dude, I understand that sentiment that the Bulls teams wouldn't have been as successful if they played in the 80s (even if I disagree), but to say they wouldn't even win one title is a bit ridiculous.

Yeah, they definitely would have won in the late 80’s once Bird’s injuries got more serious

I'm not so sure they get by the Pistons or Lakers before those teams got old in the early 90's.  The second Bulls grouping was a much better team, but I'm not sure they come together like that in the 80's either, especially guys like Rodman and Kukoc. 

The 90's are the 2nd weakest decade after the 70's in the sports history.  There was mass expansion and the early demise of several great players from the 80's - i.e. Bird's back, Magic with his disease, Thomas collapsing, etc.  left a void that was filled by Chicago, but the decade itself lacked great teams.  The Bulls were great, but they really didn't face any real challenges.  Seattle was the only other team they played in any Finals runs (aside from the old Lakers) that had the potential to be a great team.  I mean if you really look at the teams they were playing along the way, teams that were challenging them, they aren't very good historically.  I mean you are talking about the Knicks with Ewing buoyed by "all time greats" like John Starks, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Doc Rivers, and Charles Smith.  What a powerhouse.  A Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Rik Smith, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, and Mark Jackson pushed the Bulls to 7 games.  That team is a mid-level at best playoff team today.  There is a reason that the worst championship team in league history was in the 90's i.e. that first Hakeem title team.  The 90's just weren't very good on the whole.

I concur with this assessment as well.