Poll

Two part quesiton:  Do you think Trump has done anything wrong (pick one of first 3 choices)?  Part 2 is what do you think of this alleged informant (pick one of the last 2 choices)

Trump willfully removed White House documents, including some classified, and tried to conceal them from the Achieves and the FBI
34 (45.9%)
Trump was careless with White House documents but did not willfully do anything wrong
3 (4.1%)
Trump did not do anything wrong at all, he is being framed and the FBI probably planted documents
6 (8.1%)
This alleged informant who recognized that Trump was concealing confidential White House documents did the right thing to report it to the FBI and should be considered a courageous patriot
31 (41.9%)
The informant should have been loyal to Trump and should have protected Trump even if Trump was willfully and unlawfully withholding documents
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Donald Trump and White House Records  (Read 19129 times)

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Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2022, 02:32:06 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Trump should have known he d be busted   :P

Hiding that stash of skin-Flicks was a bad idea  ;)

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2022, 03:13:13 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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DOJ/FBI/ IRS have been weaponized to take out any opposition to those not blue.

You cannot with a straight face tell me this isn't so when everyone in Trump's orbit is being cuffed for nothing burgers while:

Sandy Berger's home was never raided.
Lerner/Holder walk free while being found guilty of contempt of Congress.
Hillary having classified docs on a private server illegally. Lets not forget she destroyed evidence.
FBI agents walk despite lying to FISA courts in order to spy on Trumps campaign.
FBI working to get Flynn to lie so they can charge him with something.
Hunter Biden and the links with Joe selling the office are not cause for any raids.

The only reason this blatant banana republic style justice is being applauded is due to the left believing Trump and his people are litteral Nazis. Lets be real, many know this deep down but don't care what norms are broken as long as new Hitler goes away.

This is a far greater threat to our democracy than Jan 6th ever was.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2022, 03:16:45 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Moving on from the IRS and back to Trump and the White House Records, how do people feel about Trump now calling for calm or lowering the temperature?  It is as if he feels no responsibility for his supporters having their temperature raised in the first place.

McCarthy was saying things like preserve your records Garland, we are coming for you if we get the majority in the house.  Do you think the temperature would need lowering if McCarthy had said even though I don't believe Trump did anything wrong, I support the FBI and the judge that approved the search warrant.  Or how about Trump is being investigated just like Hillary was investigated and I will reserve further comment until all the facts are known.

Or how about I am very concerned that Donald Trump was in possession of White House documents that should have been turned over long ago but I trust the FBI to perform a fair and thorough investigation and I will not make any further judgements or comments until all the facts are known.

Repugnant, provocative comments from Newt, Rand, Marco, Fox News… suggesting FBI planted documents (no evidence required) - truly an amazingly despicable response, following Donald’s lead, clearly riling up the volatile base….   The one I like best was Rick Scott’s Gestapo reference.  Yes, Rick, a legal search in America in which probable cause was established and proceeded with a magistrate’s approval (apparently following multiple requests for the documents), sounds just like the Gestapo.  So, not only astoundingly stupid, but also fueling anger toward FBI, DOJ, Biden, and Dems when you know full well that some Trumpists are teetering on the edge and just need a nudge to engage in violence.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2022, 03:40:49 PM »

Online nickagneta

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DOJ/FBI/ IRS have been weaponized to take out any opposition to those not blue.

You cannot with a straight face tell me this isn't so when everyone in Trump's orbit is being cuffed for nothing burgers while:

Sandy Berger's home was never raided.
Lerner/Holder walk free while being found guilty of contempt of Congress.
Hillary having classified docs on a private server illegally. Lets not forget she destroyed evidence.
FBI agents walk despite lying to FISA courts in order to spy on Trumps campaign.
FBI working to get Flynn to lie so they can charge him with something.
Hunter Biden and the links with Joe selling the office are not cause for any raids.

The only reason this blatant banana republic style justice is being applauded is due to the left believing Trump and his people are litteral Nazis. Lets be real, many know this deep down but don't care what norms are broken as long as new Hitler goes away.

This is a far greater threat to our democracy than Jan 6th ever was.
You really need to get off the far right websites and YouTube sites and jump into some places that are based in the real world and facts.

Trump's biggest crime might be convincing millions of Americans that he is the truth teller and only concerned about them, rather than that he is a lifelong liar, grifter and criminal who has parlayed his wealth given to him by his family decades ago into enough wealth to keep him wealthy, in a position of power and out of jail.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2022, 03:52:27 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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DOJ/FBI/ IRS have been weaponized to take out any opposition to those not blue.

You cannot with a straight face tell me this isn't so when everyone in Trump's orbit is being cuffed for nothing burgers while:

Sandy Berger's home was never raided.
Lerner/Holder walk free while being found guilty of contempt of Congress.
Hillary having classified docs on a private server illegally. Lets not forget she destroyed evidence.
FBI agents walk despite lying to FISA courts in order to spy on Trumps campaign.
FBI working to get Flynn to lie so they can charge him with something.
Hunter Biden and the links with Joe selling the office are not cause for any raids.

The only reason this blatant banana republic style justice is being applauded is due to the left believing Trump and his people are litteral Nazis. Lets be real, many know this deep down but don't care what norms are broken as long as new Hitler goes away.

This is a far greater threat to our democracy than Jan 6th ever was.
You really need to get off the far right websites and YouTube sites and jump into some places that are based in the real world and facts.

Trump's biggest crime might be convincing millions of Americans that he is the truth teller and only concerned about them, rather than that he is a lifelong liar, grifter and criminal who has parlayed his wealth given to him by his family decades ago into enough wealth to keep him wealthy, in a position of power and out of jail.

Yes it's so far right of me to suggest equal treatment under the law for both dems and repubs. I know I'm crazy. And lemme guess, all those people I mentioned were just targets of a vast right wing conspiracy.

What's sad is you seem to be ok with 1 sided justice. Since your a cultured man and I'm just some pleb who is brainwashed by fox, care to explain operation "crossfire hurricane?" I'm sure you know since you obviously must read all sides ans are fair and balanced

Do you enjoy being condescending? Don't reply unless you can have some respect.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 04:02:25 PM by angryguy77 »

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2022, 03:57:04 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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Moving on from the IRS and back to Trump and the White House Records, how do people feel about Trump now calling for calm or lowering the temperature?  It is as if he feels no responsibility for his supporters having their temperature raised in the first place.

McCarthy was saying things like preserve your records Garland, we are coming for you if we get the majority in the house.  Do you think the temperature would need lowering if McCarthy had said even though I don't believe Trump did anything wrong, I support the FBI and the judge that approved the search warrant.  Or how about Trump is being investigated just like Hillary was investigated and I will reserve further comment until all the facts are known.

Or how about I am very concerned that Donald Trump was in possession of White House documents that should have been turned over long ago but I trust the FBI to perform a fair and thorough investigation and I will not make any further judgements or comments until all the facts are known.

Repugnant, provocative comments from Newt, Rand, Marco, Fox News… suggesting FBI planted documents (no evidence required) - truly an amazingly despicable response, following Donald’s lead, clearly riling up the volatile base….   The one I like best was Rick Scott’s Gestapo reference.  Yes, Rick, a legal search in America in which probable cause was established and proceeded with a magistrate’s approval (apparently following multiple requests for the documents), sounds just like the Gestapo.  So, not only astoundingly stupid, but also fueling anger toward FBI, DOJ, Biden, and Dems when you know full well that some Trumpists are teetering on the edge and just need a nudge to engage in violence.

You are aware the fbi took the Steele dossier which knew it was false and used it for fisa warrants right? Lol, no way they would do something  shady now.

I mean it's not like the FBI had an "insurance" policy to keep him out of office. But I'm sure you guys know all about that right?

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2022, 04:29:33 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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DOJ/FBI/ IRS have been weaponized to take out any opposition to those not blue.

You cannot with a straight face tell me this isn't so when everyone in Trump's orbit is being cuffed for nothing burgers while:

Sandy Berger's home was never raided.
Lerner/Holder walk free while being found guilty of contempt of Congress.
Hillary having classified docs on a private server illegally. Lets not forget she destroyed evidence.
FBI agents walk despite lying to FISA courts in order to spy on Trumps campaign.
FBI working to get Flynn to lie so they can charge him with something.
Hunter Biden and the links with Joe selling the office are not cause for any raids.

The only reason this blatant banana republic style justice is being applauded is due to the left believing Trump and his people are litteral Nazis. Lets be real, many know this deep down but don't care what norms are broken as long as new Hitler goes away.

This is a far greater threat to our democracy than Jan 6th ever was.

I said something like this earlier in the thread, but if your point is that everyone commits crimes, then you believe that either:

  • We should start holding them accountable
  • We should never hold them accountable


So, what's wrong with holding Trump accountable?
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #157 on: August 17, 2022, 11:51:04 AM »

Offline heyvik

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DOJ/FBI/ IRS have been weaponized to take out any opposition to those not blue.

You cannot with a straight face tell me this isn't so when everyone in Trump's orbit is being cuffed for nothing burgers while:

Sandy Berger's home was never raided.
Lerner/Holder walk free while being found guilty of contempt of Congress.
Hillary having classified docs on a private server illegally. Lets not forget she destroyed evidence.
FBI agents walk despite lying to FISA courts in order to spy on Trumps campaign.
FBI working to get Flynn to lie so they can charge him with something.
Hunter Biden and the links with Joe selling the office are not cause for any raids.

The only reason this blatant banana republic style justice is being applauded is due to the left believing Trump and his people are litteral Nazis. Lets be real, many know this deep down but don't care what norms are broken as long as new Hitler goes away.

This is a far greater threat to our democracy than Jan 6th ever was.

I said something like this earlier in the thread, but if your point is that everyone commits crimes, then you believe that either:

  • We should start holding them accountable
  • We should never hold them accountable


So, what's wrong with holding Trump accountable?

I think a few people are waiting for those on the Right to answer these questions.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #158 on: August 17, 2022, 11:53:24 AM »

Offline heyvik

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I think this proves knowledge and intent on the documents in question. He KNEW he had them and wanted to keep them. I think this makes the DOJ case easier to prove, especially after finding out that they previously spoke to Philbin and Cippilione.

Quote
The New York Times reported on Tuesday that Mr Trump flat-out refused to return boxes of documents, including some that apparently were marked classified, when approached by his former deputy White House counsel, Patrick Philbin.

And he wasn’t alone – multiple other aides to the president reportedly told him the same thing. But Mr Trump resisted, telling them “it’s not theirs, it’s mine” on several occaisions, referring to the stash of documents.

The new reporting could help the Justice Department prove its case if charges are brought against him for the retention of classified materials, as it demonstrates that Mr Trump could or should have known that what he was doing was criminal in nature.

The former president has rolled through a number of conspiracies and thin defences since the raid at his estate last Monday. He has baselessly accused his predecessor, Barack Obama, of doing the same thing, while also speculating that FBI agents will plant incriminating evidence in the boxes seized from his residence.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #159 on: August 17, 2022, 02:24:51 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think this proves knowledge and intent on the documents in question. He KNEW he had them and wanted to keep them. I think this makes the DOJ case easier to prove, especially after finding out that they previously spoke to Philbin and Cippilione.

Quote
The New York Times reported on Tuesday that Mr Trump flat-out refused to return boxes of documents, including some that apparently were marked classified, when approached by his former deputy White House counsel, Patrick Philbin.

And he wasn’t alone – multiple other aides to the president reportedly told him the same thing. But Mr Trump resisted, telling them “it’s not theirs, it’s mine” on several occaisions, referring to the stash of documents.

The new reporting could help the Justice Department prove its case if charges are brought against him for the retention of classified materials, as it demonstrates that Mr Trump could or should have known that what he was doing was criminal in nature.

The former president has rolled through a number of conspiracies and thin defences since the raid at his estate last Monday. He has baselessly accused his predecessor, Barack Obama, of doing the same thing, while also speculating that FBI agents will plant incriminating evidence in the boxes seized from his residence.

The legal aspect is interesting.  The documents probably fall under different statutes.

If something is a government / presidential record, it belongs to the government.  However, the Presidential Records Act isn't a criminal statute.  However, under the theory that Trump took something that didn't belong to him, it's still theft.  Whether it's misdemeanor theft or felony theft would be an open question, I suspect.

Then, there are statutes related to classified documents.  Here's where Trump's "I declassified them" defense comes in.  I think that declassifying documents without following a formal process is stupid, but is it plausible under the presidential power?  I don't know.  As far as I'm aware, there is no *law* that requires a formal classification process for the president, but there are certainly procedures.

Then, there's the Espionage Act, which doesn't necessarily care about classified or unclassified.  Rather, it cares about "defense" documents.  Were any of the documents related to the national defense?  If so, it probably doesn't matter a lot if Trump snapped his fingers and declassified them.

All that said with the usual caveat of "I'm definitely not a specialist in government records, and haven't looked at any of the original material, so I'm basically just guessing."


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #160 on: August 17, 2022, 04:04:24 PM »

Online nickagneta

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I think this proves knowledge and intent on the documents in question. He KNEW he had them and wanted to keep them. I think this makes the DOJ case easier to prove, especially after finding out that they previously spoke to Philbin and Cippilione.

Quote
The New York Times reported on Tuesday that Mr Trump flat-out refused to return boxes of documents, including some that apparently were marked classified, when approached by his former deputy White House counsel, Patrick Philbin.

And he wasn’t alone – multiple other aides to the president reportedly told him the same thing. But Mr Trump resisted, telling them “it’s not theirs, it’s mine” on several occaisions, referring to the stash of documents.

The new reporting could help the Justice Department prove its case if charges are brought against him for the retention of classified materials, as it demonstrates that Mr Trump could or should have known that what he was doing was criminal in nature.

The former president has rolled through a number of conspiracies and thin defences since the raid at his estate last Monday. He has baselessly accused his predecessor, Barack Obama, of doing the same thing, while also speculating that FBI agents will plant incriminating evidence in the boxes seized from his residence.

The legal aspect is interesting.  The documents probably fall under different statutes.

If something is a government / presidential record, it belongs to the government.  However, the Presidential Records Act isn't a criminal statute.  However, under the theory that Trump took something that didn't belong to him, it's still theft.  Whether it's misdemeanor theft or felony theft would be an open question, I suspect.

Then, there are statutes related to classified documents.  Here's where Trump's "I declassified them" defense comes in.  I think that declassifying documents without following a formal process is stupid, but is it plausible under the presidential power?  I don't know.  As far as I'm aware, there is no *law* that requires a formal classification process for the president, but there are certainly procedures.

Then, there's the Espionage Act, which doesn't necessarily care about classified or unclassified.  Rather, it cares about "defense" documents.  Were any of the documents related to the national defense?  If so, it probably doesn't matter a lot if Trump snapped his fingers and declassified them.

All that said with the usual caveat of "I'm definitely not a specialist in government records, and haven't looked at any of the original material, so I'm basically just guessing."
Been said a lot across media that the classified designation for the three statutes mentioned in the search warrant does not matter. It probably helps to explain the serious extent of the crimes and the serious nature of the documents, but it does not look like that how they were classified matters. The laws cited were probably chosen for that reason.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 05:51:50 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #161 on: August 17, 2022, 05:27:15 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think this proves knowledge and intent on the documents in question. He KNEW he had them and wanted to keep them. I think this makes the DOJ case easier to prove, especially after finding out that they previously spoke to Philbin and Cippilione.

Quote
The New York Times reported on Tuesday that Mr Trump flat-out refused to return boxes of documents, including some that apparently were marked classified, when approached by his former deputy White House counsel, Patrick Philbin.

And he wasn’t alone – multiple other aides to the president reportedly told him the same thing. But Mr Trump resisted, telling them “it’s not theirs, it’s mine” on several occaisions, referring to the stash of documents.

The new reporting could help the Justice Department prove its case if charges are brought against him for the retention of classified materials, as it demonstrates that Mr Trump could or should have known that what he was doing was criminal in nature.

The former president has rolled through a number of conspiracies and thin defences since the raid at his estate last Monday. He has baselessly accused his predecessor, Barack Obama, of doing the same thing, while also speculating that FBI agents will plant incriminating evidence in the boxes seized from his residence.

OK, so the list goes on.  In addition to Archives requesting them a couple of times and Trump refusing, and Trump failing to fully comply with a subpoena, we can add that his lawyers told him he shouldn't take them in the first place.

But it is an overreach for the "government" to execute a search warrant and take them back?

He has lied so many times just regarding this issue, but the GOP still defends him and in many cases cheer him on (and cheer on those who blame the FBI for doing their job).  Is it really OK to say yeah, Trump stole government documents for no apparent reason but he cut corporate taxes (which only added to the deficit/debt) so it is OK.  I am proud of what the administration accomplished.  Really?  Who can be proud of this?

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2022, 03:04:45 PM »

Offline heyvik

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Judge orders that some of the affidavit can be made public.

WOW!

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2022, 03:43:02 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Judge orders that some of the affidavit can be made public.

WOW!

That’s a surprise.   I wonder what the reasons are for releasing what will be released. And then if that creates implications for what wasn’t released.

Re: Donald Trump and White House Records
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2022, 03:49:20 PM »

Offline heyvik

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Judge orders that some of the affidavit can be made public.

WOW!

That’s a surprise.   I wonder what the reasons are for releasing what will be released. And then if that creates implications for what wasn’t released.

I think the judge took into consideration that this is a high profile type of case and transparency maybe needed. I don't think they will release all of the essential information like regarding witnesses/types of documents found but I think they will release some other information that will satisfy some people. Either way it doesn't look good for Trump and his line of excuses. Some of the information may contain information about how/why the search was necessary and the reluctance of the Trump camp to hand over the documents.