Author Topic: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?  (Read 3245 times)

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Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2021, 08:22:07 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Red's playoff record before Russell was 8-15 and he never coached after Russell.  And he was coaching several HOFers in their prime so it wasn't like the team was devoid of talent.  Also, Russell the coach without Russell the player coached 5 seasons making the playoffs twice and sporting a 6-9 record in those playoffs.  It certainly seems to me that Russell the player is what made Red and Russell the coaches so successful, which is why I brought this question up.  I think many of us often equate Red, the GM, with Red, the coach, and they aren't the same thing.

Who is he competing with?

Phil Jackson, who didnít ever do anything without having the most talented rosters in the league, including one team with the GOAT and one team with 2 top 15 all time players?

Pop, who has been thoroughly mediocre without top 10 all timer Tim Duncan flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers?

Pat Riley, whose most recent championship was fixed and who beyond that didnít win anything without 2 top 5-6 all time players?

Spo, who hasnít done anything without a top 3 all time player flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers including a top 3 all time SG?

Based on your argument against Red, there is no #1 all time coach.
Red's 1st season he had Cousy and Macauley.  Year 2 he added Sharman.  Year 5 he added Ramsey (he missed year 6 in the military but was back for Bill and Tommy's rookie year).  And then Bill came (along with Tommy) - obviously Red traded Macauley to get Bill, but they also added KC Jones in that draft.  So Red, with 3 or 4 HOFers, never even made the Finals (and they only had to win 1 series many of those years to do it).  And it isn't like there were mega teams winning championships through that stretch.  As an example, the Rochester Royals won with Bob Davies and Arnie Risen.  The year the Royals won, Boston lost 2-0 to the Knicks led by Harry Gallatin and Vince Boryla.  Dolph Schayes and a bunch of scrubs won the title for the Syracuse Nationals.  The Lakers picked up 5 titles and they did have a pretty deep team behind Mikan, but the Celtics never even made it to the Lakers.

Red never coached after Bill so it is hard to say how much influence Red actually had on winning those titles, but we have plenty of evidence that Bill was just flat out a winner.  He won everywhere he went.  Back-to-back college championships, Olympic gold medal, and of course the 2 championships in 3 seasons he won as a player/coach after Red retired. 

Red was a master GM.  the trade to acquire Bill alone could have made an entire career, but without Bill he clearly doesn't win a title, despite coaching a team with a heck of a lot of HOFers.  And you obviously need great players to win titles, but Red had plenty of HOFers in their prime before Bill and he never even made the Finals, often losing to inferior teams on paper.   I'm just not sure how good a coach Red actually was.  GM unquestioned best of all time, coach I'm just not so sure.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2021, 09:51:18 PM »

Online hpantazo

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Popovich is SOOOOO Overrated. Ping Pong Balls in 1997 gave him his entire coaching career. He even blew a Championship to Miami by having Duncan on the bench, NOT getting the 2 rebounds that would have secured a title.


Red is #1....certainly not Phil Jackson either--who could only coach Stacked teams in place, ready to win---was a complete failure as GM of the Knicks too.


Who knows...if those ping pong balls in 97 had gone the other way, we could have been arguing today in favor of Pitino as one of the greatest NBA coaches of all-time instead of the utter disaster he turned out to be.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2021, 11:33:35 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't really understand the point of this thread. Like we literally could do this with ever good coach in the history of the NBA. Pops team right now is 10-16. He was pretty brutal last year. Phil Jackson never wont with out multiple hall of famers. What is the point of trying to assume how good a bunch of players were 25 years before most of the board was even alive. Moranis, you obviously never saw any of these guys even play in person, and there is very limited footage from that era. So you are like looking at random stats and trying to determine how good red was as a coach? I really don't get the point.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2021, 12:12:27 AM »

Online Kuberski33

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Popovich is SOOOOO Overrated. Ping Pong Balls in 1997 gave him his entire coaching career.
Correct.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2021, 12:57:07 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Red's playoff record before Russell was 8-15 and he never coached after Russell.  And he was coaching several HOFers in their prime so it wasn't like the team was devoid of talent.  Also, Russell the coach without Russell the player coached 5 seasons making the playoffs twice and sporting a 6-9 record in those playoffs.  It certainly seems to me that Russell the player is what made Red and Russell the coaches so successful, which is why I brought this question up.  I think many of us often equate Red, the GM, with Red, the coach, and they aren't the same thing.

Who is he competing with?

Phil Jackson, who didnít ever do anything without having the most talented rosters in the league, including one team with the GOAT and one team with 2 top 15 all time players?

Pop, who has been thoroughly mediocre without top 10 all timer Tim Duncan flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers?

Pat Riley, whose most recent championship was fixed and who beyond that didnít win anything without 2 top 5-6 all time players?

Spo, who hasnít done anything without a top 3 all time player flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers including a top 3 all time SG?

Based on your argument against Red, there is no #1 all time coach.
Red's 1st season he had Cousy and Macauley.  Year 2 he added Sharman.  Year 5 he added Ramsey (he missed year 6 in the military but was back for Bill and Tommy's rookie year).  And then Bill came (along with Tommy) - obviously Red traded Macauley to get Bill, but they also added KC Jones in that draft.  So Red, with 3 or 4 HOFers, never even made the Finals (and they only had to win 1 series many of those years to do it).  And it isn't like there were mega teams winning championships through that stretch.  As an example, the Rochester Royals won with Bob Davies and Arnie Risen.  The year the Royals won, Boston lost 2-0 to the Knicks led by Harry Gallatin and Vince Boryla.  Dolph Schayes and a bunch of scrubs won the title for the Syracuse Nationals.  The Lakers picked up 5 titles and they did have a pretty deep team behind Mikan, but the Celtics never even made it to the Lakers.

Red never coached after Bill so it is hard to say how much influence Red actually had on winning those titles, but we have plenty of evidence that Bill was just flat out a winner.  He won everywhere he went.  Back-to-back college championships, Olympic gold medal, and of course the 2 championships in 3 seasons he won as a player/coach after Red retired. 

Red was a master GM.  the trade to acquire Bill alone could have made an entire career, but without Bill he clearly doesn't win a title, despite coaching a team with a heck of a lot of HOFers.  And you obviously need great players to win titles, but Red had plenty of HOFers in their prime before Bill and he never even made the Finals, often losing to inferior teams on paper.   I'm just not sure how good a coach Red actually was.  GM unquestioned best of all time, coach I'm just not so sure.

You didnít address even a single word of my post.

My entire post was about his competition and you didnít mention a single one of them.
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Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2021, 01:18:02 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Red's playoff record before Russell was 8-15 and he never coached after Russell.  And he was coaching several HOFers in their prime so it wasn't like the team was devoid of talent.  Also, Russell the coach without Russell the player coached 5 seasons making the playoffs twice and sporting a 6-9 record in those playoffs.  It certainly seems to me that Russell the player is what made Red and Russell the coaches so successful, which is why I brought this question up.  I think many of us often equate Red, the GM, with Red, the coach, and they aren't the same thing.

Who is he competing with?

Phil Jackson, who didnít ever do anything without having the most talented rosters in the league, including one team with the GOAT and one team with 2 top 15 all time players?

Pop, who has been thoroughly mediocre without top 10 all timer Tim Duncan flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers?

Pat Riley, whose most recent championship was fixed and who beyond that didnít win anything without 2 top 5-6 all time players?

Spo, who hasnít done anything without a top 3 all time player flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers including a top 3 all time SG?

Based on your argument against Red, there is no #1 all time coach.
Red's 1st season he had Cousy and Macauley.  Year 2 he added Sharman.  Year 5 he added Ramsey (he missed year 6 in the military but was back for Bill and Tommy's rookie year).  And then Bill came (along with Tommy) - obviously Red traded Macauley to get Bill, but they also added KC Jones in that draft.  So Red, with 3 or 4 HOFers, never even made the Finals (and they only had to win 1 series many of those years to do it).  And it isn't like there were mega teams winning championships through that stretch.  As an example, the Rochester Royals won with Bob Davies and Arnie Risen.  The year the Royals won, Boston lost 2-0 to the Knicks led by Harry Gallatin and Vince Boryla.  Dolph Schayes and a bunch of scrubs won the title for the Syracuse Nationals.  The Lakers picked up 5 titles and they did have a pretty deep team behind Mikan, but the Celtics never even made it to the Lakers.

Red never coached after Bill so it is hard to say how much influence Red actually had on winning those titles, but we have plenty of evidence that Bill was just flat out a winner.  He won everywhere he went.  Back-to-back college championships, Olympic gold medal, and of course the 2 championships in 3 seasons he won as a player/coach after Red retired. 

Red was a master GM.  the trade to acquire Bill alone could have made an entire career, but without Bill he clearly doesn't win a title, despite coaching a team with a heck of a lot of HOFers.  And you obviously need great players to win titles, but Red had plenty of HOFers in their prime before Bill and he never even made the Finals, often losing to inferior teams on paper.   I'm just not sure how good a coach Red actually was.  GM unquestioned best of all time, coach I'm just not so sure.

You didnít address even a single word of my post.

My entire post was about his competition and you didnít mention a single one of them.

Have you not seen him do this before? Itís a classic move

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2021, 05:25:15 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Only few people know it but Red had a winning record even before he joined the Celtics. He took the Washington Capitols to BAA Finals although he lost.

Capitols record under his tenure:

1947 - 49Ė11 (.817)
1948 - 28Ė20 (.583)
1949 - 38Ė22 (.633)

Celtics record before Red:

1947 - 22Ė38 (.367)
1948 - 20Ė28 (.417)
1949 - 25Ė35 (.417)

Celtics were really bad but Red managed to turn them into above .500 team instantly.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2021, 07:48:47 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Red's playoff record before Russell was 8-15 and he never coached after Russell.  And he was coaching several HOFers in their prime so it wasn't like the team was devoid of talent.  Also, Russell the coach without Russell the player coached 5 seasons making the playoffs twice and sporting a 6-9 record in those playoffs.  It certainly seems to me that Russell the player is what made Red and Russell the coaches so successful, which is why I brought this question up.  I think many of us often equate Red, the GM, with Red, the coach, and they aren't the same thing.

Who is he competing with?

Phil Jackson, who didnít ever do anything without having the most talented rosters in the league, including one team with the GOAT and one team with 2 top 15 all time players?

Pop, who has been thoroughly mediocre without top 10 all timer Tim Duncan flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers?

Pat Riley, whose most recent championship was fixed and who beyond that didnít win anything without 2 top 5-6 all time players?

Spo, who hasnít done anything without a top 3 all time player flanked by 2 other Hall of Famers including a top 3 all time SG?

Based on your argument against Red, there is no #1 all time coach.
Red's 1st season he had Cousy and Macauley.  Year 2 he added Sharman.  Year 5 he added Ramsey (he missed year 6 in the military but was back for Bill and Tommy's rookie year).  And then Bill came (along with Tommy) - obviously Red traded Macauley to get Bill, but they also added KC Jones in that draft.  So Red, with 3 or 4 HOFers, never even made the Finals (and they only had to win 1 series many of those years to do it).  And it isn't like there were mega teams winning championships through that stretch.  As an example, the Rochester Royals won with Bob Davies and Arnie Risen.  The year the Royals won, Boston lost 2-0 to the Knicks led by Harry Gallatin and Vince Boryla.  Dolph Schayes and a bunch of scrubs won the title for the Syracuse Nationals.  The Lakers picked up 5 titles and they did have a pretty deep team behind Mikan, but the Celtics never even made it to the Lakers.

Red never coached after Bill so it is hard to say how much influence Red actually had on winning those titles, but we have plenty of evidence that Bill was just flat out a winner.  He won everywhere he went.  Back-to-back college championships, Olympic gold medal, and of course the 2 championships in 3 seasons he won as a player/coach after Red retired. 

Red was a master GM.  the trade to acquire Bill alone could have made an entire career, but without Bill he clearly doesn't win a title, despite coaching a team with a heck of a lot of HOFers.  And you obviously need great players to win titles, but Red had plenty of HOFers in their prime before Bill and he never even made the Finals, often losing to inferior teams on paper.   I'm just not sure how good a coach Red actually was.  GM unquestioned best of all time, coach I'm just not so sure.

You didnít address even a single word of my post.

My entire post was about his competition and you didnít mention a single one of them.
You talked about the competition, but ignored the same arguments for Red, I was adding in that part.  So you talk about the negatives of the competition, without talking about the negatives of Red. 

But look at Phil.  The Bulls with Jordan and Pippen never won more than 50 games before Phil and made the ECF once.  With Phil and both MJ and Pip, they never won less than 55 games together, made 1 ECF and 6 Finals (along with the semis in MJ's partial season).  Jordan and Pippen never made the Finals on any team without Phil.  The Shaq/Kobe Lakers never made the Finals without Phil and in Phil's 5 seasons with them they went to 4, winning the first 3 with Phil.  The Lakers were a 34 win non-playoff team the year Phil walked away and then Phil came back and they were right back in the playoffs again and ended up winning 2 more titles with Kobe and Pau as the two best players (not exactly dominant all time players).   

There is plenty of evidence that Phil elevated teams taking them to new levels.  We don't have that with Red.  Red won when he had Bill.  Red did not when we he didn't have Bill, but Bill continued to win after Red (and before in college and international). 

All great coaches have great players and Red was 100% responsible for his great players as the GM that brought them there, but Bill Russell was so good, he could play on the court and coach the team to titles and the minute he retired, the Celtics went from winning the championship to not even making the playoffs.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2021, 09:15:21 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I don't really understand the point of this thread. Like we literally could do this with ever good coach in the history of the NBA. Pops team right now is 10-16. He was pretty brutal last year. Phil Jackson never wont with out multiple hall of famers. What is the point of trying to assume how good a bunch of players were 25 years before most of the board was even alive. Moranis, you obviously never saw any of these guys even play in person, and there is very limited footage from that era. So you are like looking at random stats and trying to determine how good red was as a coach? I really don't get the point.

I couldn't agree more. I saw this thread yesterday, but couldn't answer because I wasn't alive to ever see him coach. What I don't understand, is it seems like when someone mentions Red is the greatest coach of all time, the OP can't write enough about how wrong that person is. If the OP is so sure that Red is not the greatest coach of all time, then who does he think should hold that mantle? Actually, going back to the original post, Moranis doubts Red is in the top 3, so I would be very curious to know his top 3.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2021, 09:37:36 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't really understand the point of this thread. Like we literally could do this with ever good coach in the history of the NBA. Pops team right now is 10-16. He was pretty brutal last year. Phil Jackson never wont with out multiple hall of famers. What is the point of trying to assume how good a bunch of players were 25 years before most of the board was even alive. Moranis, you obviously never saw any of these guys even play in person, and there is very limited footage from that era. So you are like looking at random stats and trying to determine how good red was as a coach? I really don't get the point.

I couldn't agree more. I saw this thread yesterday, but couldn't answer because I wasn't alive to ever see him coach. What I don't understand, is it seems like when someone mentions Red is the greatest coach of all time, the OP can't write enough about how wrong that person is. If the OP is so sure that Red is not the greatest coach of all time, then who does he think should hold that mantle? Actually, going back to the original post, Moranis doubts Red is in the top 3, so I would be very curious to know his top 3.
I never saw Red coach, which is why I asked the question. Of the guys I've seen coach, I'd have Phil at 1, Brown at 2, and I'm not sure who I'd have at 3, but certainly Pop, Spo, Riley, Rudy T, and Sloan would be in the mix. Bird was also a great coach he just didn't do it very long so hard to say if his success on the bench would have been sustainable.  I never saw the early guys though, so I have no idea how to rate guys like Red which is why I started the thread.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2021, 09:44:57 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Iím confused.

Mo, you have long held that Wilt was better than Russell, and significantly so.

And yet, youíre discounting Red because you seem to think Russell was essentially ďGod modeĒ.  His greatness was so transcendent that coaching doesnít matter.

If Wilt is better than Russell, and Red added little value, why did Russell beat Wilt so much?


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Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2021, 10:04:59 AM »

Online nickagneta

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A lot of things Red innovated and developed in both individual play and team concepts have been copied and utilized by other coaches for decades, to the point they are the basics for teaching basketball at the most rudimentary of coaching levels.

Add that to his record as a coach at the highest level it was played at and his being the first coach to realize his star needed to be treated differently than other players and managing that within the locker room, and you have the genesis of how coaching is done in the modern era.

Red was the best coach ever because his record for winning titles consecutively on one team and his innovations are still a part of coaching today. I would liken it to Babe Ruth in baseball. Unbelievable success and records but also changing the game and the way it is played.

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2021, 10:57:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Iím confused.

Mo, you have long held that Wilt was better than Russell, and significantly so.

And yet, youíre discounting Red because you seem to think Russell was essentially ďGod modeĒ.  His greatness was so transcendent that coaching doesnít matter.

If Wilt is better than Russell, and Red added little value, why did Russell beat Wilt so much?
I've explained that many times because Bill was on a team with A LOT more great players.  Wilt is better than Bill, but Bill is still a top 10 player in league history.  The supporting cast makes a huge deal.  When Wilt's supporting cast got anywhere near Bill's, Wilt put together the greatest single season to that point in league history, which is still among the top 5 greatest seasons ever. 

Unless you are going to argue that rookie Meschery, old Arizin, Rodgers, Attles, Larese, and Gola are anywhere close to old Cousy, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, and Sanders then it is easy to see why Wilt was better, but Bill's teams won more (those were the 62 ECF teams that went 7).

Basketball is a team game where talent matters.  The late 50's/60's Celtics were quite simply far more talented top to bottom than the teams they played against.  That is absolutely a credit to Red the GM, but I'm not sure how much credit Red the coach should get for coaching a team with 5 or 6 HOFers in their prime (including a top 10 player all time, a top 10 PG all time, etc.) and playing teams with at most 3 other HOFers, even if one of those teams had the 4th best player in league history. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Where does Red, the coach, rate all time?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2022, 09:13:59 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I don't really understand the point of this thread. Like we literally could do this with ever good coach in the history of the NBA. Pops team right now is 10-16. He was pretty brutal last year. Phil Jackson never wont with out multiple hall of famers. What is the point of trying to assume how good a bunch of players were 25 years before most of the board was even alive. Moranis, you obviously never saw any of these guys even play in person, and there is very limited footage from that era. So you are like looking at random stats and trying to determine how good red was as a coach? I really don't get the point.

I think about this from time to time. If you were to take a poll to find out who most people think are the best NBA coaches of all time, I feel pretty confident you'd wind up with Red, Pat, Phil, and Pop.

But think about those guys...

Red never won without Russel. Pat never won without both Magic and Kareem until he dropped into a team that had Shaq and Wade coming off a 59 win season. Phil went from Jordan & Pippen to Shaq & Kobe. And Pop has never won without Duncan.

What does it mean? Maybe it means we don't really know how to evaluate coaches.
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