Poll

Which conference is deeper east or west

East
18 (81.8%)
West
4 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Poll: Which conference is deeper  (Read 6564 times)

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Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2022, 12:51:45 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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The Nets with Durant and Harden will be fine and who knows what Irving will bring.  They have enough role players around the top 2 that could beat anyone in a playoff series.  I'm not saying they will as I've pretty consistently maintained I think Milwaukee will repeat, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Nets won the title as Durant is the 2nd best player in the world and Harden certainly has the potential to be a top 5 player (and absolutely should be a top 10 player).  Now Harden hasn't played all that well, but I think a lot of that was conditioning coupled with the rule changes.  I think this is supported by his last 8 games in which he has averaged 27.6 ppg, 10.1 apg, and 8.6 rpg and upped his FG% to 45% while shooting 3 extra more FT's a game (10.1 over the last 8 games).  In other words, Harden has started to look more like the old Harden the last couple of weeks.  Mills and Harris are good quality starters and the combination of Griffin and Aldridge has worked out.  Claxton seems to like doing the dirty work.  Bembry has flashes of top end potential and has some really good games.  Brown is competent.  The Nets should absolutely still be a top 3 title favorite (with Milwaukee and Golden State).

You donít have suns at same tier?

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2022, 08:15:53 AM »

Online Moranis

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The Nets with Durant and Harden will be fine and who knows what Irving will bring.  They have enough role players around the top 2 that could beat anyone in a playoff series.  I'm not saying they will as I've pretty consistently maintained I think Milwaukee will repeat, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Nets won the title as Durant is the 2nd best player in the world and Harden certainly has the potential to be a top 5 player (and absolutely should be a top 10 player).  Now Harden hasn't played all that well, but I think a lot of that was conditioning coupled with the rule changes.  I think this is supported by his last 8 games in which he has averaged 27.6 ppg, 10.1 apg, and 8.6 rpg and upped his FG% to 45% while shooting 3 extra more FT's a game (10.1 over the last 8 games).  In other words, Harden has started to look more like the old Harden the last couple of weeks.  Mills and Harris are good quality starters and the combination of Griffin and Aldridge has worked out.  Claxton seems to like doing the dirty work.  Bembry has flashes of top end potential and has some really good games.  Brown is competent.  The Nets should absolutely still be a top 3 title favorite (with Milwaukee and Golden State).

You donít have suns at same tier?
Nope and Vegas doesn't either (currently 4th in basically every futures site).  The Suns don't have the top 5 player that almost every champion has.  Those guys matter a great deal in the postseason which really does separate them from the top 3.  And I'm sure you know, since you bet, that the Nets have the best odds to win the title pretty much everywhere.  Now betting odds aren't the same thing as predictions, but they do reflect what both the casual bettors and the hard core gamblers are leaning at the moment and in that they are leaning Nets.  That of course makes sense, they have a top 2 player in the world, they have another guy that is arguably a top 5 player, they have the potential to have a top 20 guy, and have a lot of well fitting role players around them.  They were also less than an inch away from beating Milwaukee last year with injuries to 2 of their 3 best players. 

And to bring this back to this thread, the Nets also play in the East which really only has 1 other contender so they have an easier path to make the Finals then a team in the West.  I mean look at the Nets and Suns who are both currently the 2 seed.  If the playoffs started today and the 7th team won the play-in, the Suns would have to play the Lakers, then Jazz, then Warriors, while the Nets would have the Raptors, Heat, and Bucks/Sixers/Bulls (Bucks v. Sixers is currently a 1st round match-up).  Just so much easier for the Nets to even make the Finals than the Suns, let alone win the championship. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2022, 05:40:47 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The Nets with Durant and Harden will be fine and who knows what Irving will bring.  They have enough role players around the top 2 that could beat anyone in a playoff series.  I'm not saying they will as I've pretty consistently maintained I think Milwaukee will repeat, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Nets won the title as Durant is the 2nd best player in the world and Harden certainly has the potential to be a top 5 player (and absolutely should be a top 10 player).  Now Harden hasn't played all that well, but I think a lot of that was conditioning coupled with the rule changes.  I think this is supported by his last 8 games in which he has averaged 27.6 ppg, 10.1 apg, and 8.6 rpg and upped his FG% to 45% while shooting 3 extra more FT's a game (10.1 over the last 8 games).  In other words, Harden has started to look more like the old Harden the last couple of weeks.  Mills and Harris are good quality starters and the combination of Griffin and Aldridge has worked out.  Claxton seems to like doing the dirty work.  Bembry has flashes of top end potential and has some really good games.  Brown is competent.  The Nets should absolutely still be a top 3 title favorite (with Milwaukee and Golden State).

You donít have suns at same tier?
Nope and Vegas doesn't either (currently 4th in basically every futures site).  The Suns don't have the top 5 player that almost every champion has.  Those guys matter a great deal in the postseason which really does separate them from the top 3.  And I'm sure you know, since you bet, that the Nets have the best odds to win the title pretty much everywhere.  Now betting odds aren't the same thing as predictions, but they do reflect what both the casual bettors and the hard core gamblers are leaning at the moment and in that they are leaning Nets.  That of course makes sense, they have a top 2 player in the world, they have another guy that is arguably a top 5 player, they have the potential to have a top 20 guy, and have a lot of well fitting role players around them.  They were also less than an inch away from beating Milwaukee last year with injuries to 2 of their 3 best players. 

And to bring this back to this thread, the Nets also play in the East which really only has 1 other contender so they have an easier path to make the Finals then a team in the West.  I mean look at the Nets and Suns who are both currently the 2 seed.  If the playoffs started today and the 7th team won the play-in, the Suns would have to play the Lakers, then Jazz, then Warriors, while the Nets would have the Raptors, Heat, and Bucks/Sixers/Bulls (Bucks v. Sixers is currently a 1st round match-up).  Just so much easier for the Nets to even make the Finals than the Suns, let alone win the championship.

I can see the suns being lower, was just a bit surprised you thought so. A note on futures bets, those are not bets many serious gamblers make. Barring something really weird happen (a bulls bet could suddenly have value if Durant and Giannis got injured for the season) you can get very similar odds at the end of the season. You also can just make more doing open ended parlays for your team with their playoff series. Also if you make a very substantial bet you are just letting a casino hold your money for 8 months and making no interest on it. They really are fun bets made by fans, have insane vig and really shouldnít be as a measure what team is more likely to win the chip.

All that being said I expect there to be at least one or two major trades this year (another reason not to do futures bets). If the lakers are able to get a few more shooters and can dump off Westbrook they would have a much better chance of winning. It is hard for me to really see the 76ers getting nothing for Ben simmons the entire year (and do think this could risk upsetting embid). Underachieving teams like the Celtics and hawks could theoretically shake it up. I could also see the bulls making a move to win now if they think they have a finals shot because they have a few very interesting young pieces that donít really fit with the timeline of ball, demar and lavine. Patrick Williams probably has some pretty good trade value after having a good rookie year and being 20 years old.

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2022, 09:07:04 PM »

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Why would you be surprised I don't rate the Suns as highly as I do the Bucks, Nets, and Warriors.  I've been on this site for years expounding the virtue of a team needing a top 5 player, to not only win the title, but even make the Finals.  Sure you get some weird years every so often, but pretty much every champion, outside of 3, in the entire history of the sport has had a top 5 player on it or at least an arguable top 5 player, with the only real exceptions the 2014 Spurs (led by the greatest PF in history, a rising MVP candidate, and 2 other HOFers), the 2004 Pistons (with defensive dynamo Ben, and 3 or 4 other all star level players), and the 1979 Supersonics (with 2 HOFers).  Every other champion has at least arguably had a top 5 player on the team. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2022, 09:09:54 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Why would you be surprised I don't rate the Suns as highly as I do the Bucks, Nets, and Warriors.  I've been on this site for years expounding the virtue of a team needing a top 5 player, to not only win the title, but even make the Finals.  Sure you get some weird years every so often, but pretty much every champion, outside of 3, in the entire history of the sport has had a top 5 player on it or at least an arguable top 5 player, with the only real exceptions the 2014 Spurs (led by the greatest PF in history, a rising MVP candidate, and 2 other HOFers), the 2004 Pistons (with defensive dynamo Ben, and 3 or 4 other all star level players), and the 1979 Supersonics (with 2 HOFers).  Every other champion has at least arguably had a top 5 player on the team.

I think some would argue Paul is at least top 10 and maybe has been top 5 (against all odds aging wise). He had to finish too 7 mvp last year I would imagine. Tp if I have that wrong.

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2022, 10:39:54 PM »

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Why would you be surprised I don't rate the Suns as highly as I do the Bucks, Nets, and Warriors.  I've been on this site for years expounding the virtue of a team needing a top 5 player, to not only win the title, but even make the Finals.  Sure you get some weird years every so often, but pretty much every champion, outside of 3, in the entire history of the sport has had a top 5 player on it or at least an arguable top 5 player, with the only real exceptions the 2014 Spurs (led by the greatest PF in history, a rising MVP candidate, and 2 other HOFers), the 2004 Pistons (with defensive dynamo Ben, and 3 or 4 other all star level players), and the 1979 Supersonics (with 2 HOFers).  Every other champion has at least arguably had a top 5 player on the team.

I think some would argue Paul is at least top 10 and maybe has been top 5 (against all odds aging wise). He had to finish too 7 mvp last year I would imagine. Tp if I have that wrong.
I don't think a top finish in MVP has all that much bearing on whether or not a player is a top 5 player and have felt that way for years.

Paul is not a top 5 player and may very well not even be a top 10 player:  I think it is pretty easy to say all of these guys are clearly better players than Paul: Giannis, KD, Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, Doncic then you have guys like George, Morant, Gobert, or Mitchell who are in the same range or guys that haven't played all that well this year, but still have to be considered very good like Davis and Lillard (let alone Kawhi who obviously hasn't played and may not play).  Heck, I think you could argue Booker is a better player than Paul (I have Paul slightly higher, but close enough that it isn't out of the realm to argue).

The Suns are a very deep team with a lot of very good players.  Those teams are usually excellent in the regular season, but often aren't really contenders.  And yes, I know they were in the Finals last year, but they got very lucky in playing the Lakers with Lebron hobbling and then Davis going out when the Lakers were up 2-1.  They then faced the Murray-less Nuggets and the Kawhi-less Clippers.  I don't think they beat the Lakers or Clippers if they are healthy and certainly would have had a real battle against the Nuggets.  I say this not to discredit the run, but to point out I don't think that run is representative of the type of team the Suns actually are.  The Suns making the Finals again wouldn't be insane, but it would surprise me a lot unless they face a similar level of injury riddled teams along the way.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2022, 03:20:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Unfortunately cause of some very significant injuries it appears these conferences for depth are going to be a bit less competitive in the second half of season. Okc, Houston continue to be committed to tanking hard. The spurs and kings are bad enough that it doesnít really matter what they intend to do. Now after injury news for George (most likely out for season) and lillard (out at least two months) we have two more teams that are going to tank to some degree. (Portland loses their pick if they make playoffs). Pelicans also have no real path to being a solid team this year and who knows when see Zion. Just a lot of bad teams, some awful. I didnít want these debates to become one sided cause of injuries (also why I didnít really like presenting the east wasnít decimated earlier in hear as evidence. Yeah

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2022, 04:07:07 PM »

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Didn't OKC just beat the Nets?  I mean I get the Nets were down some players, but that seems like an easy game to lose if you are tanking, yet they put a beating on them.  OKC is a bad team, but I don't think they are actually tanking.  They keep coming up with wins in games a tanking team would not (they are bad so they still lose far more than they win, but there is a big difference between tanking and just being bad).  Houston is clearly tanking though. 

The 2 worst teams, both tanking, are in the East in Orlando and Detroit.  Atlanta just sold off a rotation player for a draft pick and apparently is open for business.  The Pacers are open for business.  The bad teams aren't just in the west. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2022, 05:39:08 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Didn't OKC just beat the Nets?  I mean I get the Nets were down some players, but that seems like an easy game to lose if you are tanking, yet they put a beating on them.  OKC is a bad team, but I don't think they are actually tanking.  They keep coming up with wins in games a tanking team would not (they are bad so they still lose far more than they win, but there is a big difference between tanking and just being bad).  Houston is clearly tanking though. 

The 2 worst teams, both tanking, are in the East in Orlando and Detroit.  Atlanta just sold off a rotation player for a draft pick and apparently is open for business.  The Pacers are open for business.  The bad teams aren't just in the west.

See sometimes we have good discussions and other times you donít really have much to say and you just write some silly not connected thoughts unrelated to the discussion. Does tanking mean a team never wins a game the rest of the season? No obviously it doesnít (or ml carr would be winless).
 Yesterday the nets did not play Claxton, Durant, Aldridge, mills, irving (of course harris too). That is what most would consider 6 of the 7 best players on their roster. Of course okc or Detroit or Orlando can win a game like that and they all have. Okc is clearly tanking. Last year they sent Horford away and basically Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. down sga when he could have played in second half of season. Is there any reason besides some general snark to think they wonít do that again this year? It would be terrible for the franchise to end up 8th worst record for integrity or whatever you are suggesting they are doing beating the nets backups. We donít have to discuss Houston because they have literally sat wall the entire season and are larger expected to dump Gordon at the deadline. The clippers have basically announced they are willing to tank publicly after George has gone seemingly out for the season. The telecasters last night were pointing out that the blazers will clearly tank now cause they have a really crappy record, are down lillard and lose their pick if it is outside the lottery.

You mention the hawks trading a rotation player they didnít want to pay at a position they had a logjam as evidence they are going to tank? Come on man I know you know how silly a comment that was. The hawks are desperately trying to make the playoffs as long as young and Collins are playing. Much like the Celtics They would completely alienate their franchise players if they didnít even make the play in game (and young has already proven temperamental).

The pacers are a candidate to potentially go into a rebuild, but all reports are that the pacers want packages that get them back similar talent players for sabonis or turner and have no interest in a full scale rebuild. Their team history also demonstrates that.

I was actually trying to be gracious in my post because much like I thought earlier when you were gloating over the Eastís struggling with covid, two teams shutting it down cause of serious injuries to star players goes against the spirit of the debate (and Iím not going to yell scoreboard if the clippers and blazers both lose 8 out of 10 to close the season.

Listen you make really great posts sometimes. You have had some really great posts with advanced stats that made me change my opinion on the long term viability of the brown and Tatum pairing. Iíve appreciated your historical knowledge on teams, all nba appearances and mvp votings for teams going back to players in the the 60ís. That makes it all the more frustrating when you completely mail it on a post like this and say silly stuff like okc isnít tanking cause they beat a nets team playing a rest game or the hawks are gonna tank the year after being in the ecf because they traded one of 5 wings they have and have luxury tax concernsÖ

Edit: kind of confused what the profanity was here, either I made a typo or there is some word that is considered profanity I had never thought of before. I thought I just said ďshut down sgaĒ
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 06:14:59 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2022, 07:39:10 PM »

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I just don't think the Thunder are tanking this year (I do think they were last year).  They are a terrible team, but that isn't anywhere near the same thing as tanking.  They have a very young team, which is growing, but they've had their vets in the lineup and rotation all season long (i.e. Favors and Muscala).  I mean Favors is playing more mpg than he was playing in Utah last year.  And sure their young players are playing as many minutes as they can handle, but the guys leading the team in minutes are guys you'd expect to be the core of their team going forward i.e. SGA, Dort, Giddey, Bazley, Mann, Robinson-Earl, Poku, etc.  Young guys, but they have no random shut down of players, they are playing their vets, and they are generally playing hard.  Now maybe they decide later to really tank, but that isn't now.

And no I don't think the Hawks are tanking, but they sold off a rotation piece for a future 1st round pick. No matter how you slice it, that is what they did, and that is absolutely the type of trade a tanking team would make.  Obviously that isn't to say the Hawks are in fact tanking, merely that they are making a tanking team trade.  Now perhaps that is setting them up to make a future trade, or maybe they've decided to get assets since the season isn't going well, but any time you trade a rotation player, especially a young one that you have future rights to, for a future 1st round pick, you have to question what is going on.   
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2022, 07:45:12 PM »

Online Moranis

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East cut the West lead to 3 games last week.  10 of the top 16 are in the East as well and the Warriors have fallen back some and are much closer to the pack, but Utah and Memphis are now 3 and 4 so the top 4 records are all in the West.  Bottom 2 are in the East and Indiana has now dropped back to 5th worst and a smidge worse than the Pelicans and Spurs.  Of course by SRS, the Pacers are actually 16th so they've probably played better than their record
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2022, 09:20:42 PM »

Offline Redz

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The Celtics entire division is at, or above, .500.  That's gotta be a first if that were to hold for the season.
Yup

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2022, 10:25:51 PM »

Online Moranis

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The Celtics entire division is at, or above, .500.  That's gotta be a first if that were to hold for the season.
It would not.  Wasn't even that long ago.  The worst record in the Northwest Division in the 2017-2018 season was Denver at 46-36 and they didn't even make the playoffs.  Portland won the division at 49-33, so they were all within 3 games of each other.  The Southwest did it in 2014-15 as well, with New Orleans bringing up the rear at 45-37 (they made the playoffs) while Houston at 56-26 won it.  Southwest did it in the 2011-12 season as well with Houston at 43-39 (not in the playoffs) bringing up the rear and 61-21 Spurs winning it.  The 05-06 Central division did not quite do it, but all 5 teams made the playoffs with the 40-42 Bucks bringing up the rear and the 64-18 Pistons winning it.  04-05 was the first time they had the 5 team divisions so I stopped looking at that point.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2022, 10:31:17 PM »

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3-1 for the West today, but the 1 was the Celtics, so a good day
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Poll: Which conference is deeper
« Reply #104 on: Yesterday at 11:24:20 AM »

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It is a 4 game lead for the West, right now, and before yesterday's games which were 1-1.  3 best teams in the West, but the Jazz have fallen all the way back to 7th currently (talk about a rough 2 days, at Golden State at night and then at Phoenix the very next night).  9 of top 16 in the East, while the 2 worst and 3 of 5 worst are in the East as the Spurs are now ahead of the Pacers.  East does have the 2 best teams not in the play-in and has a bit more record depth throughout the playoffs after the top 4.

Cavs not only survived their difficult stretch but thrived going 5-1 on their West trip and 3-1 since.  They are looking like they have staying power and are a legit team as they inch up towards a potential 1st round match-up with home court advantage.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08