Doc Rivers

[Who]

Enough with the four man bench units, too.  82games.com did a study a couple of years ago, showing -- predictably -- that teams that played four or five bench players on the court at a time universally got outscored by their opponents during such time periods.

There is no reason not to have at least two starters on the floor at all times.  It's just completely unacceptable.  That goes not just for last night, but as a general rule in the playoffs.

You know how many minutes Detroit played last night with more than three bench guys on the floor at one time?  Zero.

I agree and don't like it either

Still it's not the end of the world. Phil Jackson does it with LA (Odom), did in the past with LA (Kobe), did it in the past with Chicago (Pippen). That's a lot of success where this strategy has worked well.

On the bright side of the situation, I love Pierce being out there with the bench. He's exactly the type of player I like to see with a bench unit. A top scorer who can serve as a playmaker. Links the play together and gets his team good shots at the hoop. That Pierce led unit works really well when his game is on. On other nights when he's off it sometimes helps him get his aggressiveness and scoring touch back.

I'd rather two starters. Rondo would be choice to join Pierce there.

[2short]

Doc's unique rotations since arriving in boston leave him open for criticism any time we are not playing well.  I can't stand Sam out there, imo he's only played well a few times.  Leon brings so much...one point he's a dnp for games, then he appears to be our best bench player.  Again back to dnps, tony allen at this point his game depends so much on his confidence...well he has 0 now, probably useless to give him any minutes. etc etc
Our boat is in the ec finals, our captain is doc we have to live with it.

[Chris]

Doc's unique rotations since arriving in boston leave him open for criticism any time we are not playing well.  I can't stand Sam out there, imo he's only played well a few times.  Leon brings so much...one point he's a dnp for games, then he appears to be our best bench player.  Again back to dnps, tony allen at this point his game depends so much on his confidence...well he has 0 now, probably useless to give him any minutes. etc etc
Our boat is in the ec finals, our captain is doc we have to live with it.

Why are they so unique though?  Are they any stranger than the Spurs?  In one game Brent Barry played 21 minutes, Udoka 8, and Vaughn 4, In another, Barry played only 11 to Udoka's 25, and then  in another game, both Barry and Udoka played 16 each, while Vaughn played 17.

Role players minutes fluctuate.  It is how it works.  The C's are filled with interchangable role players who are all inconsistent.    If they were actually consistent, they would be playing all the time.  But they aren't.

[jay_jay54]

I noticed,in some playoff games,and especially the Spurs most recent win,the 3pt shot takes the other team by surprise a lot.I mean when a team,brings in a player who is consistently hitting the the 3pt shot,the other team,has to start readjusting their defensive schemes.Ginobili,for an example,was/made the big difference in the game 3.I feel,when Doc,puts House,Posey,and if we activated Scali,give them the greenlight on shooting the three point shot.I find we get stagnat on offense,trying to run the same tired plays over and over.After a few games,of playing the same team,they are on to what you got planned.Sometimes,a team,need to mix it up a little,make the game a little more interesting..We are not getting enough shots off a lot of the times,is one of the reason we are  losing in some games.Who cares about stats,if you win.I rather shoot 40%from the floor and win,than shoot 45%and lose.

[Neurotic Guy]

Doc's unique rotations since arriving in boston leave him open for criticism any time we are not playing well.  I can't stand Sam out there, imo he's only played well a few times.  Leon brings so much...one point he's a dnp for games, then he appears to be our best bench player.  Again back to dnps, tony allen at this point his game depends so much on his confidence...well he has 0 now, probably useless to give him any minutes. etc etc
Our boat is in the ec finals, our captain is doc we have to live with it.

Why are they so unique though?  Are they any stranger than the Spurs?  In one game Brent Barry played 21 minutes, Udoka 8, and Vaughn 4, In another, Barry played only 11 to Udoka's 25, and then  in another game, both Barry and Udoka played 16 each, while Vaughn played 17.

Role players minutes fluctuate.  It is how it works.  The C's are filled with interchangable role players who are all inconsistent.    If they were actually consistent, they would be playing all the time.  But they aren't.

Finding consistent solid performance from a role player is the ideal, but the C's have role players who fluctuate in performance from night to night. Sometimes finding the one who is clicking takes trial and error or hunches.  Note that the most consistent role players, Posey and PJ, have been the one's with the most consistent roles.  Makes sense -- not boneheaded at all.  Leon was on and off against Atlanta, and Eddie, BBD and Sam have all had ups and downs.  It's not Doc; it's who they are as players right now.  Truthfully, he's got mercurial starters to deal with as well (Rondo, Ray and Perk).

Yes, I ws screaming for an end to Sam's stint last night, but in reality it was not Sam that cost us. What really cost us was the fact that none of our stars played like a star.  

[Roy Hobbs]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

[guava_wrench]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Your 'better' sounds spurious. Cassell is much better than House against Detroit. Cassell is our only backup PG against Det, as House can not dribble against them. You can rant and rave all you want, but watch the video. House had his chances this series, but he is a bad matchup. that is why we signed Cassell.

I would be happy to see Cassell ride the pine in the finals when we won't face the same pressure on the ball.

I'm not sure what bizarro world people are posting from where House wasn't given a chance against Det. He has had opportunities and it was immediately obvious that it didn't work.

[Roy Hobbs]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Your 'better' sounds spurious. Cassell is much better than House against Detroit. Cassell is our only backup PG against Det, as House can not dribble against them. You can rant and rave all you want, but watch the video. House had his chances this series, but he is a bad matchup. that is why we signed Cassell.

I would be happy to see Cassell ride the pine in the finals when we won't face the same pressure on the ball.

I'm not sure what bizarro world people are posting from where House wasn't given a chance against Det. He has had opportunities and it was immediately obvious that it didn't work.

Sam is 2 for his last 25.  That's 8%.  If Sam can't play offense, he can't play defense, and he can't move the ball, what good is he?  His only skill is bringing the ball up?  Have Pierce do that, and get a player who contributes to at least one other aspect of the game in there.

If dribbling was the only skill we expected to get out of Sam, we should have signed one of the Harlem Globetrotters.

[Chris]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

Cassell hasn't been good, you are right.  But House gave the team nothing in the first two games as well.

I agree that Doc has a problem with not making changes within games, and its frustrating.  But he does make the adjustments in between games, when he determines something might come from it.  I am confident that if Cassell has another bad game, House will get another chance (although I don't expect it to make a difference).

Right now Doc is in a no-win situation, because other than the starters, Posey (although I think he has been pretty mediocre this series as well), and PJ, no one else has done anything to lay claim to a job.  Powe and Baby have both been pedestrian at best, House and Cassell have given next to nothing (and they have had equal opportunity in this series)...and Tony Allen checked out months ago.  So no matter who he has in there, people will be whining about it, unless someone actually performs (more than one game).

[Roy Hobbs]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

I know plus-minus isn't the end-all-and-be-all, but Powe is a +22 this postseason, while BBD is -26. 

Comparing Powe to BBD, with Powe on the court:

* Our effective field goal percentage is better by 7.7% (48.7% vs. 41.0%)
* Our effective field goal percentage allowed is better by 2.9% (46.2% vs. 49.1%)
* Our offensive production per 100 possessions is ridiculously better, by 20.9 points (115.1/100 vs. 94.2/100)
* Our defensive production per 100 possessions is better, by  3.8 points (106.6 vs. 110.8 )
* Our offensive rebounding jumps by 9.9 percentage points (35.1% vs. 24.3%)
* Our overall rebounding is better (we get 50.1% of overall boards, vs. 45.5%)
* We block more shots, and have a fewer percentage of our own shots blocked

The "BBD is much better on defense" dynamic doesn't play out in reality, and it didn't play out in the regular season, either.

As for House vs. Cassell, 82games.com only has a 40 minute sample for House, which isn't enough of a sample size to determine anything.  In the regular season, though, the offense was better with House over Cassell (109.3 pts/100 vs. 103.5 pts/100), as was the defense (100.3 pts/100 allowed, vs. 101.8 pts/100 allowed).

[Chris]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

I know plus-minus isn't the end-all-and-be-all, but Powe is a +22 this postseason, while BBD is -26. 

Comparing Powe to BBD, with Powe on the court:

* Our effective field goal percentage is better by 7.7% (48.7% vs. 41.0%)
* Our effective field goal percentage allowed is better by 2.9% (46.2% vs. 49.1%)
* Our offensive production per 100 possessions is ridiculously better, by 20.9 points (115.1/100 vs. 94.2/100)
* Our defensive production per 100 possessions is better, by  3.8 points (106.6 vs. 110.8 )
* Our offensive rebounding jumps by 9.9 percentage points (35.1% vs. 24.3%)
* Our overall rebounding is better (we get 50.1% of overall boards, vs. 45.5%)
* We block more shots, and have a fewer percentage of our own shots blocked

The "BBD is much better on defense" dynamic doesn't play out in reality, and it didn't play out in the regular season, either.

Sorry, that was a overgeneralization.  I meant that Powe is a defensive liability against Detroit, because they beat teams, by defeating their rotations, and rotations are where Davis has an advantage over Powe.

Davis has only played more than Powe in 6 games this postseason (out of 18).  Powe is also averaging twice as many minutes.  But Powe is just a tough matchup against Detroit.  He was given a chance in game 1, and looked lost on defense, and didn't do much of anything on offense.  In game 2, he just reinforced it by missing assignments right away.

Not to mention no one has been able to get the ball up against the Detroit interior defense, unless they are able to rise over the top (like KG), so that doesn't make it seem like Powe would be able to do much more on defense.

Detroit moves the ball until someone doesn't rotate.  Powe's biggest issue all season has been rotating, whereas Davis has been decent at it.

I don't care what the stats say, this is a bad matchup for Powe.

But honestly, I think neither of them should be playing in this series.  They should be using a 3 man big rotation with Perk, KG, and PJ.  They are the best team and interior defenders on the C's, and give them the size they need against this team.

[Scintan]

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

I know plus-minus isn't the end-all-and-be-all, but Powe is a +22 this postseason, while BBD is -26. 

Comparing Powe to BBD, with Powe on the court:

* Our effective field goal percentage is better by 7.7% (48.7% vs. 41.0%)
* Our effective field goal percentage allowed is better by 2.9% (46.2% vs. 49.1%)
* Our offensive production per 100 possessions is ridiculously better, by 20.9 points (115.1/100 vs. 94.2/100)
* Our defensive production per 100 possessions is better, by  3.8 points (106.6 vs. 110.8 )
* Our offensive rebounding jumps by 9.9 percentage points (35.1% vs. 24.3%)
* Our overall rebounding is better (we get 50.1% of overall boards, vs. 45.5%)
* We block more shots, and have a fewer percentage of our own shots blocked

The "BBD is much better on defense" dynamic doesn't play out in reality, and it didn't play out in the regular season, either.

Sorry, that was a overgeneralization.  I meant that Powe is a defensive liability against Detroit, because they beat teams, by defeating their rotations, and rotations are where Davis has an advantage over Powe.

Davis has only played more than Powe in 6 games this postseason (out of 18).  Powe is also averaging twice as many minutes.  But Powe is just a tough matchup against Detroit.  He was given a chance in game 1, and looked lost on defense, and didn't do much of anything on offense.  In game 2, he just reinforced it by missing assignments right away.

Not to mention no one has been able to get the ball up against the Detroit interior defense, unless they are able to rise over the top (like KG), so that doesn't make it seem like Powe would be able to do much more on defense.

Detroit moves the ball until someone doesn't rotate.  Powe's biggest issue all season has been rotating, whereas Davis has been decent at it.

I don't care what the stats say, this is a bad matchup for Powe.

But honestly, I think neither of them should be playing in this series.  They should be using a 3 man big rotation with Perk, KG, and PJ.  They are the best team and interior defenders on the C's, and give them the size they need against this team.

The only areas where Davis has an advantage over Powe are the buffet table and the outside shot. Since he's not getting the outside shots this series, let him go grab some sandwiches while Powe gets his minutes behind Perkins.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Someone should send this to Doc. . .

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

I know plus-minus isn't the end-all-and-be-all, but Powe is a +22 this postseason, while BBD is -26. 

Comparing Powe to BBD, with Powe on the court:

* Our effective field goal percentage is better by 7.7% (48.7% vs. 41.0%)
* Our effective field goal percentage allowed is better by 2.9% (46.2% vs. 49.1%)
* Our offensive production per 100 possessions is ridiculously better, by 20.9 points (115.1/100 vs. 94.2/100)
* Our defensive production per 100 possessions is better, by  3.8 points (106.6 vs. 110.8 )
* Our offensive rebounding jumps by 9.9 percentage points (35.1% vs. 24.3%)
* Our overall rebounding is better (we get 50.1% of overall boards, vs. 45.5%)
* We block more shots, and have a fewer percentage of our own shots blocked

The "BBD is much better on defense" dynamic doesn't play out in reality, and it didn't play out in the regular season, either.

As for House vs. Cassell, 82games.com only has a 40 minute sample for House, which isn't enough of a sample size to determine anything.  In the regular season, though, the offense was better with House over Cassell (109.3 pts/100 vs. 103.5 pts/100), as was the defense (100.3 pts/100 allowed, vs. 101.8 pts/100 allowed).

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Chris -- how can you say you don't care what the stats say?  I find that fascinating.  What is your philosophy for how to evaluate who should play?  Doesn't the data help you determine the best matchups?

It seems to me that the huge edge the data gives to Powe suggests that he should have gotten the benefit of the doubt, rather than Davis, when it came to who to pull and who to give playing time.

Additionally, why didn't Davis play himself out of minutes based on his performance Games 2-4?

Finally, the reason 10 minutes or so a game from the Davis/Powe combo is likely going to be necessary is that Perkins is too foul prone and PJ Brown simply can't play any more minutes than he already is (presuming you think we should maximize his minutes).

I only wish the "consistent bench players get consistent minutes" rationale was accurate.  If so, Cassell and BBD would be on the bench, because both have been poor more often than not.  Powe and House are the better players.

Big Baby has not been bad.  He hasn't given much on offense, but defensively and on the boards he has been solid (even when he isn't grabbing the boards, he has been blocking out very well).  And as I have gone on and on about in other threads, Powe likely wouldn't give much more offensively against the collapsing interior defense, and is a liability defensively.

I know plus-minus isn't the end-all-and-be-all, but Powe is a +22 this postseason, while BBD is -26. 

Comparing Powe to BBD, with Powe on the court:

* Our effective field goal percentage is better by 7.7% (48.7% vs. 41.0%)
* Our effective field goal percentage allowed is better by 2.9% (46.2% vs. 49.1%)
* Our offensive production per 100 possessions is ridiculously better, by 20.9 points (115.1/100 vs. 94.2/100)
* Our defensive production per 100 possessions is better, by  3.8 points (106.6 vs. 110.8 )
* Our offensive rebounding jumps by 9.9 percentage points (35.1% vs. 24.3%)
* Our overall rebounding is better (we get 50.1% of overall boards, vs. 45.5%)
* We block more shots, and have a fewer percentage of our own shots blocked

The "BBD is much better on defense" dynamic doesn't play out in reality, and it didn't play out in the regular season, either.

Sorry, that was a overgeneralization.  I meant that Powe is a defensive liability against Detroit, because they beat teams, by defeating their rotations, and rotations are where Davis has an advantage over Powe.

Davis has only played more than Powe in 6 games this postseason (out of 18).  Powe is also averaging twice as many minutes.  But Powe is just a tough matchup against Detroit.  He was given a chance in game 1, and looked lost on defense, and didn't do much of anything on offense.  In game 2, he just reinforced it by missing assignments right away.

Not to mention no one has been able to get the ball up against the Detroit interior defense, unless they are able to rise over the top (like KG), so that doesn't make it seem like Powe would be able to do much more on defense.

Detroit moves the ball until someone doesn't rotate.  Powe's biggest issue all season has been rotating, whereas Davis has been decent at it.

I don't care what the stats say, this is a bad matchup for Powe.

But honestly, I think neither of them should be playing in this series.  They should be using a 3 man big rotation with Perk, KG, and PJ.  They are the best team and interior defenders on the C's, and give them the size they need against this team.

[firedocrivers08]

this team needs antoine walker off the bench

haha i lol'd