Author Topic: How much upside does Joe have?  (Read 15180 times)

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How much upside does Joe have?
« on: March 19, 2023, 12:31:41 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Have we seen any growth from him or the team as the season has gone on?

I just don’t see a lot of coaching skills that he currently has, and I don’t see much growth.

In-game management (play calling, rotations, timeouts): very poor

Managing minutes: poor

Getting the team motivated: poor

Keeping the team accountable:  poor

Defensive philosophy:  average, but the defense has regressed

Offensive philosophy:  below average, with mediocre results.  If Joe’s offense was an nba player, it would be Antoine Walker.

Getting the team prepared for the playoffs:  TBD, but things aren’t looking good.

I look back to the coaching search when Ime was hired.  The team wanted a talented former NBA player (who was black) and held players accountable.  Somebody with a tough edge who strongly promoted defense.  Somebody who would get through to our young stars.

It seems like Joe checks one of those boxes. 


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2023, 12:46:06 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2023, 12:59:01 PM »

Offline radiohead

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It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2023, 01:03:28 PM »

Online liam

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Joe's like 12 years old he has to have a ton of upside.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2023, 01:05:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Joe's like 12 years old he has to have a ton of upside.

I don’t know man. I deal with people who don’t have much upside every day. 


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2023, 01:07:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2023, 01:11:18 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

This IS the case with every team in the NBA. If it wasn’t, Pop wouldn’t be sitting on 18 wins, the second worst record in the league. Kerr has a .500 record this year, Spolestra Is only a few games over that mark. Out of all the major sports, the coach is the least important in the NBA.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 01:26:22 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2023, 01:25:29 PM »

Offline celts55

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Since it’s hard to imagine him being worse, I guess all he has is upside

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2023, 01:32:00 PM »

Offline Larry for 3

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Zero. Not playing white in the 4th last night is indefensible. This isn’t the g league. You know Spoelstra is just licking his chops in round 1. We can’t even put our best players on the floor in game 72.  Things better change quick. You can’t just turn it on. But joe ain’t worried.
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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2023, 01:33:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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It doesn’t look promising but i’d still give him the benefit of the doubt. He was suddenly thrust into coaching this team so let’s give him that. His early season success may have been due more to the players’ talents than his coaching skills. Once the other teams got used to the Celtics’ kind of play, suddenly we weren’t such a dominant team anymore. No adjustments, just the same thing over and over. That being said, I think he deserves a full training camp before we can judge him as a coach. But man, I’d really hate to see  this season go to waste after such a promising start.

This IS the case with every team in the NBA. If it wasn’t, Pop wouldn’t be sitting on 18 wins, the second worst record in the league. Kerr has a .500 record this year, Spolestra Is only a few games over that mark. Out of all the major sports, the coach is the least important in the NBA.

Coaching matters, though.  Otherwise, we’d hire Gene Hackman, Samuel Jackson and Denzel Washington to make the occasional speech and be done with it.


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2023, 01:50:37 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Hard to say. I think his issues are more lack of experience and lack of a robust understanding and appreciation of the game than a general lack of upside. Perhaps in time those approve, but who knows.

For example, his entire strategy is essentially just a motion offense that encourages taking the first open three that arises. Fairly simple concept with an extreme strategic addition with the shot selection. That’s virtually it in its entirety; however, the team has largely stopped employing the fundamental player movement components of that philosophy after the first quarter of the season, and Joe seems like he has no idea how to fix the issue of motivate his guys to buy in and consistently play the right way. Perhaps that’s something he learns in time, or perhaps that’s more if a personality thing that he doesn’t have that someone like Ime did.

So I don’t know what to say about upside. He’s clearly not ready right now to be a NBA coach, let alone for what was the title favorite coming in. Can he eventually get there? I don’t know. But we clearly made a mistake just pushing him into this role when he clearly wasn’t ready. A team like Utah that Hardy is leading us a much better situation for a coach as green as Joe.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2023, 02:21:34 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Hard to say. I think his issues are more lack of experience and lack of a robust understanding and appreciation of the game than a general lack of upside. Perhaps in time those approve, but who knows.

For example, his entire strategy is essentially just a motion offense that encourages taking the first open three that arises. Fairly simple concept with an extreme strategic addition with the shot selection. That’s virtually it in its entirety; however, the team has largely stopped employing the fundamental player movement components of that philosophy after the first quarter of the season, and Joe seems like he has no idea how to fix the issue of motivate his guys to buy in and consistently play the right way. Perhaps that’s something he learns in time, or perhaps that’s more if a personality thing that he doesn’t have that someone like Ime did.

So I don’t know what to say about upside. He’s clearly not ready right now to be a NBA coach, let alone for what was the title favorite coming in. Can he eventually get there? I don’t know. But we clearly made a mistake just pushing him into this role when he clearly wasn’t ready. A team like Utah that Hardy is leading us a much better situation for a coach as green as Joe.

Fair point about upside.  Perhaps Joe could be a competent NBA coach in some situation that doesn't involve a hopeful NB contender.

But, I don't see progress from Joe, and this team can't live with subpar results due to on the job training with a guy who is two years away from being two years away.


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2023, 02:23:58 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t even possible this season with players regularly missing time.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2023, 02:33:25 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Guess we will find out in the playoffs. The team hasn’t looked great in the new year, but I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the fact that they are missing starters every game and the bench after Brogdon/White is mediocre at best. I don’t think the coach is the main reason the C’s are losing games.

We had a much worse bench last year though, right?

The bench depth was better last season and the 2021/22 version of Grant Williams was superior to this years as well. Ime also went with a shortened rotation which isn’t possible this season with players regularly missing time.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but what depth was better last year?

The end of our bench was Nesmith, Hauser, Fitts, Stauskas, Kornet and Morgan.  Those guys basically didn't play.

This season, we've got a worse Grant, but a better White, Hauser and Kornet.  We're added Brogdon and Muscula.

What depth was better?


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Re: How much upside does Joe have?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2023, 02:35:16 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Hard to say. I think his issues are more lack of experience and lack of a robust understanding and appreciation of the game than a general lack of upside. Perhaps in time those approve, but who knows.

For example, his entire strategy is essentially just a motion offense that encourages taking the first open three that arises. Fairly simple concept with an extreme strategic addition with the shot selection. That’s virtually it in its entirety; however, the team has largely stopped employing the fundamental player movement components of that philosophy after the first quarter of the season, and Joe seems like he has no idea how to fix the issue of motivate his guys to buy in and consistently play the right way. Perhaps that’s something he learns in time, or perhaps that’s more if a personality thing that he doesn’t have that someone like Ime did.

So I don’t know what to say about upside. He’s clearly not ready right now to be a NBA coach, let alone for what was the title favorite coming in. Can he eventually get there? I don’t know. But we clearly made a mistake just pushing him into this role when he clearly wasn’t ready. A team like Utah that Hardy is leading us a much better situation for a coach as green as Joe.

Fair point about upside.  Perhaps Joe could be a competent NBA coach in some situation that doesn't involve a hopeful NB contender.

But, I don't see progress from Joe, and this team can't live with subpar results due to on the job training with a guy who is two years away from being two years away.

Eh, I do think he’s got a bit better about his timeout calling and management of runs. At times he still does struggle with it (like last night), but if you remember at the beginning of the season he was very dogmatic and extreme and wouldn’t call a timeout for anything. He’d let a Tatum + bench lineup try to figure out a last second shot by themselves for “learning experiences”, and he’d regularly let 10+ point differential runs go without anything from him.

Of course, I think this has been balanced out by some incredibly poor rotation decisions post ASB and further evidence that his entire philosophy is bunk and obsolete when not hitting threes.