The little moves that matter...

[Roy H.]

... and which hurt in hindsight.

I was reading a Steve Bulpett mailbag this morning -- https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/mailbag-sam-hauser-sharpshooter/ -- and he answered a question about Max Strus.

In the summer of 2019, the Celtics were filling out the end of their bench and their two-way spots.  Originally, they signed Strus and Tremont Waters with their two-ways.  They then signed Tacko to a two-way deal, and elevated Strus to a spot on the roster.  The roster spot came down to Strus vs. Javonte Green, and we kept Green.

Strus then went on to sign with Chicago for a short bit, before signing in Miami for a minimum contract.  He's one of the biggest bargains in the NBA currently.

There's been some minor criticism over the years for choosing Green over Strus, but I totally understand that signing.  Green has been a capable NBA player since we initially signed him.  And, I can't fault the team for bringing in Fall.  He looked like he might be able to stick as an NBA player.  That's a legit use of the two-way.

I think the real "little move that mattered" was keeping Tremont Waters over Strus.  We passed over a player with a NBA skillset with NBA size for a guy who was 5'10", 175 pounds.  Just statistically, based upon the history of modern basketball, that's a bad gamble unless there's an exceptional skillset underlying those height concerns.  Waters never demonstrated that skill set, as he was a mediocre-to-poor shooter in college with decent but unexceptional production.

I think that in real-time, must of us shrugged our shoulders, assuming that two-way contracts aren't all that important.  But, you look at it now, and that bad gamble of course looks like a bad gamble.  One guy is in France, the other is starting for an Eastern Conference contender.

[td450]

I don't buy the logic, because in order to find a productive player like Strus has become, you don't just have to identify him, you have to play him too.

Both Strus and Javonte Green got to play 23 mpg last year. They just don't get that here. Sam Hauser is going to be a guy in this mold, and I'll be surprised if they can find 15 mpg for him.

[Goldstar88]

Danny did always love his undersized players… 

[Roy H.]

I don't buy the logic, because in order to find a productive player like Strus has become, you don't just have to identify him, you have to play him too.

Both Strus and Javonte Green got to play 23 mpg last year. They just don't get that here. Sam Hauser is going to be a guy in this mold, and I'll be surprised if they can find 15 mpg for him.

I'm not understanding your logic.  Strus might not be starting here, but he likely would have carved out a role if he'd been given a proper look.  Case in point:  the guy you cite, Hauser.  He's going to get a get a chance to prove himself.

[shake603]

I think the real "little move that mattered" was keeping Tremont Waters over Strus.  We passed over a player with a NBA skillset with NBA size for a guy who was 5'10", 175 pounds.  Just statistically, based upon the history of modern basketball, that's a bad gamble unless there's an exceptional skillset underlying those height concerns.  Waters never demonstrated that skill set, as he was a mediocre-to-poor shooter in college with decent but unexceptional production.

I think that in real-time, must of us shrugged our shoulders, assuming that two-way contracts aren't all that important.  But, you look at it now, and that bad gamble of course looks like a bad gamble.  One guy is in France, the other is starting for an Eastern Conference contender.

Strong but respectful disagree here. The real mistake was signing Tacko at all.  There was more than enough video & time on him to tell he wasn't a real nba prospect. 

I did also find the Waters selection confusing, but from a setting of the culture perspective you had to give him a two-way spot because we actually used a pick on him.  I would not have drafted him,  but he did get selected.  I still believe Tacko the bigger mistake of the two though,  because I think there's value in having a heady ball handler lead your minor league team.

I don't disagree with the core message though > Green and Strus were both great finds, it's a shame we couldn't nurture those finds better.

[Roy H.]

I think the real "little move that mattered" was keeping Tremont Waters over Strus.  We passed over a player with a NBA skillset with NBA size for a guy who was 5'10", 175 pounds.  Just statistically, based upon the history of modern basketball, that's a bad gamble unless there's an exceptional skillset underlying those height concerns.  Waters never demonstrated that skill set, as he was a mediocre-to-poor shooter in college with decent but unexceptional production.

I think that in real-time, must of us shrugged our shoulders, assuming that two-way contracts aren't all that important.  But, you look at it now, and that bad gamble of course looks like a bad gamble.  One guy is in France, the other is starting for an Eastern Conference contender.

Strong but respectful disagree here. The real mistake was signing Tacko at all.  There was more than enough video & time on him to tell he wasn't a real nba prospect. 

I did also find the Waters selection confusing, but from a setting of the culture perspective you had to give him a two-way spot because we actually used a pick on him.  I would not have drafted him,  but he did get selected.  I still believe Tacko the bigger mistake of the two though,  because I think there's value in having a heady ball handler lead your minor league team.

I don't disagree with the core message though > Green and Strus were both great finds, it's a shame we couldn't nurture those finds better.

I appreciate respectful disagreement.

With Tacko, it's probably my own poor talent evaluation, but I thought he had enough height + mobility to stick as a low-end backup / high-end third string center.  I thought he could be a credible presence as a shot-blocker, maybe a modern-day Mark Eaton in limited minutes.  But, yes, if we'd stuck with Green and Strus on the roster (Strus on a two-way) we'd have been in better shape.

And don't get me started on Carsen Edwards.

[td450]

I don't buy the logic, because in order to find a productive player like Strus has become, you don't just have to identify him, you have to play him too.

Both Strus and Javonte Green got to play 23 mpg last year. They just don't get that here. Sam Hauser is going to be a guy in this mold, and I'll be surprised if they can find 15 mpg for him.

I'm not understanding your logic.  Strus might not be starting here, but he likely would have carved out a role if he'd been given a proper look.  Case in point:  the guy you cite, Hauser.  He's going to get a get a chance to prove himself.

Seems like you do get it.

"Strus might not be starting here, but he likely would have carved out a role if he'd been given a proper look."

Look at the roster back then. Brown, Smart, Hayward, Grant Williams and Langford. Where were the minutes? Waters got 11 games at 10 mpg behind Kemba and Wanamaker.

You have to have space to give these guys for them to become anything. Hauser will probably get 10-15 mpg tops if all goes well because there is a bit of a space in this particular roster construction for a small forward who can score. I hope that's enough for him to prove himself.

[Moranis]

Fall was the mistake.  Green and Strus both played solid mpg and games last year, while Fall did not.

[Roy H.]

Fall was the mistake.  Green and Strus both played solid mpg and games last year, while Fall did not.

Yeah, but neither did Waters.

[droopdog7]

At the time, the fan base was screaming for green (as I recall).  And yes, while strus MAY be better than green, you don't look at that as a terrible decision.  In terms of Waters, he earned that spot.  Can't hate on it in hindsight.

As for little moves, we look to have our Strus anyway now in Hauser.  So I'm not sweating it in the least.

[liam]

At the time, the fan base was screaming for green (as I recall).  And yes, while strus MAY be better than green, you don't look at that as a terrible decision.  In terms of Waters, he earned that spot.  Can't hate on it in hindsight.

As for little moves, we look to have our Strus anyway now in Hauser.  So I'm not sweating it in the least.

I'm always rooting for shooting.

[bdm860]

Here's what was said about Tremont Waters during his first two-way contract (via Keith Smith):

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701124796417

One last name that came up repeatedly talking to front office executives and scouts about the G-League Showcase: Tremont Waters. Water is on a Two-Way with Boston.

"He's an NBA backup PG right now. I told our GM to trade for him, because he's better than what we have today."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701837873152

More on Tremont Waters from another front office executive: "We'd ask, but Boston wouldn't listen. Why would they? Kid can really play. He's small, but smart. Quick enough to get his shot off. He's a playmaker. He'll be on a standard contract next year, if not later this year."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125702605426691

Lastly on Tremont Waters from a scout: "I missed on him. Big time. Thought was too small for our league. But he's tough and fast. I don't know what he'll be beyond it, but he's an NBA backup point guard at least. And that's valuable because everyone plays three PGs a night now."

So people around the league seemed high on him.  Maybe Danny was thinking he'd at least be a tradable asset.  But looking back now, it looks like at least 2 execs and a scout with questionable player evaluation skills.

[droopdog7]

Here's what was said about Tremont Waters during his first two-way contract (via Keith Smith):

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701124796417

One last name that came up repeatedly talking to front office executives and scouts about the G-League Showcase: Tremont Waters. Water is on a Two-Way with Boston.

"He's an NBA backup PG right now. I told our GM to trade for him, because he's better than what we have today."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701837873152

More on Tremont Waters from another front office executive: "We'd ask, but Boston wouldn't listen. Why would they? Kid can really play. He's small, but smart. Quick enough to get his shot off. He's a playmaker. He'll be on a standard contract next year, if not later this year."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125702605426691

Lastly on Tremont Waters from a scout: "I missed on him. Big time. Thought was too small for our league. But he's tough and fast. I don't know what he'll be beyond it, but he's an NBA backup point guard at least. And that's valuable because everyone plays three PGs a night now."

So people around the league seemed high on him.  Maybe Danny was thinking he'd at least be a tradable asset.  But looking back now, it looks like at least 2 execs and a scout with questionable player evaluation skills.

I actually think waters got a bit of a raw deal, but size was always going to be an issue.  But he absolutely could play.

[Roy H.]

Here's what was said about Tremont Waters during his first two-way contract (via Keith Smith):

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701124796417

One last name that came up repeatedly talking to front office executives and scouts about the G-League Showcase: Tremont Waters. Water is on a Two-Way with Boston.

"He's an NBA backup PG right now. I told our GM to trade for him, because he's better than what we have today."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701837873152

More on Tremont Waters from another front office executive: "We'd ask, but Boston wouldn't listen. Why would they? Kid can really play. He's small, but smart. Quick enough to get his shot off. He's a playmaker. He'll be on a standard contract next year, if not later this year."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125702605426691

Lastly on Tremont Waters from a scout: "I missed on him. Big time. Thought was too small for our league. But he's tough and fast. I don't know what he'll be beyond it, but he's an NBA backup point guard at least. And that's valuable because everyone plays three PGs a night now."

So people around the league seemed high on him.  Maybe Danny was thinking he'd at least be a tradable asset.  But looking back now, it looks like at least 2 execs and a scout with questionable player evaluation skills.

I actually think waters got a bit of a raw deal, but size was always going to be an issue.  But he absolutely could play.

Not at an NBA level.

And, I think that Keith Smith has a very broad definition of what he considers to be an NBA executive.

[shake603]

Here's what was said about Tremont Waters during his first two-way contract (via Keith Smith):

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701124796417

One last name that came up repeatedly talking to front office executives and scouts about the G-League Showcase: Tremont Waters. Water is on a Two-Way with Boston.

"He's an NBA backup PG right now. I told our GM to trade for him, because he's better than what we have today."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125701837873152

More on Tremont Waters from another front office executive: "We'd ask, but Boston wouldn't listen. Why would they? Kid can really play. He's small, but smart. Quick enough to get his shot off. He's a playmaker. He'll be on a standard contract next year, if not later this year."

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1209125702605426691

Lastly on Tremont Waters from a scout: "I missed on him. Big time. Thought was too small for our league. But he's tough and fast. I don't know what he'll be beyond it, but he's an NBA backup point guard at least. And that's valuable because everyone plays three PGs a night now."

So people around the league seemed high on him.  Maybe Danny was thinking he'd at least be a tradable asset.  But looking back now, it looks like at least 2 execs and a scout with questionable player evaluation skills.

From day 1 Tremont we destined to be the best Third String point guard on decent regular season team.  I don't think he had any outcomes where he'd play meaningful playoff basketball. There's a place for specific value picks,  but Tremont has an exposable flaw that can't be fixed.  It's weird teams/ front offices/ scouts can't get their arms around that yet.