Could / should the Celtics operate out of the post more next year?

[Roy H.]

Entering the new year, they were eighth in the league with 7.3 post-ups per game, per NBA Stats. That number dropped to 5.2 over the final 46 games, 21st in the league. In the playoffs, it plummeted to 3.6 post-ups per game, with only Rudy Gobert’s Utah Jazz behind them. There were nine of them alone in that New Year’s Eve win over the Suns.

Udoka had to get away from the post-up because he was using the wrong personnel. Tatum came into the season with a newfound thirst for physicality, looking to evolve into the level of star who commands double-teams so he can find open shooters. The logic was that Tatum was now strong enough to post up against bigger players and tall enough to pass over the top when the double comes. He built his game in the mid-post coming into the league and had a series of fadeaways and spin moves to make him a viable scorer from there. Now that his passing vision was taking that next step, it seemed logical to put him in the post and let him go to work.

But it was apparent early on that defenses were better prepared for him on the block and able to shove him around to the point he couldn’t get his position and struggled to gain any leverage. There were too many possessions for him, Brown and Smart where they posted up like-sized defenders and saw the clock dwindle as they tried to get a rhythm handling the ball on a back-down.

The offense would grind to a halt.  ...

But as Udoka’s staff looks for ways to reduce the offensive load off its stars and bring more variety to the offense, the high post could become a hot spot for the supporting cast. Williams already is a plus offensive player with his off-ball paint presence, but there is another leap to unlock with him on the ball. His playmaking can be harnessed for more than just quick passes on the roll or diving for loose balls. That Phoenix game showed there is immense potential in having him face the basket with space and letting him read the floor to find cutters.

Al Horford had success playmaking attacking closeouts, but most of his post touches came on the low block. Grant Williams flashed his passing vision from the low post at Tennessee and brought that to his upfake-and-drive game from the corners last year. If he can get some finishing moves into his bag this season, that can open him up to become a high-post passer, as well. Then there’s Danilo Gallinari, whose offense is built out from the high post.

The Celtics eventually found a spread-out drive-and-kick scheme to play off their stars that pushed them to the NBA Finals last season. That’s the ideal modern offense for a team built around two star wings, but any one-dimensional system has its limits. Variety was the key word Udoka used throughout the playoff run, and he’s going to use his first training camp as an incumbent coach to bake more of that in.

https://theathletic.com/3493613/2022/08/10/celtics-robert-williams-training-camp/

[Big333223]

I'm reminded of the opening minutes of Game 6. They went to a couple of post ups and ran up a lead on GS. Then they got away from it and GS took over.

I think this team probably learned a lot in the Finals. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they start posting up more with shooters everywhere else on the floor.

[Moranis]

I don't know if they really have the people to do it.  I don't think it is a coincidence that when they went away from posting up, they started to win a lot more.

[hpantazo]

I've always wanted to see Tatum catch the ball more often in the post. He's got a great post-up game. Smart is also very effective posting up other guards. Al however has been hit or miss in the post in his return to Boston, and Rob and Grant have virtually no post-up game to speak of.

[SparzWizard]

They should, but they gotta also polish up that offensive philosophy...cut down with the "win by the 3 die by the 3" mentality. When the 3's aren't falling? They get killed.

Play in the post is how you'd beat teams like Giannis, the Heat, and the Warriors, etc

[Erik]

Long post, but worth a read.

Every strategy should be on the table given the matchup or even lineup.

For example, it was painfully obvious that Al Horford was unguardable in the post vs the small-ball GSW lineup. Every time they ran it, it was an easy shot for someone due to the size difference.
I'm sorry, but at a championship level, just running the same handful of plays every time isn't going to cut it. Ime is an excellent people leader... but he was thoroughly outclassed by Steve Kerr and every other coach he faced on the X's and O's. We were a Butler heave away from losing to the Heat and they're not on our level at all. We have a team with 2 DPOY candidates, 1 MVP dark horse, along with a likely annual top 20 / allstar. It was embarrassing.

Each team had a big weakness that was shown to Ime multiple times throughout the series and he didn't capitalize on it. The GSW one was particularly painful because it's so obvious. You don't roll out 2 big men with mobility issues (Rob Williams' injury & Horford's Age) against mobile shooters if you are not going to pound them in the paint on the other end.

If your opponents are going to run around and chuck 40+ 3 pointers a game, you slow the game down and backup Horford into Curry. One of 3 things will almost always happen:
1) Horford is going to draw a foul on an elite scorer.
2) Horford is going to get a high quality <8ft shot or dunk.
3) Horford is going to draw a double team for a chance to find an open 3 or worst case run THEM around for a bit.

Either way, you limit the time that the ball is in their hands, limit transition points because close to rim misses are harder to run than long ranged misses; You just have more space that you have to cover, less momentum, and less time to plan/react. And then you just throw it in to Horford, have him back Curry up for the full 5 seconds he legally can while waiting for a mistake.. if not just make a play himself.

Instead, we did more of the same. Solo penetration into a box in the paint. Every team gave us the Giannis wall, and we kept contently running into the wall... and we still made it to the finals. Let that digest.

I am almost positive that we would have scored more points on average if instead of those handful of plays, Tatum just takes a high screen (near half court) onto a subpar defender (they had a lot), does a quick 1 on 1 move against the new defender, and just takes whatever 3 he gets or kicks it to someone else on a double. I really don't see why we had to overcomplicate it past that. We were shooting 40% from 3.

What every team leadership (and any leadership structure really) needs are at minimum two people: First, a person who can gain the respect of the team in one way or another... someone that they trust and can inspire them to perform well. That is the people leader. The other is the brains. That's the one that sees the game like the matrix. Put him anywhere in the org, but listen carefully. Sometimes you're fortunate enough to have that one person capable of doing both... Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich and Erik Spoelstra are recent examples off the top of my head. Brad was a brains guy but he didn't command the respect of the team and there wasn't anyone else who could fill that role.

I'm a bit concerned that Ime kept getting dunked on by opposing coaches and it didn't get fixed. It feels like he isn't listening to the good advice that he should be by someone somewhere. Like how can anyone explain him seeing the Horford low post on Curry being hugely successful once each game, and then never running it again that game. I think that analysts and oddsmakers are counting on either Ime showing growth here next year, or someone else taking over the strategic decisions next year.... because that was humiliating for everyone. From my estimation, we played about 3-4 additional games that we shouldn't have had to due to his coaching. Maybe Brad should hire a few people to offload some of his work and spend some more time injecting the strategy into the team. Knowing him, he probably decided against it to avoid friction

[#1P4P]

The team has to have bread and butter plays. There has to be easily accessible and repeatable plays that the team relies on when the offense stagnates.

This team relied too heavily on JT mismatches, once the Warriors denied it by keeping Wiggins on Tatum and JT not having the moves to shake him with/out the ball, the offense stagnated. Under Udoka, the offense did a great job of creating and taking advantage of JT’s mismatches. The Warriors put a stop to that by not switching on him and having the defense and personnel capable to pull it off.

In the playoffs, those moves become less reliable (better defense plus fatigue) and it’s your best plays against ours and/or who out hustles the other.

[tenn_smoothie]

Yes.

Just moving the ball around the perimeter between guys standing at the 3-point line does not work.
Just relying on Tatum or Brown to break down the defense with their dribbling bag-of-tricks does not work either.
The more predictable and stagnant the offense becomes - especially in the playoffs - the harder it is to create good shots.

Ime needs help with his offense, from possibly an assistant with lots of offensive knowledge.
The ball needs to move inside to outside to inside and off-ball players need to be moving and screening to open up the floor.
All of these offensive options can work unless you only play one way all the time, which is what Ime did last season.
Our offense in the finals was one-dimensional with very little movement or variety.
Golden State set their defense accordingly and clogged the half-court to the point where the Celts had nowhere to go with the ball.

[Bobshot]

Yes.

Just moving the ball around the perimeter between guys standing at the 3-point line does not work.
Just relying on Tatum or Brown to break down the defense with their dribbling bag-of-tricks does not work either.
The more predictable and stagnant the offense becomes - especially in the playoffs - the harder it is to create good shots.

Ime needs help with his offense, from possibly an assistant with lots of offensive knowledge.
The ball needs to move inside to outside to inside and off-ball players need to be moving and screening to open up the floor.
All of these offensive options can work unless you only play one way all the time, which is what Ime did last season.
Our offense in the finals was one-dimensional with very little movement or variety.
Golden State set their defense accordingly and clogged the half-court to the point where the Celts had nowhere to go with the ball.

Pass for the best shot. Pure and simple. The Auerbach way.
And use the fast break in the transition game. It's about getting easy shots.
Get the rebound, and pass the ball upcourt quickly. Russell excelled in that.

The perimeter stuff is useless, unless you have a guy like Curry  who can shoot 3s blindfolded.

[dannyboy35]

Long post, but worth a read.

Every strategy should be on the table given the matchup or even lineup.

For example, it was painfully obvious that Al Horford was unguardable in the post vs the small-ball GSW lineup. Every time they ran it, it was an easy shot for someone due to the size difference.
I'm sorry, but at a championship level, just running the same handful of plays every time isn't going to cut it. Ime is an excellent people leader... but he was thoroughly outclassed by Steve Kerr and every other coach he faced on the X's and O's. We were a Butler heave away from losing to the Heat and they're not on our level at all. We have a team with 2 DPOY candidates, 1 MVP dark horse, along with a likely annual top 20 / allstar. It was embarrassing.

Each team had a big weakness that was shown to Ime multiple times throughout the series and he didn't capitalize on it. The GSW one was particularly painful because it's so obvious. You don't roll out 2 big men with mobility issues (Rob Williams' injury & Horford's Age) against mobile shooters if you are not going to pound them in the paint on the other end.

If your opponents are going to run around and chuck 40+ 3 pointers a game, you slow the game down and backup Horford into Curry. One of 3 things will almost always happen:
1) Horford is going to draw a foul on an elite scorer.
2) Horford is going to get a high quality <8ft shot or dunk.
3) Horford is going to draw a double team for a chance to find an open 3 or worst case run THEM around for a bit.

Either way, you limit the time that the ball is in their hands, limit transition points because close to rim misses are harder to run than long ranged misses; You just have more space that you have to cover, less momentum, and less time to plan/react. And then you just throw it in to Horford, have him back Curry up for the full 5 seconds he legally can while waiting for a mistake.. if not just make a play himself.

Instead, we did more of the same. Solo penetration into a box in the paint. Every team gave us the Giannis wall, and we kept contently running into the wall... and we still made it to the finals. Let that digest.

I am almost positive that we would have scored more points on average if instead of those handful of plays, Tatum just takes a high screen (near half court) onto a subpar defender (they had a lot), does a quick 1 on 1 move against the new defender, and just takes whatever 3 he gets or kicks it to someone else on a double. I really don't see why we had to overcomplicate it past that. We were shooting 40% from 3.

What every team leadership (and any leadership structure really) needs are at minimum two people: First, a person who can gain the respect of the team in one way or another... someone that they trust and can inspire them to perform well. That is the people leader. The other is the brains. That's the one that sees the game like the matrix. Put him anywhere in the org, but listen carefully. Sometimes you're fortunate enough to have that one person capable of doing both... Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich and Erik Spoelstra are recent examples off the top of my head. Brad was a brains guy but he didn't command the respect of the team and there wasn't anyone else who could fill that role.

I'm a bit concerned that Ime kept getting dunked on by opposing coaches and it didn't get fixed. It feels like he isn't listening to the good advice that he should be by someone somewhere. Like how can anyone explain him seeing the Horford low post on Curry being hugely successful once each game, and then never running it again that game. I think that analysts and oddsmakers are counting on either Ime showing growth here next year, or someone else taking over the strategic decisions next year.... because that was humiliating for everyone. From my estimation, we played about 3-4 additional games that we shouldn't have had to due to his coaching. Maybe Brad should hire a few people to offload some of his work and spend some more time injecting the strategy into the team. Knowing him, he probably decided against it to avoid friction

    Great post. This makes me think how Stevens didn’t tell or couldn’t communicate to the Celtics to simply go to the feee throw line to beat the Miami Heat zone when we were in the bubble.
  We lost a chance to defend our lead in titles vs the Lakers because of that . There was also Brad letting challenges more than once just go to waste. It’s like he choked along with the players. This felt exactly the same with us not even attempting to  punish them inside.
   

[td450]

A major component of good low post play is the ability to make a well placed pass at the right moment. Tatum is pretty bad at feeding the post and Smart is below average. Neither guy is an opportunistic passer. They both pass at particular points when they are attacking the defense. If you are open before then, too bad for you. Hopefully Brogdon will help.

Tatum hasn't been great posting up yet. It seems like he should be given his skills. With some work, he probably could be quite good.

Brown is very good at pinning smaller players down low during transition, and he usually converts when he gets the ball. He has the physical tools and a soft touch. He could probably add a bucket or two a night if he worked all summer on his pivoting skills, which are below average, but he's pretty good down there already.

Grant Williams also has some skills here, and just started to show them last year at the pro level. He could take another step, especially when he is playing against rotation bigs instead of starters.

So yes, the C's should do more as those three continue to evolve

[pokeKingCurtis]

They went to the post a lot at the start of preseason last year

But I assume they just had so many bad habits to get rid of, that they just scrapped this during the season

[Big333223]

I've always wanted to see Tatum catch the ball more often in the post. He's got a great post-up game. Smart is also very effective posting up other guards. Al however has been hit or miss in the post in his return to Boston, and Rob and Grant have virtually no post-up game to speak of.

Yep. I'd much rather see Tatum operating out of the high post than dribbling for 10 seconds at a time on the perimeter.

Let Tatum work his man in the post as a first option, if the double comes, he can pass out of it and get moving and maybe get it back somewhere else if his pass doesn't get someone else a good shot.

Jaylen can operate out of the post more too. He doesn't have Tatum's footwork but his quickness and strength are a huge problem for defenses and he's automatic from inside ten feet.

[BitterJim]

Yes, but I'd like to see it combined with more movement on the perimeter (of course, I'd just like to see more movement on the perimeter in general so take that with a grain of salt). Spreading the floor and posting up is great, but without an elite postup guy we need to make sure we get more passing opportunities when the defense stays in single coverage.

There have been too many plays where someone tries to post up and ends up making no progress, but then is forced into a bad shot or bad pass because everyone else is just standing and watching (or cheating toward passing lanes if you're the defense). A bit of off ball movement and screening could open someone up on the perimeter and let us turn failed post ups into open threes and driving lanes, and we have a deeper bench this year to help deal with the fatigue that could come with it.

TLDR: Please just move off ball more. Please.

[jambr380]

I've always wanted to see Tatum catch the ball more often in the post. He's got a great post-up game. Smart is also very effective posting up other guards. Al however has been hit or miss in the post in his return to Boston, and Rob and Grant have virtually no post-up game to speak of.

Yep. I'd much rather see Tatum operating out of the high post than dribbling for 10 seconds at a time on the perimeter.

Let Tatum work his man in the post as a first option, if the double comes, he can pass out of it and get moving and maybe get it back somewhere else if his pass doesn't get someone else a good shot.

Jaylen can operate out of the post more too. He doesn't have Tatum's footwork but his quickness and strength are a huge problem for defenses and he's automatic from inside ten feet.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the high post in general as it allows a lot more options than pinning the ball down into the low post. Unless you have a Shaq or Dwight level dominant force down low, I always prefer high post. This is especially true with Tatum since his lower body strength doesn't match his upper body and he is better equipped to go off of one foot when he does make a move. I don't need to see Tatum try to power up through defenders from a standstill off of two feet down low, but then flail and fall backwards in the process.