NBA Off Season 2022

[Moranis]

well looks like OKC will surpass the Sixers tank job now and no one bats an eye about it.  How the times have changed?

LOL.

Lol yeah this is my reaction too. Guess the pitchforks should come out cause a guy had a freak injury.

How dare Chet Holmgren get injured and OKC becomes a lottery team again!

It’s very funny. Philly drafted players that were already injured and sat  simmons, noel and Embid out their entire rookie season. This is clearly a different thing than drafting a healthy guy that gets hurt in a pro am. People still with an axe to grind about the process are honestly pretty weird at this point imo. It’s been close to a decade since that started and they never made it out of the second round. It’s clearly not some amazing thing that happened and looking back at that process thread now is just flat out embarrassing for some posters here with okafor in China, saric a fringe nba player and Noel a second or third string center. Some people just get emotionally invested I guess and stop being objective.

Yeah, for all of Philly's draft picks, they hit one grand slam, and have an old Harden.  Maxey is a very nice player, but he wasn't part of the "process".

It's interesting to think that they could have Embiid, Ingram and Tatum right now.  Does that validate the process, because those players were available, or undercut it because draft evaluators are imperfect?

Simmons is far more decorated than Ingram.  Has the All NBA 3rd team, the two 1st team Defense, more all star games (3 to 1), finished 2nd and 4th in DPOY voting, and even got some MVP votes in a season.  He left Philly badly and has now missed 2 full seasons (1 for injury, 1 for mental health), but Ingram isn't on the team that drafted him either. 

But that was the entire point of a multi-year tank i.e. the draft is a crap shoot and you need to maximize your chance of landing the elite players. 


Also, for the record the Thunder did not sign a single free agent this summer and the one veteran they acquired in the draft day trade i.e. JaMychal Green they waived (they got a 1st to take him on).  They weren't acting like a team that was trying to win before Holmgren got injured.  They were clearly going to tank this season regardless, Holmgren's injury just gives them a better excuse to do so.  Remember this was a team that prior to the start of last season that the entire team had played less combined minutes than Lebron James had and that included Favors and Muscala.  They still have 10 players that are in their 1st or 2nd year and Muscala and Favors are still the only players with 5 or more years experience.  They are not a team trying to win games and given that in each of the last two seasons they have completely shut down anyone that was "good" the latter part of the season, they are now entering their 3rd year of blatant tanking, which puts them directly in the Sixers Process category of tanking.  Also, not sure why Simmons is being brought up in the same vein as Noel and Embiid, because Simmons wasn't hurt when he was drafted and was in fact hurt in a Sixers practice at the end of September when he broke his foot (sounds like a pretty similar injury to Holmgren).

What difference do Simmons' accolades make?  He's not on the team, he folded in the playoffs, he missed multiple seasons due to injury or holdout, and he clashed with teammates and coaches.  That's not proof of the success of the process.  Ingram -- or Brown, who wasn't seriously considered by anybody to be a top-2 pick at the time -- would have been better picks for Philly.

Regardless, I don't think anybody other than you is buying into your "OKC is the same as Philly" argument.  And, I don't think any of understand how Holgrem's injury is in any way relevant here.  Bad luck isn't the same as the Philly experiment.

I think Simmons is better than Ingram and has had a better career so I have a hard time saying Ingram would have been a better pick, especially since Ingram is no longer on the team that drafted him.

As for the rest, I laid it out in my prior post.  OKC did exactly the same thing Philly did.  There is no functional difference other than it is Presti vs. Hinkie.  The type of moves and roster construction are nearly identical.  It also yet to be seen how many quality players the Thunder actually pull late when Hinkie did quite well with guys like Covington, Grant, Wood, McConnell, etc.  To this point, Dort has really been it for the Thunder (Roby has been ok, but not really any different than guys like Glenn Robinson, JaKarr Sampson, etc. - Roby needs to do it on a 2nd team or longer to be considered a good find). 

[Moranis]

I’m not even convinced the thunder would have been terrible this year if Chet didn’t get hurt and was an effective rookie (like Mobley was last year). Giddey, SGA, Dort and Chet is a pretty good core and further along than what is happening in Houston or San Antonio. I’m not saying they would have been playoff bound, the west will be better this year than last year when there were just loads of bad teams like the blazers, lakers and pelicans who should all be better this year (along with the clippers and denver). I’m still not getting the concept that a rookie getting a freak injury has anything to do with tanking. It’s acting like presti broke his foot with his bare hands. Just very strange

They signed ZERO free agents and have 10 players in their 1st or 2nd year.  They had a lot of draft picks and used them all. They were tanking from the start.  Holmgren's injury just gives them an excuse, but that was not a team that was making moves like it was trying to win. 

[celticsclay]

well looks like OKC will surpass the Sixers tank job now and no one bats an eye about it.  How the times have changed?

LOL.

Lol yeah this is my reaction too. Guess the pitchforks should come out cause a guy had a freak injury.

How dare Chet Holmgren get injured and OKC becomes a lottery team again!

It’s very funny. Philly drafted players that were already injured and sat  simmons, noel and Embid out their entire rookie season. This is clearly a different thing than drafting a healthy guy that gets hurt in a pro am. People still with an axe to grind about the process are honestly pretty weird at this point imo. It’s been close to a decade since that started and they never made it out of the second round. It’s clearly not some amazing thing that happened and looking back at that process thread now is just flat out embarrassing for some posters here with okafor in China, saric a fringe nba player and Noel a second or third string center. Some people just get emotionally invested I guess and stop being objective.

Yeah, for all of Philly's draft picks, they hit one grand slam, and have an old Harden.  Maxey is a very nice player, but he wasn't part of the "process".

It's interesting to think that they could have Embiid, Ingram and Tatum right now.  Does that validate the process, because those players were available, or undercut it because draft evaluators are imperfect?

Simmons is far more decorated than Ingram.  Has the All NBA 3rd team, the two 1st team Defense, more all star games (3 to 1), finished 2nd and 4th in DPOY voting, and even got some MVP votes in a season.  He left Philly badly and has now missed 2 full seasons (1 for injury, 1 for mental health), but Ingram isn't on the team that drafted him either. 

But that was the entire point of a multi-year tank i.e. the draft is a crap shoot and you need to maximize your chance of landing the elite players. 


Also, for the record the Thunder did not sign a single free agent this summer and the one veteran they acquired in the draft day trade i.e. JaMychal Green they waived (they got a 1st to take him on).  They weren't acting like a team that was trying to win before Holmgren got injured.  They were clearly going to tank this season regardless, Holmgren's injury just gives them a better excuse to do so.  Remember this was a team that prior to the start of last season that the entire team had played less combined minutes than Lebron James had and that included Favors and Muscala.  They still have 10 players that are in their 1st or 2nd year and Muscala and Favors are still the only players with 5 or more years experience.  They are not a team trying to win games and given that in each of the last two seasons they have completely shut down anyone that was "good" the latter part of the season, they are now entering their 3rd year of blatant tanking, which puts them directly in the Sixers Process category of tanking.  Also, not sure why Simmons is being brought up in the same vein as Noel and Embiid, because Simmons wasn't hurt when he was drafted and was in fact hurt in a Sixers practice at the end of September when he broke his foot (sounds like a pretty similar injury to Holmgren).

What difference do Simmons' accolades make?  He's not on the team, he folded in the playoffs, he missed multiple seasons due to injury or holdout, and he clashed with teammates and coaches.  That's not proof of the success of the process.  Ingram -- or Brown, who wasn't seriously considered by anybody to be a top-2 pick at the time -- would have been better picks for Philly.

Regardless, I don't think anybody other than you is buying into your "OKC is the same as Philly" argument.  And, I don't think any of understand how Holgrem's injury is in any way relevant here.  Bad luck isn't the same as the Philly experiment.

I think Simmons is better than Ingram and has had a better career so I have a hard time saying Ingram would have been a better pick, especially since Ingram is no longer on the team that drafted him.

As for the rest, I laid it out in my prior post.  OKC did exactly the same thing Philly did.  There is no functional difference other than it is Presti vs. Hinkie.  The type of moves and roster construction are nearly identical.  It also yet to be seen how many quality players the Thunder actually pull late when Hinkie did quite well with guys like Covington, Grant, Wood, McConnell, etc.  To this point, Dort has really been it for the Thunder (Roby has been ok, but not really any different than guys like Glenn Robinson, JaKarr Sampson, etc. - Roby needs to do it on a 2nd team or longer to be considered a good find).

Mo this is bizarre. If the nets called New Orleans and offered simmons for Ingram New Orleans would hang up in like half a second. Also it’s not like the lakers gave up on Ingram he was the centerpiece of a deal that got them a top ten player in the league. There is no way simmons goes above Ingram in a redraft so this is an absolutely insane argument.

[Kernewek]

The Process was always overblown in large part because of how open the Sixers were about it.  But teams have been tanking for multiple seasons for years, heck the Sonics/Thunder did it basically starting with the Ray Allen trade for about the same time as the Sixers Process.  The Thunder are doing it again.  Houston is doing it now as well.  Dallas started a 10 year playoff drought with 4 seasons of 28, 22,11, and 13 wins.  Then they won 36 only to go 26, 24, 20, and 19 before finally hitting 40 and making the playoffs at 53 (when Dirk started to come into his own).

Yes, but you've hit on the key difference - that Hinkie staked his reputation on The Process in a 'smartest guy in the room' fashion.

In actuality, as you've said, there wasn't anything exceptional about what he was doing except for being actively anti-competitive and vocal about it.

There's real damage to the NBA brand (as well as the NBA-level players on the 76ers at the time) when you're actively discussing why turning your team into the Washington Generals is actually very BigBrain.

Having a great young player go down with injury isn't really the same thing as Hinkie pulling a con on people to make them think he's of above-average ability as a GM.

Except this is the 3rd year of blatant tanking by the Thunder.  They benched healthy players in each of the last 2 seasons.  They've signed no free agents.  They've sold off veterans for draft picks.  The Thunder have in fact done exactly the same thing the Sixers did.  But it is Presti so it is overlooked.  I mean look at all of the moves in the 2020 offseason (which was November 2020 because of covid).  It is one trade after another of selling off veterans for draft picks and TPE's. The only free agent the Thunder signed that off season was Moses Brown.  The sell off continued through the deadline of that season.  The 2021 off season they continued the same practice, picking up a 1st for taking on Favors and picking up a 1st in the Horford/Walker swap (then buying out Kemba).  The only non-rookie they added was claiming Mamadi Diakite off of waivers from the Bucks (who was off the team in January).  This summer they signed no free agents.

So in the last 3 off seasons the only non-rookies that were signed by the Thunder were Moses Brown and Mamadi Diakite.  They have completely remade the roster building around SGA, a few high draft picks, but mostly 2nd round picks and undrafted players.  You know exactly what the Sixers did.

Sure, I can agree with most of that - the fact remains that Presti refusing to walk around saying "gosh, look at what a smart lad I am" is exactly the difference as it relates to your original point, that OKC is doing what Philadelphia is doing and receiving no flack for it.

[bdm860]

They signed ZERO free agents and have 10 players in their 1st or 2nd year.  They had a lot of draft picks and used them all. They were tanking from the start.  Holmgren's injury just gives them an excuse, but that was not a team that was making moves like it was trying to win.

Maybe this is part of the issue, but I think I've long disagreed with your definition of tanking.  To me, it seems like you label any bad season as tanking.  Or any team not making short term moves to improve their current season win total as tanking.  To me, that's not tanking.  OKC not signing free agents isn't a sign of tanking.  OKC trading veterans for youth/picks isn't necessarily tanking.  OKC sitting Al Horford, now that's tanking.

The way I see it, tanking is purposely being bad for the sole purpose of improving your draft position.

Rebuilding is focusing on being good 2-5 years in the future, while not worrying about your current win total.

They're similar, and often overlap, but different.

Celtics in '97 tanking.  Celtics in '07 tanking, Celtics in '14 rebuilding.

OKC in '21 rebuilding that turned to tanking.

HOU in '21 rebuilding.

ORL without taking a deeper look at their moves, would probably classify them as rebuilding the majority of the time since Dwight Howard left, rather than tanking.

[Moranis]

They signed ZERO free agents and have 10 players in their 1st or 2nd year.  They had a lot of draft picks and used them all. They were tanking from the start.  Holmgren's injury just gives them an excuse, but that was not a team that was making moves like it was trying to win.

Maybe this is part of the issue, but I think I've long disagreed with your definition of tanking.  To me, it seems like you label any bad season as tanking.  Or any team not making short term moves to improve their current season win total as tanking.  To me, that's not tanking.  OKC not signing free agents isn't a sign of tanking.  OKC trading veterans for youth/picks isn't necessarily tanking.  OKC sitting Al Horford, now that's tanking.

The way I see it, tanking is purposely being bad for the sole purpose of improving your draft position.

Rebuilding is focusing on being good 2-5 years in the future, while not worrying about your current win total.

They're similar, and often overlap, but different.

Celtics in '97 tanking.  Celtics in '07 tanking, Celtics in '14 rebuilding.

OKC in '21 rebuilding that turned to tanking.

HOU in '21 rebuilding.

ORL without taking a deeper look at their moves, would probably classify them as rebuilding the majority of the time since Dwight Howard left, rather than tanking.

I don't think a bad season is tanking, but the Thunder are absolutely tanking.  They've told healthy players to not show up in each of the last 2 seasons.  They've signed 0 free agents.  They haven't completely used cap space or any of the exceptions in each of the last 3 off seasons.  They have basically 2 veterans on the team.  They are intentionally losing games based on the moves they are making.  The Thunder are tanking. 

On the other side, I don't think Detroit is tanking even though they made a tanking type trade with Grant.  They have veterans on the team.  They have just 4 players (and a TW) that are 1st or 2nd year players, and 3 of those 4 were lottery picks (the Thunder have 9 and a TW in their rookie or 2nd year).  They Pistons have used some exceptions to sign players.  They are definitely rebuilding though and aren't anywhere near a playoff team.

Houston could go either way.  I mean they waived Wall (after telling him not to show up last year) and then dumped Wood.  They have a lot of 1st and 2nd year players and few veterans, and they haven't been making free agency related moves.  Certainly not as blatant as the Thunder, but not terribly difficult to argue they are tanking either. 

So in sum, bad doesn't mean tanking, but the Thunder are tanking and have been for 3 seasons. 

[nickagneta]

Huge difference between OKC and Philly: the endgame. Presti is going to tank with the goal of someday winning a title. All Hinkie and Philly wanted to do was win 50 games in a season, this per the many defenders of the Process that stated as such on this site.

[celticsclay]

Also, the 76ers have been this middling first or second year round out for quite a while now. It’s remarkably unremarkable. I don’t get why defenders of it would want to bring it up anymore. Embid turns 29 this year. They are no longer a young team, and only have one relevant young player in maxey.

[Moranis]

Huge difference between OKC and Philly: the endgame. Presti is going to tank with the goal of someday winning a title. All Hinkie and Philly wanted to do was win 50 games in a season, this per the many defenders of the Process that stated as such on this site.

I don't think that is true at all.  The Sixers clearly wanted to win a title.  That was the whole reason they went through the rebuild to get the foundational star to build around.  That is Embiid, they have just failed at building around him to this point (though he is still young enough they could).  Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

The Thunder though were a 48 win and then 49 win team with 2 All NBA players still in their prime and signed long term (as well as quality around them) when Presti decided to blow it up and start over.  Of course, the greatness of Chris Paul cost them a season of the tank as with Paul they were on a 50 win pace in the shortened season (44-28) before Presti decided to do the tank right and went nuclear 3 off seasons ago.  In the 20+ seasons prior to Hinkie taking over the Sixers they had 1 50 win season (12 seasons prior), didn't own all of their future draft picks, and had just Holiday looking like a potential championship level core player at any point in the future.  It is much easier to reboot a rebuild when you aren't starting from a terrible position. 

[Roy H.]

Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

I’ve avoided those debates, but the current Sixers have made it exactly as far as the Holiday / Iguodala Sixers did in the playoffs.  That can absolutely change, but to date I’m not sure that that outcome is worth several seasons of historically terrible basketball.

[Donoghus]

Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

I’ve avoided those debates, but the current Sixers have made it exactly as far as the Holiday / Iguodala Sixers did in the playoffs.  That can absolutely change, but to date I’m not sure that that outcome is worth several seasons of historically terrible basketball.

Absolutely not.

[Celtics2021]

Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

I’ve avoided those debates, but the current Sixers have made it exactly as far as the Holiday / Iguodala Sixers did in the playoffs.  That can absolutely change, but to date I’m not sure that that outcome is worth several seasons of historically terrible basketball.

For perspective, in the 9 full seasons since the Sixers started their rebuild, 17 teams have made at least one conference finals.

[bdm860]

So in sum, bad doesn't mean tanking, but the Thunder are tanking and have been for 3 seasons.

Does 3 seasons include '20 when they sold high on Westbrook and made the playoffs, or is it including this upcoming '23 season?

Because I really think they only started tanking halfway through '21.  Everything before and after that comes off more like playing the hand they were dealt to me.

Also don't think free agents is the right indicator to use here.  They have a full roster and have been drafting 5 guys per year over the last 2.  No roster room.

[SHAQATTACK]

Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

I’ve avoided those debates, but the current Sixers have made it exactly as far as the Holiday / Iguodala Sixers did in the playoffs.  That can absolutely change, but to date I’m not sure that that outcome is worth several seasons of historically terrible basketball.

Yeah I remember that Philly team , nice young core and blew it up and fired the coach I think.

[celticsclay]

Now I've said the fact that they've won 50 games multiple times would deem the process a success given just how awful the Sixers had been since Barkley, but that was never the goal of the Sixers. 

I’ve avoided those debates, but the current Sixers have made it exactly as far as the Holiday / Iguodala Sixers did in the playoffs.  That can absolutely change, but to date I’m not sure that that outcome is worth several seasons of historically terrible basketball.

Absolutely not.

I agree, and really think almost no Philly fans would argue otherwise. It seems pretty much someone would only say if they were previously bullish on the process and have to move goalposts because of lack of success.

 It’s also worth noting that most of these playoff series out of the one year with butler were not particularly competitive for making a legit run. They have a first round sweep and a 5 game loss to us as part of this. They also lost to a pretty young inexperienced hawks team.