Author Topic: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)  (Read 17859 times)

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Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2009, 01:25:01 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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i wish sexyscottish were still around....for threads like these ;D

He's making Facebook an unsafe place
for NBA refs these days  :) No kidding.

i dont even want to know about that, lol  ;D


Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2009, 01:36:50 PM »

Offline FLCeltsFan

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BTW - someone said the Jazz board was saying the refs were lopsided in their favor.  If you've got a link to that I'd like to see it.
http://celticsgreen.blogspot.com/ im assuming that was the link since i think FLcelts fan said it

Interesting some Jazz fans can agree the refs helped them out. The thing is I'm pretty sure Bavetta hates the Jazz too making yesterday more puzzling. I think if the Celtics had lost to the Mavs he might have swung this game in their favour.

From what Donaghy said in his statement was that the refs routinely got orders from above to keep games close or to influence the game so that one team won in order to keep a playoff series going longer or to influence the standings.  Stern supposedly investigated and said there was no evidence of it but what else would he say when it would indict him as well since Donaghy said the orders came from above.  Bavetta was one of the main targets of that investigation since Donaghy cited several games that he supposedly influenced and there was evidence of one sided calls in the games he listed. 

  It could have nothing to do with Bavetta hating the Celtics or the Jazz but it could be to influence the standings.  Stern could want to be sure that the Jazz make the playoffs and is helping them out until they get all their players back.  Or he could be trying to keep the standings as close as possible at the top of the league to make it more exciting down the stretch.  We wouldn't want the Celtics running away with it now, would we?   

I normally am not one for conspiracy theories, but Donaghy had some very good points and he was already convicted and got nothing out of it other than to set the record straight.   What this league needs is a new commissioner.  Stern is as crooked as they come. 

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2009, 01:38:32 PM »

Offline twinbree

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Did anyone else see the sequence where Pierce was up to the line and asked if someone could towel off the ball cause it was wet?  And then I heard Bavetta's voice, saying something like, "Come on, just take the ball and let's go."  Pierce was clearly annoyed and confused and proceeded to brick the first free throw, then walked back to the bench for a timeout clearly disgusted and then came back and missed the second free throw.  Not that I think this is an excuse- he should have made his free throws, but obviously this threw him off.  I was wondering what the big deal was for Bavetta to clean off the ball.  I've seen refs allow this all the time.  Of course the announcers didn't even notice this because they were too busy talking about Brewer's elbow or some other irrelevant, trivial matter, so I don't know if I was just seeing things due to my exhaustion or if anyone else caught it.

The whole game just really annoyed me as far as the reffing, especially watching KG leave and Scal come in and get something like 4 fouls in 2 minutes?  How is that possible?  I'm losing a lot of respect for Bavetta.  Every time I see him, I just want to tell him to retire.

Needless to say, I went to bed being very annoyed and wondering why I even stayed up that late for all that.

Yeah I noticed that and I thought it was a petty and unnecessary abuse of power. I thought Crawford had to be the biggest megalomaniac ref alive but Bavetta is right up there with him.
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Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2009, 01:52:23 PM »

Offline CeltsGM21

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Did anyone else see the sequence where Pierce was up to the line and asked if someone could towel off the ball cause it was wet?  And then I heard Bavetta's voice, saying something like, "Come on, just take the ball and let's go."  Pierce was clearly annoyed and confused and proceeded to brick the first free throw, then walked back to the bench for a timeout clearly disgusted and then came back and missed the second free throw.  Not that I think this is an excuse- he should have made his free throws, but obviously this threw him off.  I was wondering what the big deal was for Bavetta to clean off the ball.  I've seen refs allow this all the time.  Of course the announcers didn't even notice this because they were too busy talking about Brewer's elbow or some other irrelevant, trivial matter, so I don't know if I was just seeing things due to my exhaustion or if anyone else caught it.

The whole game just really annoyed me as far as the reffing, especially watching KG leave and Scal come in and get something like 4 fouls in 2 minutes?  How is that possible?  I'm losing a lot of respect for Bavetta.  Every time I see him, I just want to tell him to retire.

Needless to say, I went to bed being very annoyed and wondering why I even stayed up that late for all that.

Yeah I noticed that and I thought it was a petty and unnecessary abuse of power. I thought Crawford had to be the biggest megalomaniac ref alive but Bavetta is right up there with him.

Good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one.  I thought it was pretty unnecessary as well.  I'm not of the mindset that Bavetta hates the Celtics, I just think he might be losing it a bit.

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2009, 02:07:10 PM »

Offline tgreanier

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Seriously, we should start an honor roll for "worst calls of last night"  I don't think it'd be hard to come up with 10 - you've got

1. The touch foul on Pruitt mentioned above
2. the no-call on Pruitt's drive right before the touch foul
3. the no-call on Powe's rebound in the last minute
4. the play where Miles stepped out of bounds twice chasing a rebound, didn't re-establish position, then threw it off Pierce with one foot AGAIN out of bounds (all 2-5 feet from Bavetta)
5. Rondo getting knocked over by a big (I think maybe Harpring) on a layup attempt - he made the shot but it was a clear And-1
6. Pierce literally getting shoved into a doubled-over position by Harpring while trying to hold his position (multiple times)
7.Pierce being called for an offensive for bumping Harpring back
8. Collins getting a bogus charge on Pruitt where he was clearly still sliding his feet
9. Williams shoving Eddie House off while driving to the basket
10.  Okur grabbing Scal's arm and flailing into a called 6th foul.

That was completely off the top of my head, and it's far from every bad call made against us.  Thing was, the game was called pretty evenly until the T - I remember in particular Perk hitting a Jazz guy on a close shot, then getting hit himself on offense, with no calls for either.  At the time I thought, "well, at least they're being consistent."  Five minutes later that went completely out the window.  It's embarrassing to follow the NBA sometimes.

How about Doc playing Paul like he was playing Captain ball when he was playing cold? Personally, that was the worst call of the night for me.
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Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2009, 02:12:23 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Seriously, we should start an honor roll for "worst calls of last night"  I don't think it'd be hard to come up with 10 - you've got

1. The touch foul on Pruitt mentioned above
2. the no-call on Pruitt's drive right before the touch foul
3. the no-call on Powe's rebound in the last minute
4. the play where Miles stepped out of bounds twice chasing a rebound, didn't re-establish position, then threw it off Pierce with one foot AGAIN out of bounds (all 2-5 feet from Bavetta)
5. Rondo getting knocked over by a big (I think maybe Harpring) on a layup attempt - he made the shot but it was a clear And-1
6. Pierce literally getting shoved into a doubled-over position by Harpring while trying to hold his position (multiple times)
7.Pierce being called for an offensive for bumping Harpring back
8. Collins getting a bogus charge on Pruitt where he was clearly still sliding his feet
9. Williams shoving Eddie House off while driving to the basket
10.  Okur grabbing Scal's arm and flailing into a called 6th foul.

That was completely off the top of my head, and it's far from every bad call made against us.  Thing was, the game was called pretty evenly until the T - I remember in particular Perk hitting a Jazz guy on a close shot, then getting hit himself on offense, with no calls for either.  At the time I thought, "well, at least they're being consistent."  Five minutes later that went completely out the window.  It's embarrassing to follow the NBA sometimes.

How about Doc playing Paul like he was playing Captain ball when he was playing cold? Personally, that was the worst call of the night for me.

Yup the lack of ball movement and long jumpers for about 3 minutes was frustrating to watch.

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2009, 02:17:38 PM »

Offline FLCeltsFan

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Did anyone else see the sequence where Pierce was up to the line and asked if someone could towel off the ball cause it was wet?  And then I heard Bavetta's voice, saying something like, "Come on, just take the ball and let's go."  Pierce was clearly annoyed and confused and proceeded to brick the first free throw, then walked back to the bench for a timeout clearly disgusted and then came back and missed the second free throw.  Not that I think this is an excuse- he should have made his free throws, but obviously this threw him off.  I was wondering what the big deal was for Bavetta to clean off the ball.  I've seen refs allow this all the time.  Of course the announcers didn't even notice this because they were too busy talking about Brewer's elbow or some other irrelevant, trivial matter, so I don't know if I was just seeing things due to my exhaustion or if anyone else caught it.

I saw it too.  Totally unnecessary and it clearly rattled Pierce as he missed both FT's badly.  His next trip to the line, Bavetta was saying something to him as well which once again messed up  his concentration.   

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2009, 02:35:12 PM »

Offline TatteredOnMySleeve

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BTW - someone said the Jazz board was saying the refs were lopsided in their favor.  If you've got a link to that I'd like to see it.
http://celticsgreen.blogspot.com/ im assuming that was the link since i think FLcelts fan said it


Those are some great quotes, and im actually shocked the jazz fans admit it, most teams fans wouldnt at all...of course ill never understand when people say we are " way overhyped" ...thats not really even possible considering we're defending champs and are 44-12 this season
When you got it going, you got it going. I just keep my focus down the stretch. That's when I want the ball. I'm just not afraid to fail."-PaulPierce

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2009, 02:42:33 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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1. The touch foul on Pruitt mentioned above
2. the no-call on Pruitt's drive right before the touch foul
3. the no-call on Powe's rebound in the last minute
4. the play where Miles stepped out of bounds twice chasing a rebound, didn't re-establish position, then threw it off Pierce with one foot AGAIN out of bounds (all 2-5 feet from Bavetta)
5. Rondo getting knocked over by a big (I think maybe Harpring) on a layup attempt - he made the shot but it was a clear And-1
6. Pierce literally getting shoved into a doubled-over position by Harpring while trying to hold his position (multiple times)
7.Pierce being called for an offensive for bumping Harpring back
8. Collins getting a bogus charge on Pruitt where he was clearly still sliding his feet
9. Williams shoving Eddie House off while driving to the basket
10.  Okur grabbing Scal's arm and flailing into a called 6th foul.

Just a couple quick points - the Powe non-call was by far the worst call because it had such a huge impact on the game since it happened in the final minute. The Pruitt call was a joke, but he did technically put his hand on Williams, the problem is not calling it both ways, which is why the non-call on the preceding drive by Pruitt is much more egregious as well. I like that you pointed out Williams' push off on House. I specifically remember Collins talking about what a strong player Williams is as they showed a replay in which he was clearly giving a full push off with his right hand. Obviously he's gonna power his way to the basket if he's allowed to shove his defender out of the way. Considering the questionable offensive fouls called on the Celtics (I would definitely put the offensive off-the-ball foul called on Powe with less than a minute left in the third on your list - Pierce had a clear path to the basket and Jason Collins just dove to the ground to get a foul call and it worked - that was one even the announcers questioned.)

Here's what was interesting - they were letting everything around the basket go. That's one of the reasons Perk had such a great game. When he's allowed to be physical, he's one of the better centers in the NBA because it becomes [dang] near impossible to score around the basket when he's free to play his game.  But they were calling every touch on the perimeter by the Celtics. Thus, the Jazz end up going to the line from about 5 minutes into each quarter on. Without those constant trips to the free throw line, I don't think the Jazz top 80. The Celtics turned the ball over too much, but I'd say 3-5 of the 19 (against a bad defensive team, that's just unacceptable) were on plays that would have been foul calls at the other end.

It's just frustrating to watch the Celtics play such a fantastic defensive game, they were just on the ball at all times, their rotations were immediate, very few open shots (althought a few open 3s for Okur). The Jazz couldn't get anything going on offense barring the fact that the Celtics were in the penalty halfway through the second, less than four minutes into the third, and halfway through the fourth. But every time the Celtics made a good rotation and stayed on top of guys, they were called for body bumps, etc. It was especially frustrating having just watched a physical Spurs-Pistons game in which both teams had fouls to give in the last seconds of quarters because they were allowed to play a little. It just baffled me to watch the contrast.

From what Donaghy said in his statement was that the refs routinely got orders from above to keep games close or to influence the game so that one team won in order to keep a playoff series going longer or to influence the standings.  Stern supposedly investigated and said there was no evidence of it but what else would he say when it would indict him as well since Donaghy said the orders came from above.  Bavetta was one of the main targets of that investigation since Donaghy cited several games that he supposedly influenced and there was evidence of one sided calls in the games he listed. 

 It could have nothing to do with Bavetta hating the Celtics or the Jazz but it could be to influence the standings.  Stern could want to be sure that the Jazz make the playoffs and is helping them out until they get all their players back.  Or he could be trying to keep the standings as close as possible at the top of the league to make it more exciting down the stretch.  We wouldn't want the Celtics running away with it now, would we?   

I normally am not one for conspiracy theories, but Donaghy had some very good points and he was already convicted and got nothing out of it other than to set the record straight.   What this league needs is a new commissioner.  Stern is as crooked as they come. 

I just really don't think the NBA is running a oonspiracy to decide February games. Whether they would affect playoff series is one thing, to keep them going to increase revenue, that makes some sense, but a non-conference game in February on national TV? Why would they mess with that?

Plus, the thing to remember with Donaghy is that gamblers weren't asking him to fix the game for one team - that is too obvious. A game is "fixed" in that the ref calls way too many fouls to keep sending teams to the line in order to hit the over. Free throws give both teams more points so that you hit the over without directly deciding which team wins the game. And before you ask, the over-under last night was 200, so don't go talking fix.

Last night's officiating problems were not about corruption, they were about incompetence. Lost in the fun and games of Barkley racing Bavetta TWO YEARS AGO was Barkley's point in doing it - if an NBA referee can't outrun an extremely overweight and out-of-shape retired player (who runs backward for some of the time), he should not be in the position of officiating NBA games between world class athletes in peak physical condition. His winning the race even though he looked terribly out of shape should have set off the alarm that Bavetta is too old for this league. He needs not to retire, but to be relieved of his duties.

How about Doc playing Paul like he was playing Captain ball when he was playing cold? Personally, that was the worst call of the night for me.

Yes, that is 100% true and lost in this thread which raises valid points but misses some too.

With the wet ball thing or whatever it was, what's most important about that - far more important than Bavetta being a self-important jerk, which we all knew already - is the fact that it showed Pierce's head was completely out of the game at that point. He even pulled out his old, I'm gonna grab my leg and wince a little to make excuse for missing the first free throw as he walked to the bench for the timeout. He bricked both free throws, then when Perk grabbed the board, just stood there and called for Perk to throw him the ball, completely choreographing it for an easy Jazz steal and dunk. It might be Bavetta's fault that he's a jackass, but it's Pierce's fault that he let it get into his head and affect his team at a time when they really needed him focused.

The free throws or a made shot after the offensive board would have pushed the lead to double digits midway through the third. Instead, turnover and dunk, it's a 7 point game and before you know it 4. After that turnover, Doc should have realized that Pierce's head was not in the game at that moment, and he needed to be pulled out. Give Pierce his 3-5 minutes' rest there, then give Allen his rest when Pierce goes back in, and they'd both be rested and ready for the bulk of the third. Instead he stayed out there and didn't really heat up.

The thing is, it's never just about bad officiating - a good team overcomes bad officiating. Christ, in game 6 of the ECF last year, Salvatore decided it should go seven and made a series of blatantly horrible calls against the Celtics, including the offensive foul on the 3 Pierce made. But the Celtics powered through it by keeping their heads calm, making good decisions, tightening the D, being MORE instead of less aggressive and protecting the ball. They didn't do that last night.

And in the Lakers, Spurs and Jazz losses, what is most concerning to me is that the Celtics are not showing a killer instinct. Not only should they have won all three of those games, but they should have won all three by double digits. But they didn't put the games away when they had the chance. Turnovers, poor shot selection and general sloppy play are killing them when they have 6-10 point leads that should turn into 12-15 point leads instead of evaporating. It's like they think that's enough cushion and lose the intensity, and that, much more than one-sided officiating, is unacceptable. Bad officiating happens sometimes. Bad play shouldn't.
Go Celtics.

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2009, 02:43:38 PM »

Offline LB3533

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In the 1st half: Utah had like a 20+ FTA advantage over the C's 9+ FTA

In the 2nd half: C's had the 20+ FTA to the Jazz's 9 FTA

You know it is horrific officiating when refs try to play the "even it out game" throughout the course of the basketball game.

The refs failed to call a number of fouls for the C's in the 1st half.

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2009, 02:52:06 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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For the record, I don't think Bavetta is crooked - I just think he's bad at his job and egotistical to boot.  It's not a coincidence that Bavetta has been associated with so many questionably officiated games - in a lot of games he seems to just get annoyed with one team for one reason or another and imposes his will on the game by calling things more strictly against that team.  Don't think he's rigging the game so much as he's thinskinned and lets his feelings bias how he calls the game.  Crawford does similar things, but more often gets hung up on a particular player than a whole team. 

And whatever happened to that ex-military guy they hired to be the Referee Czar or whatever they were calling him?  Haven't heard a peep from him, and nothing has changed this season. 

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2009, 03:06:26 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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sadly, the last time I can recall a ref in the league that was respected (mostly) by players, coaches and fans was Earl Strom.  The guy stood out because he didn't give the home team discount on fouls and called it evenly.  Sad when a ref stands out for excellence simply by applying the rules fairly to both teams regardless of home court and applying the rules within the flow of the game.

He can't be any older than Dick"head" Bavetta.  Can we get him out of retirement and put Dick where he belongs?  (submit clever euphamism here)


Wrap him in a jacket and throw him in a dark hole?
would that be a latex or sheepskin 'jacket'?

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2009, 03:13:08 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Did anyone else see the sequence where Pierce was up to the line and asked if someone could towel off the ball cause it was wet?  And then I heard Bavetta's voice, saying something like, "Come on, just take the ball and let's go."  Pierce was clearly annoyed and confused and proceeded to brick the first free throw, then walked back to the bench for a timeout clearly disgusted and then came back and missed the second free throw.  Not that I think this is an excuse- he should have made his free throws, but obviously this threw him off.  I was wondering what the big deal was for Bavetta to clean off the ball.  I've seen refs allow this all the time.  Of course the announcers didn't even notice this because they were too busy talking about Brewer's elbow or some other irrelevant, trivial matter, so I don't know if I was just seeing things due to my exhaustion or if anyone else caught it.

I saw it too.  Totally unnecessary and it clearly rattled Pierce as he missed both FT's badly.  His next trip to the line, Bavetta was saying something to him as well which once again messed up  his concentration.   
Please, let's give this serious consideration.  Of course Dick would not take kindly to someone saying his balls were wet and dirty.  No wonder he was upset.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 03:23:13 PM by slamtheking »

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2009, 03:14:11 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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Why does everyone assume that Bavetta isn't crooked?  How do you know?  I don't assume anything.

The officiating is an ongoing embarrassment that Stern just keeps trying to sweep under the rug but he can't, because every night there are calls that simply boggle the mind, together with games that are obviously being called in favor of one team.

It's ruining the product, and we can only hope that when more teams start losing money the league will do something about it.

For starters, the NBA needs greatly expanded instant replay and a challenge system, like the NFL. I wouldn't even bother trying to weed out the incompetent officials, because there would be hardly anyone left.

Re: Refs/Bavetta/Injuries result of bad reffing (merged ref threads)
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Why does everyone assume that Bavetta isn't crooked?  How do you know?  I don't assume anything.

The officiating is an ongoing embarrassment that Stern just keeps trying to sweep under the rug but he can't, because every night there are calls that simply boggle the mind, together with games that are obviously being called in favor of one team.

It's ruining the product, and we can only hope that when more teams start losing money the league will do something about it.

For starters, the NBA needs greatly expanded instant replay and a challenge system, like the NFL. I wouldn't even bother trying to weed out the incompetent officials, because there would be hardly anyone left.

I assume he's not crooked because I'm a strong advocate of Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."  I consider incompetence to be interchangeable with stupidity here, which seems to fit Bavetta well.  And assume means I don't know, I'm assuming because I don't believe there's enough evidence to assume the opposite. 

I agree with everything else - the referees are the single biggest black eye on the league now that the thug culture portion of the league has settled down significantly.  Problem is that the league effectively has a tenure system for refs - once you're in, almost nothing will get you fired.  If teams can get rid of players who aren't doing their jobs well, why can't the league do the same with refs who aren't doing their jobs well?  The refs feel free to call games as they please because they know there won't be any repercussions from the league, and any public criticism of them will be immediately smacked down by Stern.