Author Topic: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team  (Read 1542 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2019, 05:07:57 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I think you've got it backwards a bit here.

Yes, Brad is a really good coach, which means he's good at getting a team lacking in talent to overperform.

But you give him a roster that is replete with talent, and yet we're not seeing the team exceed expectations.  Why?

I think there are diminishing returns on what a coach can do to make a team play better than the talent on the roster.

A great coach can take a bunch of role players and figure out how to win games they maybe ought to lose.

But if you give a great coach great talent the ceiling of the team is probably still about the same, which is to say high, but very dependent on that elite talent fitting together.

So I think it's wrong to say Brad *needs* an underachieving team.  Rather, I think it's fair to say that a great coach isn't necessarily going to make the same kind of difference with a roster flush with talent.  The expectations are already sky high and there's nowhere to go but down.


That's why I think your instinct to replace a bunch of the current supporting cast with role players who are maybe less talented but whose skills and roles are more defined is on the money.

The Celts have plenty of talent, it's true, but talent doesn't win games on its own.  You need to be able to have that talent all pulling in the same direction.  The more talented players you have on a team, the more diminishing returns you're gonna have when their skills don't necessarily complement, but instead create confusion as to who is best suited to do what.


I think the Celts would be doing better if they just had Kyrie, Tatum, Horford healthy and good to go, Smart and Hayward as glue guys / defenders, and then a bunch of veterans with well defined skills.


Of course, that's not the team.  Well that it isn't, I suppose, because it means the Celts have better depth to withstand injuries and they have assets to make moves.

But right now I think it's fair to say that the team's roster assets are not all optimized for winning right now.  They're simultaneously trying to develop guys like Tatum, Brown, Rozier, etc, rehab Hayward, and also build rapport among the core group while fleshing out the supporting cast.

That's a lot to have going on in the midst of what is supposedly a contending season.

Most contending teams have a much clearer sense of who they are and how they're going to win tough games.

I agree with your theory about diminishing returns with a great team, but an issue is Stevens has his high 3 point shooting / low FT, modern bigs / lack of emphasis on rim protection system, and it seems like it's best suited for less talented players.

When you have studs, or even in general, you need to be tailoring the system to the players you have.  That's why Pop has changed his offense so many times.  It used to be thru Duncan in the post, then with Parker's drives and movement, then Kawhi and a ball movement system and later a Kawhi-focused system (both with lots of 3 point shooting), and now they changed it again with LMA and DeRozan.

I haven't seen Stevens change what he's doing once really.  The better players you have, the less you should just be chucking up 3's.  They can do more.  Winning on 3's is how Butler gets upsets in March Madness vs the Dukes of the world.  But the thing is, Stevens isn't coaching Butler anymore.  He's coaching Duke, and I'm not sure he's figured that out yet.  I hope he does soon.

This reflects my own thinking.

Stevens has a system, and everyone has to fit it. He doesn't tailor his system to the talents of the players. Or perhaps to the values of Danny Ainge. He gets a lot of leeway. At least so far.

The shocking loss to the Cavs in the 7th game last year may have alarmed a few people. That was unexpected. All those 3P robots out there shooting 3s.

This year, the poor start, with little thought, it seemed to the chemistry of the starting 5. Playing the money.

Stevens has said he never could recruit top bigs at Butler, so he tailored his game to small ball. That doesn't always work in the NBA.

The Celtics are weak in the paint, and perhaps it reflects the Stevens' system. The closer to the basket, the easier the shot. That seems to have been lost in the 3P game.

Stevens may have to alter his ways some if he is to succeed in the NBA, and bring the Celtics to another Championship.

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2019, 05:36:46 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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I think Brad is very good coaching a team with low expectations.

We have not yet seen him coach a team with the same level of success, when there are high expectations. Perhaps all this losing is good - the expectations will be lower and then Brad can work his magic.



Is this roster (too many alphas - not enough role players) Danny's fault?

Yes and no.

I do not think many thought that Tatum would progress this quickly- but does not know yet how to take over and will a team to victory.

I think that many believed that Hayward would progress quicker.

Rozier and Brown are having difficulty adjusting to non-starting roles. And even more so, there appears to be missing the attitude of team first and willing sacrifice for the betterment of the team.

My Suggestion

Time to package some picks and 2nd level starters for excellent role players - a sharp shooter and/or a wing defensive specialist; and roll over the picks to later years.

Who can go -
Rozier
Yabusele
Brown or Hayward - They are duplicative.

Stevens is a good coach in the mold of Snyder, Stotts, and a few others. He is not a great coach. Any coach that yanks a scorching hot player just so he doesn't deviate from his scripted substitution patterns is not a great coach.

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2019, 05:45:27 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I think Brad is very good coaching a team with low expectations.

We have not yet seen him coach a team with the same level of success, when there are high expectations. Perhaps all this losing is good - the expectations will be lower and then Brad can work his magic.



Is this roster (too many alphas - not enough role players) Danny's fault?

Yes and no.

I do not think many thought that Tatum would progress this quickly- but does not know yet how to take over and will a team to victory.

I think that many believed that Hayward would progress quicker.

Rozier and Brown are having difficulty adjusting to non-starting roles. And even more so, there appears to be missing the attitude of team first and willing sacrifice for the betterment of the team.

My Suggestion

Time to package some picks and 2nd level starters for excellent role players - a sharp shooter and/or a wing defensive specialist; and roll over the picks to later years.

Who can go -
Rozier
Yabusele
Brown or Hayward - They are duplicative.

Stevens is a good coach in the mold of Snyder, Stotts, and a few others. He is not a great coach. Any coach that yanks a scorching hot player just so he doesn't deviate from his scripted substitution patterns is not a great coach.

Stevens icing a hot player .  This is my pet peeve with him mainly .  They are being PAID great money to PLAY ball .   Let them do what they do.best .

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2019, 05:46:38 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Or, perhaps, this team is poorly constructed and not as talented as previously thought?

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2019, 05:49:04 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Or, perhaps, this team is poorly constructed and not as talented as previously thought?
I don’t think it’s as simple as a lack of talent, but the construction issues are definitely real. I admit that I think you’re right on the money with your criticisms of Brown and Rozier, as they clearly don’t fit alongside our guys.

Not sure that we move either of them before the offseason, but god I hope we boot Rozier this year. Brown I’m happy to wait for because he’d likely be part of a bigger star move
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Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2019, 05:51:41 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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Difficult to coach a team with too many players that require playing time in order to maintain their trade value. These players simply need proper exposure to remain tradeable assets.

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2019, 06:38:01 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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I think Brad is very good coaching a team with low expectations.

We have not yet seen him coach a team with the same level of success, when there are high expectations. Perhaps all this losing is good - the expectations will be lower and then Brad can work his magic.



Is this roster (too many alphas - not enough role players) Danny's fault?

Yes and no.

I do not think many thought that Tatum would progress this quickly- but does not know yet how to take over and will a team to victory.

I think that many believed that Hayward would progress quicker.

Rozier and Brown are having difficulty adjusting to non-starting roles. And even more so, there appears to be missing the attitude of team first and willing sacrifice for the betterment of the team.

My Suggestion

Time to package some picks and 2nd level starters for excellent role players - a sharp shooter and/or a wing defensive specialist; and roll over the picks to later years.

Who can go -
Rozier
Yabusele
Brown or Hayward - They are duplicative.

Stevens is a good coach in the mold of Snyder, Stotts, and a few others. He is not a great coach. Any coach that yanks a scorching hot player just so he doesn't deviate from his scripted substitution patterns is not a great coach.

Stevens icing a hot player .  This is my pet peeve with him mainly .  They are being PAID great money to PLAY ball .   Let them do what they do.best .

Totally agree. How many times this year have we seen Kyrie, Tatum, Morris, or even Brown going nuclear only to be pulled out for "rest" or whatever reason Stevens keeps pulling these guys out for. He turns what could be a 35 or 40 point eruption by the player into a 25 point game on 32 minutes played. There are some games (not all but some) where guys should be allowed to stay in the game and play big minutes if they are hot. Stevens simply does not allow this.

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2019, 01:22:41 PM »

Offline rondofan1255

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Agree with OP. Expectations have Been lowered for sure

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2019, 02:09:56 PM »

Offline cltc5

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 Rad just needs to realize he’s coaching men now and not college kids.  Just start trusting your players more and light a fire where you need to

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2019, 05:31:06 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Brad Stevens just needs a healthy team.

We kicked ass last night with everyone healthy.

Re: Brad Stevens - needs a underachieving team
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2019, 05:55:15 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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So Stevens is used to only coaching kids and coaching mid level talent to play better as a unit than they play individually. So he doesn't know how to coach superstars

I guess that means we need to fire Stevens and hire Doc Rivers back since Doc didn't know how to do anything except manage superstars so they play better as a unit than they play individually.

Stevens is fine. He is a steadying force. The locker room problems could be much worse if another coach was here. The players will figure things out or else Stevens will let Ainge know who needs to go this off season.

I expect things to get better. They are healthier. The players have all vented. Players are sharing the ball pretty great over the last 6 weeks. Players are figuring out their roles and getting back to being more like themselves. I expect good things this half of the season.